The reason you cant lose your salvation is?.....

[agua.]

Please take the time to show me the logical fallacy of the non-OSAS doctine that I have been presenting here. I'm listening. And I've been very careful to stay right on the subject matter. It isn't necessary to divert the discussion to show that OSAS doctrine doesn't stand up to Biblical scrutiny.

The logical fallacies and disrespect of the ToS can be found here and here. Considering you committed a logical fallacy in the post above ie. " It isn't necessary to divert the discussion to show that OSAS doctrine doesn't stand up to Biblical scrutiny."( I suggest a short study on logical fallacies will help. )

Otherwise we can continue to debate whether we should debate :D

 

[reba]

GUYS play nicely the topic is.... The reason you cant lose your salvation is?.....

The topic is not discuss "this way"

 

[Gregg]

I'm not trying to change what you personally believe. But I do insist that you defend the legitimate arguments leveled against what you believe, but you are certainly entitled to hold whatever doctrine you want. I will not take that away from you. But I do want to make sure you know the valid arguments that resist that doctrine.

Answer this if you will:
What is your understanding of circumcision in the context of Col 2:9-13; i.e, what has taken place, and/or changed regarding the believer?"

"For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and having been filled, you are in Him, who is the Head of all rule and authority, in whom also you were circumcised with a circumcision not made by hands, in the putting off of the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, being buried with Him in baptism, in whom also you were raised through the faith of the working of God, raising Him from among the dead. And you, being dead in the offenses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all the offenses," (Col 2:9-13).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

How do we get out of this passage that keeping the promise and guarantee of our inheritance we have until our redemption is not contingent on continuing to believe?

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Non-OSAS plainly says you have eternal life. But it tells the whole truth about it found in the Bible....that you must believe to the very end to enter into the eternal life that faith secured for you while in this life when you first believed.

John 6:40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

Where do we learn in this passage that we don't have to continue to 'look to the Son and believe in him' to surely have and keep eternal life and be raised up at the last day? We don't. It is from the full counsel of the Word that we know that what Jesus said here is for the person who continues to look to the Son, not for the one who stops looking to the Son.

John 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God

Which you will remain to be if you continue to believe to the very end.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

Non-OSAS does not say otherwise. Justification is through faith in Christ, period. And the whole counsel of God tells us we have to continue to have faith to continue to have the justification that faith secures.

Rom 8:15-16 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

Non-OSAS isn't about living in fear, or not knowing if you're truly saved, or not. Hardly true. The exact opposite is true. If you have faith you have the surety of salvation (meanwhile OSAS says you can't be sure because if you fail what you think is faith now will be shown to not have been faith at all. Now that's worthy of fear).

Having faith is what signifies the reality of your salvation, for that is the very thing you must do to have salvation. OUr faith is the surety of our salvation. But in OSAS faith is always suspect as being able to save because a future failure of faith will reveal it to not have been able to save all along. Faith is how we know we have what God has promised--faith expressed in love for others. In OSAS you don't know in this life if you really have the faith that secures what God has promised...unless you fail. And you can't say that you not failing proves you have it because there's always tomorrow to prove you wrong.

Gal 4:4-5 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.

As jocor pointed out, in the very same letter to the Galatians, who we know at the time of writing were indeed sons of God through faith, he warns them that they lose the justification they have in Christ if they return to reliance on the law for justification. This simple fact shows it's impossible to rely on the analogy of child bearing in this life and how a human child can never cease to be a child of the parents to illustrate that a son of God can never cease to be a son of God. The analogy of sonship is to illustrate closeness and intimacy to God by reason of birthright, not that sons of God can never cease to be sons because human sons can not literally cease to be sons of the parents.

John 5:24 "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Non-OSAS plainly says you have eternal life when you believe (just not in it's entirety). But as I say, the whole counsel of God shows us that you must continue to believe to the very end to continue to not be subject to condemnation and remain crossed over from death to life.

Eph 1:3-5 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.

So which argument are you making? That everyone who believes was pre-programmed to believe before the creation of the world, therefore, it's impossible to reverse that predetermined pre-programming?

Luke 18:9-12 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

I assume you are with Kidron on this one and insist that if you say you have to believe, and believe to the end to be saved in the end that you are trusting in a self-righteous work that can not justify. So I ask you, too, "what then do I have to do to be justified?"

2 Cor 1:21-22 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

I can't make myself stand firm in Christ. That's the point. Non-OSAS understands this perfectly. But why does not being able to do it myself mean I did absolutely nothing to have what God did through Christ for me to stand firm in Christ?

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Why does OSAS add the suggestion that 'being sealed' means it can not be unsealed. When you seal your Tupperware tubs at home does that mean they can never be unsealed?

1 Peter 1:5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Through what, DRS81? What does it say that it is through that we are shielded by God's power by until the coming of the salvation in the last time?

