Jethro Bodine
Member
I believe OSAS is false.
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The reason you cant lose your salvation is?.....
- Thread starter Kidron
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Jethro Bodine
Member
When John Mark, Barnabas' nephew, departed Paul's company on one of his missionary trips was he showing that he was, categorically and without exception, an anti-christ and was never a true believer to begin with as many believe this passage in John means?
Jethro Bodine
Member
I think what you mean is I'm defining the OSAS POV from my perspective. Of course I am. I don't agree with the OSAS POV as it is perceived by those who embrace it. But I do try to understand their perspective. I'm trying very hard to do that right now with 1 Corinthians 15.
chessman
Member
1. What verse(s) glare that Judas was ever saved prior to Satan entering him? I could be convinced by a verse that stated his salvation state, one way or the other. But simply from someone stating it, not so much. I have an opinion from a few verses that might surprise you, but I'm unaware of one that "glares" at us whether he was or was not saved pre-Easter. Or any of the rest of the twelve, for that matter.
Also, Judas died prior to Jesus' resurrection so I'm quite sure he did NOT stand firm on Paul's 1Cor 15 gospel (the passage at hand) any more than Thomas or Peter did at the time. Peter denied Jesus three times that night and Jesus even said of Peter "get behind me Satan".. Judas betrayed Jesus once that night and, Oh by the way, regretted it later. Thomas refused to believe Jesus was God until he touched Him. Etc. the point being, what is it exactly about Judas that singles him out as such a glaring example for anti-OSAS?
2. What verse(s) glare to us that Judas was ever un-saved, since I assume you think he was initially saved? Just the one that says "Satan entered into him" after he had been picked as one of the twelve? Okay, but didn't Satan influence Peter too after that? Plus, Judas died pre-Easter.
3. What verse(s) tell us that Judas will be condemned to the Lake of Fire? None, that I am aware of?
Jethro Bodine
Member
'Back to repentance'. This signifies people who had repented, but then stop being repentant. I'm left to assume this is the point you want to address since you provided no explanation of the point you want to make. But if you wish to make a different point let us know and we'll either agree or disagree with it.
Jethro Bodine
Member
No. I'm just leaving it open for someone to show me I am, if I am.
1 Ephesians 1:13-14; NIV
"When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory".
I have this assurance, OSAS.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Okay, a good, honest, calm, even respectable explanation.
The problem I have with it is, it doesn't adequately explain and connect the 'if you hold fast the word which I preached to you' part in verse 2 to what you're saying. Hey, maybe I'm dense. If you don't mind taking a little time to help me see what you're saying I would appreciate it. I know that sometimes it requires college level study skills to fully read and understand another's argument.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
Agreed, you are describing an OSAS understanding of the passage.
"...by which also (the gospel he presented) you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)
Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but you are saying that what this means is their holding fast is what shows they are genuinely reborn and their faith is not a deceitful false faith, but a genuine saving faith. Correct?
If that is correct, please weave the fact that they have NOT held fast to the message Paul preached to them into OSAS doctrine. Aren't they--according to OSAS doctrine--now showing themselves to not really have believed?
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chessman
Member
What are you talking about??? I never said anything remotely like what you just said. I never even mentioned any parables.
Jethro Bodine
Member
You see, Gregg, I'm pretty sure Paul is saying their original believing in what Paul actually preached to them (but which they have now departed from) is what will potentially be in vain and of no affect for them anymore.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Relax. This is your cue to now explain yourself and remove any possibility for misunderstanding. Sheesh!
You have addressed the parable of the unmerciful servant before. I'm now challenging your OSAS doctrine with what is written in that parable. Feel free to show me you actually do not believe any of those things I wrote about that parable and how it has been interpreted in OSAS doctrine.
Jethro Bodine
Member
I'm being forced to read between the lines to get at the point you're making.
Are you suggesting that this says the seal and guarantee of the Holy Spirit can not be removed simply by virtue of it being called a seal and a promise and a guarantee? The implication being that is what those words mean?
If this is what you are trying to suggest, is it fair to ignore other passages of scripture that tell us the seal and guarantee and promise of the Holy Spirit--which it surely is--is conditioned on the continuance of the faith that secured it in the first place?
Well it's not. Jesus didn't shed his blood so we can lose our salvation if we make a mistake. That is silly.
You must be misunderstanding those other passages.
Jethro Bodine
Member
What is silly is Jesus dying on a cross so people can believe in that death for the forgiveness of their sins and then tell people they don't have to continue in that faith to be saved on the Day of Judgment.
But if you then switch over to the OSAS argument that says true believers can't stop believing anyway, we see that what is silly is for God to issue strong and urgent messages to not stop believing to people for whom the warnings simply do not, and never will apply to.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Just so I won't be accused of creating arguments you don't have, are you of the OSAS persuasion that you can fall away from belief and still be saved, or of the persuasion that true believers can never fall away from their faith?
chessman
Member
WRT the parable:
As for 1 Cor 15; if you exegete what Paul actually says, it is another one of Paul's OSAS doctrine passages, not my OSAS doctrine . I don't even really care if OSAS is true or not. I am willing to look at any passage objectively, one way or the other. I have no reason to be tied to OSAS. You can believe that or not. It's true, though. I can assure you, though, I don't hold to it so that I can eat and drink and do whatever I desire that's sinful. I know better. God's gonna discipline and reprove me, when I do because He loves me.