This single verse defeats two contentions of OSAS--that you don't need faith to the end to be shielded (sealed) for salvation, and that salvation is also very much something to be given in the future, not just given to us in 'grapes of Eschol' now.

Rom 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.

Hmmm. While I agree that if you have faith now, you are indeed a son of God, can't you see in this verse that there's an element of sonship that is yet to come? IOW, our adoption as sons, secured by faith, is also a future event that has not happened yet. But OSAS insists that salvation is complete now, therefore, it is permanent.

1 Cor 6:9-11 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

The Hebrews were also sanctified by the blood of Christ (Hebrews 10:26,29 NASB), yet the author warns them to not trample on that blood by purposely choosing to sin and lose the only sacrifice for sin there is to cover that sin.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Right....'for whoever believes in him'. But how is it that OSAS claims that since salvation is so utterly not of works (that is, not of what you do) that, technically, you really don't even have to continue to believe to not perish and have eternal life? But I know that when pressed about it OSAS will then argue that a believer can never stop believing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Eph 2:4-9 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the (gift) of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

But where does it say that the trusting we do through God's gracious gift of faith is actually a damnable work of self righteousness? It doesn't. Nor does any other scripture. But OSAS insists that if I say I believe in the blood because God gave me the free gift of faith to do that, that I'm guilty of trusting in a self righteous work to be saved. But I do know where it says that doing works of the law to justified/ saved is self righteous and can not save. That is what I see in scripture.

1 Cor 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Yes, 'those who believe'. Not those who stop believing. The condition for being saved is clear. You HAVE to believe. We DO that through the supernatural, unmerited gift of faith that God gives to do that. Most in human history will reject that gift and choose to not believe.

James 1:6-8 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.

Non-OSAS is not about questioning your salvation. Quite the opposite. By the very definition of what it means to 'have faith' non_OSAS says your faith is the surety of your salvation. But in OSAS, faith is always in question until the Day of Redemption, at which time it may finally be shown to be the faith that saves, because it is at that time, and that time only, that it can no longer fail and be revealed as a fake faith that can not save.

2 Tim 2:11-13 Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; 12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; 13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

Now, ask yourself, if being faithless and disowning God are the same thing, how can God say he will disown us if we disown him, but then turn right around and say when we are faithless he will remain faithful? The point is, OSAS uses this passage to show us that God can never ever disown believers. But it's clear that God does not disown us because we are faithless, but because we disown him. The point being, disowning God and being faithless, but still trusting in Christ, are two totally separate things. Totally. An important BIBLICAL distinction (as you can see) that OSAS fails to see and acknowledge.

Heb 10:10-12 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.

The 'once and for all' doesn't mean you can stop believing and still be saved because salvation was irreversibly completed and secured in one offering of Christ by faith to God when you first believed. It means when you sin again you don't need to bring a new sacrifice of Christ to the altar to be forgiven. It's already there and able to deal with your recurring sin. Not so in the old covenant and the blood of bulls and goats. One sacrifice could only deal with the sin you committed to date. When you sinned again you had to bring another sacrifice. The author is explaining how you don't have to do that with Christ. You make your appeal for forgiveness for all sin past, present, and future, when it happens, by the one time offering of Christ's sacrifice that remains in heaven for you.

Note that in this same letter to the Hebrews, the author explains to these sanctified, saved believers that if they fall away that this one-time sacrifice for sin, which does not have to be repeatedly sacrificed for future sins, will no longer remain for them to do that (Hebrews 10:26 NASB).

Heb 10:22-23 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.

"With the full assurance that FAITH brings"

EXACTLY what non-OSAS teaches. EXACTLY!

But somehow OSAS says that to draw assurance of salvation from your believing is to be trusting in a self righteous work that can not save. It says you draw the assurance of salvation entirely from the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice alone without consideration of ANYTHING you have done, even believing.

John 10:27-29 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

Someday OSAS will have to explain how this means you yourself can not walk out of God's hand yourself. Especially since the Bible warns sanctified, believing people to not do that, or else lose the salvation they have. What we can clearly see it says is that no one else can remove you from God's hand.

Psalm 56:8 You have kept count of my tossings; put my tears in your bottle. Are they not in your book?

Luke 10:19-20 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. 20However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”

Are you referring to the place where names are written which God said he will erase if necessary?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What scripture are you looking at.

It's been a long day. We'll revisit them tomorrow as possible.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

GUYS play nicely the topic is.... The reason you cant lose your salvation is?.....

The reason you can't lose your salvation is you have faith, and are continuing to have faith in the blood of Christ for justification/salvation. Lose that faith and you lose the only reason God gives why you can't/ won't lose your salvation.

 

[agua.]

GUYS play nicely the topic is.... The reason you cant lose your salvation is?.....

The topic is not discuss "this way"

The reason you can't lose your salvation is Jesus has faith, and is continuing to have faith in the blood of Christ for justification/salvation. Jesus can't/won't Lose that faith and you can't lose the only reason God gives why you can't/ won't lose your salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Answer this if you will:
What is your understanding of circumcision in the context of Col 2:9-13; i.e, what has taken place, and/or changed regarding the believer?"

The authority and power of the sin nature--the flesh--and what it made us do has been laid aside by the power of the Holy Spirit .

But you and I both know that it is entirely possible to put ourselves back under the authority and power of the sin nature that God rescued us from and still do uncircumcised acts of the flesh (Romans 6:13 NASB).

"For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and having been filled, you are in Him, who is the Head of all rule and authority, in whom also you were circumcised with a circumcision not made by hands, in the putting off of the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, being buried with Him in baptism, in whom also you were raised through the faith of the working of God, raising Him from among the dead. And you, being dead in the offenses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all the offenses," (Col 2:9-13).

 

[agua.]

Sunday arvos are long and restful :D

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The reason you can't lose your salvation is Jesus has faith, and is continuing to have faith in the blood of Christ for justification/salvation. Jesus can't/won't Lose that faith and you can't lose the only reason God gives why you can't/ won't lose your salvation.

You're saying Jesus did the believing that secures justification/ salvation for me? I thought I have to have faith in the blood of Christ to be saved. We already know God/Jesus have faith that Jesus' blood can justify. The issue is I need to believe that to be saved.

 

[agua.]

You're saying Jesus did the believing that secures justification/ salvation for me? I thought I have to have faith in the blood of Christ to be saved. We already know God/Jesus have faith that Jesus' blood can justify. The issue is I need to believe that to be saved.

Do you believe ?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you believe ?

Of course I do. God gave me the supernatural ability to know the gospel is true (aka, 'faith', ref. Hebrews 11:1 NASB) through the testimony of the Holy Spirit (1 John 5:10 NASB) so that I could then place my trust in what he revealed to me as being true. I chose to believe. Most reject what God graciously and without merit shows them to be true about Jesus and then choose not to believe.

Now answer the question I asked: Did Jesus do the believing--which God gave his gracious enabling of faith to me to do--for me?

 

[agua.]

Of course I do. God gave me the supernatural ability to know the gospel is true (aka, 'faith', ref. Hebrews 11:1 NASB) through the testimony of the Holy Spirit (1 John 5:10 NASB) so that I could then place my trust in what he revealed to me as being true.

Cool praise Yahweh! Did this ability to believe come before or after you believed :D

Now answer the question I asked: Did Jesus do the believing--which God gave his gracious enabling of faith to me to do--for me?

Yes Jesus did and you responded, of course.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Cool praise Yahweh! Did this ability to believe come before or after you believed :biggrin

He gave me the ability to believe, then I, not Jesus, placed trust in the blood of Jesus for the forgiveness of sin. Jesus did not do my trusting for me. He gave me the ability to do it, and I was free to chose to do it, or not to do it. But somehow OSAS claims that's the works gospel Paul railed against and which can not justify. What I see in Scripture is that is the exact gospel Paul said justifies!

Yes Jesus did and you responded, of course.

No, Jesus did not do my believing/trusting for me. God gave me the ability to know the truth--a truth I could in no way know was really true by myself--and in response I chose to place my trust in that truth. But OSAS says if I say that I chose that, I'm guilty of trying to be justified by what I do. But when I ask to be shown where Paul said that is the definition of the works gospel that can not justify, nobody shows it to me.

 

[agua.]

He gave me the ability to believe, then I, not Jesus, placed trust in the blood of Jesus for the forgiveness of sin. Jesus did not do my trusting for me. He gave me the ability to do it, and I was free to chose to do it, or not to do it. But somehow OSAS claims that's the works gospel Paul railed against and which can not justify. What I see in Scripture is that is the exact gospel Paul said justifies!


No, Jesus did not do my believing/trusting for me. God gave me the ability to know the truth--a truth I could in no way know was really true by myself--and in response I chose to place my trust in that truth. But OSAS says if I say that I chose that, I'm guilty of trying to be justified by what I do. But when I ask to be shown where Paul said that is the definition of the works gospel that can not justify, nobody shows it to me.

Oky doky.

 

[Gregg]

But you and I both know that it is entirely possible to put ourselves back under the authority and power of the sin nature that God rescued us from and still do uncircumcised acts of the flesh (Romans 6:13 NASB).

ref: post #149
Since you are speaking on my behalf, I'll just sit back and listen to the two of you.

 

[agua.]

Since you are speaking on my behalf, I'll just sit back and listen to the two of you.

:D You seem to understand logical fallacies Gregg.

 

[Gregg]

:biggrin You seem to understand logical fallacies Gregg.

Yes, and learning more about them. I appreciate reading your posts. Keep the faith! [pun intended].

 

[agua.]

Yes, and learning more about them. I appreciate reading your posts. Keep the faith! [pun intended].

I heard of a man who thought he needed to tell ten good jokes to gain his salvation. No pun in ten did :D