The point is, 1 Cor 15:2 (or parts thereof), is certainly not an anti-OSAS proof text.
Via Paul; the only way a 'Grace of God' filled believer is not being saved is if Christ has not been raised, which is absurd. That's his message to the church in Corinth in chapter 15:1-14, etc
Just like you ripped the "vomit you out of God's mouth' phrase out of it's true context and true message, you have now done the same for the 1 Cor 15:1-2a (partial verse).
You are saying that the little phrase in there "if you hold fast to the message" is an anti-OSAS verse. It's not. That's your cue to correct my misunderstanding of your post #161 if I've misunderstood your post.
Objectively exegete Rev 3:14-19 and/or 1 Cor 15:1-11 (whether they be OSAS or anti-OSAS matters not to me) then try a parable or two.
What I said before, concerning the parables, was not exegesis but rather a much more general observation which I don't recall your reply to. I think you never replied. (Correct me if I'm wrong)
The observation I have is that Jesus specifically talked to those Pharisees/unbelievers in parables so they would NOT get saved simply by hearing His saving words to them. Should He speak to them more plainly/directly, it could very well have saved them. Must have been some pretty powerful stuff He was capable of saying, huh?
Therefore how you could ever even begin to build an anti-OSAS doctrine off of them, (since they were told to un-saved people in the first place) seems backwards from its very inception. But seeing how you've treated Rev 3 and 1 Cor 15, I can only imagine some of your ideas on the parables.
WRT 1 Cor 15:
And guess what it does not say? That saved people become unsaved by forfeiting their salvation if they don't 'hold fast' enough.
No it's not. They're your words not mine.
As for 1 Cor 15; if you exegete what Paul actually says, it is another one of Paul's OSAS doctrine passages, not my OSAS doctrine . I don't even really care if OSAS is true or not. I am willing to look at any passage objectively, one way or the other. I have no reason to be tied to OSAS. You can believe that or not. It's true, though. I can assure you, though, I don't hold to it so that I can eat and drink and do whatever I desire that's sinful. I know better. God's gonna discipline and reprove me, when I do because He loves me.
The point is, 1 Cor 15:2 (or parts thereof), is certainly not an anti-OSAS proof text.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2, 10, 14 Now I make known to you, brothers [I would never claim Paul's not talking to brothers, though he at times will talk about non-brothers], the gospel which I proclaimed to you, which you have also received, in which you also stand, by which you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the message I proclaimed to you, unless you believed to no purpose.
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me has not been in vain, but I labored even more than all of them, and not I, but the grace of God with me.
But if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, and your faith is in vain.
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me has not been in vain, but I labored even more than all of them, and not I, but the grace of God with me.
But if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, and your faith is in vain.
Via Paul; the only way a 'Grace of God' filled believer is not being saved is if Christ has not been raised, which is absurd. That's his message to the church in Corinth in chapter 15:1-14, etc
Just like you ripped the "vomit you out of God's mouth' phrase out of it's true context and true message, you have now done the same for the 1 Cor 15:1-2a (partial verse).
You are saying that the little phrase in there "if you hold fast to the message" is an anti-OSAS verse. It's not. That's your cue to correct my misunderstanding of your post #161 if I've misunderstood your post.
Objectively exegete Rev 3:14-19 and/or 1 Cor 15:1-11 (whether they be OSAS or anti-OSAS matters not to me) then try a parable or two.
What I said before, concerning the parables, was not exegesis but rather a much more general observation which I don't recall your reply to. I think you never replied. (Correct me if I'm wrong)
The observation I have is that Jesus specifically talked to those Pharisees/unbelievers in parables so they would NOT get saved simply by hearing His saving words to them. Should He speak to them more plainly/directly, it could very well have saved them. Must have been some pretty powerful stuff He was capable of saying, huh?
Therefore how you could ever even begin to build an anti-OSAS doctrine off of them, (since they were told to un-saved people in the first place) seems backwards from its very inception. But seeing how you've treated Rev 3 and 1 Cor 15, I can only imagine some of your ideas on the parables.
WRT 1 Cor 15:
I'm just reading it for what it says. Not what it doesn't say.
And guess what it does not say? That saved people become unsaved by forfeiting their salvation if they don't 'hold fast' enough.
J
jocor
Guest
Wow! I was off this thread for 24 hours and in that time you added 5 more pages of posts???
It's not by salvation works, it's only by salvation grace and love. What do you know of his grace and love Jethro. You are trying to take credit for what Jesus did on the cross, it simply doesn't work that way. There's a reason why Jesus died on the cross in perfect form, it's because human beings were born into a sinful nature and thus are not perfect. Jesus wasn't born into a sinful nature. Jesus was born into holiness through the womb of Mary.