The reason you cant lose your salvation is?.....

[Jethro Bodine]

What scripture are you looking at.

Here's one:

1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

Paul is telling them that they will be saved by the gospel which they heard and which they have taken a stand upon if they hold fast to the word of that gospel. He's telling them their salvation is contingent on them continuing to believe in the gospel he delivered to them (not contingent on them working for that salvation). If they don't continue fast in the word they received and believed and are saved by, they will lose the benefit of the believing they did do before they stopped holding fast to what they received and believed.

OSAS argues that what Paul is actually telling them is that they are saved by his gospel message if they really do believe in that message and not just have fake, vain, useless belief in that gospel message. The problem is the passage makes it clear that they really have believed in the message and really are saved.

"11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed." (1 Corinthians 15:11 NASB)

"14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain." (1 Corinthians 15:14 NASB)

"17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins." (1 Corinthians 15:17 NASB)

And we can also see the question is not whether or not they have done 'real' believing that can save them as OSAS insists. These passages ,make it clear that they really did believe and were saved. The question is whether or not they are going to continue in the original salvation message they received and really were saved by, or else forfeit the salvation they received through that message by not holding fast to it and changing it into a message that can not save them (specifically, that Christ did not rise from the dead).

 

[dadof10]

Again, we're in no position to judge, but it sure seems he's showing us exactly what the Bible says, that if you forsake the salvation you have received you will be given no opportunity to get it back, even if you want it, Esau being our illustration of the stark reality of that truth.

On this topic I agree with you....mostly. Here we part ways though, JB. I think even if we reject God after a true conversion He will continue to remain faithful. There is the example of Esau and Judas, of course, but do we know that God gave them "no opportunity" to repent and return to Him, or if they continued in their apostasy due to their own free will? There are places in Scripture that refer to "returning" to God (Joel 2 comes to mind, as does David). As you rightly said, we are in no position to judge someone's heart.

 

[dadof10]

dadof10 you can remain married no matter what the spouse does....

And EITHER PARTY can reject the other and the marraige. That's the point. The verses cited only deal with God's side of the equation, not ours. I have yet to find where Scripture teaches that we can't reject God.

 

[chessman]

"14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain." (1 Corinthians 15:14 NASB)

"17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins." (1 Corinthians 15:17 NASB)

And if Christ has not been raised ...

Has Christ been raised? Yep!
It is absurd to think otherwise. It's called a reductio ad absurdum (reducing another's argument to the absurd by taking their premise(s) to their logical conclusion for them).

Were these saved persons still unsaved, condemned, "still in their sins"? Nope! That's absurd.

Guess what else is absurd? Their faith being in vain/worthless!

Why? Because Paul knew that their faith had come via the same Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead and that also lived in them and that the one who raised Christ Jesus from the dead would also make alive their mortal bodies through his Spirit who lived in them (and lives in me).

It's absurd to think otherwise.

Non-OSAS argues that a saved believer's faith who later walks away from that true, God given faith (though never giving a Biblical example of someone but rather; 'I once knew a guy who did this') was actually worthless/vain. Paul says, umm that's wrong.

 

[dadof10]

Yes it is.

Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 6:40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

John 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God

Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

Rom 8:15-16 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

Gal 4:4-5 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.

John 5:24 "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Eph 1:3-5 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.

Luke 18:9-12 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

Luke 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

2 Cor 1:21-22 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1 Peter 1:5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Rom 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.

1 Cor 6:9-11 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Eph 2:4-9 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the (gift) of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

1 Cor 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

James 1:6-8 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.

2 Tim 2:11-13 Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; 12if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; 13if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

1 Cor 12:13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body--whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Rev 21:1-3 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”a for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

Heb 10:10-12 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.

Heb 10:22-23 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.

John 10:27-29 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

Psalm 56:8 You have kept count of my tossings; put my tears in your bottle. Are they not in your book?

Luke 10:19-20 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. 20However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”

Which one of the verses above say "it's impossible for a born again Christian to forsake God"? I don't see that concept in any of these verses.

Your wife is not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is perfect in his will. Your wife is not.

Then the Holy Spirit forces us to accept Him and remain faithful? Are you a Calvinist?

 

[dadof10]

Non-OSAS argues that a saved believer's faith who later walks away from that true, God given faith (though never giving a Biblical example of someone but rather; 'I once knew a guy who did this') was actually worthless/vain. Paul says, umm that's wrong.

Isn't it true that any example biblical or otherwise, would be met with "never saved in the first place"? There are biblical examples, they are just rejected out of hand because of your preconceived bias that it's an impossibility. Take the most glaring example, Judas. He followed Jesus for three years. He obviously believed in Him until "satan entered his heart", yet whenever he's given as an example the "was never saved in the first place" card comes out. As long as this excuse exists no progress can be made on this topic.

*EDIT* After reading WIP's post below, I need to add that this is not aimed at you, Chessman, though it could be taken that way. It is a generic complaint against the excuse outlined above. I don't know whether you hold to the "never saved in the first place" excuse or not. It just seems to come out when the non-OSAS side gives examples of apostates.

 

[WIP]

As I've been watching this thread one thing that keeps coming to my mind is why are there postings from each side declaring what the other side believes? For example, those favoring OSAS are making declarations about what non-OSAS believes and vise versa. To me this is counter-productive and quite frankly a subtle form of trolling for the sake of arguing. Is this about winning the argument or getting to the truth? Wouldn't we gain more if we stuck to explaining and defending what we believe rather than trying to twist the words of the opposition?
Reminds me of why I distaste election campaigns the way I do. We constantly hear about what one candidate claims is wrong with the opposition rather than hearing why he/she is the better choice.

 

[dadof10]

Here's one:

1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

Paul is telling them that they will be saved by the gospel which they heard and which they have taken a stand upon if they hold fast to the word of that gospel. He's telling them their salvation is contingent on them continuing to believe in the gospel he delivered to them (not contingent on them working for that salvation). If they don't continue fast in the word they received and believed and are saved by, they will lose the benefit of the believing they did do before they stopped holding fast to what they received and believed.

OSAS argues that what Paul is actually telling them is that they are saved by his gospel message if they really do believe in that message and not just have fake, vain, useless belief in that gospel message. The problem is the passage makes it clear that they really have believed in the message and really are saved.

"11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed." (1 Corinthians 15:11 NASB)

"14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain." (1 Corinthians 15:14 NASB)

"17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins." (1 Corinthians 15:17 NASB)

And we can also see the question is not whether or not they have done 'real' believing that can save them as OSAS insists. These passages ,make it clear that they really did believe and were saved. The question is whether or not they are going to continue in the original salvation message they received and really were saved by, or else forfeit the salvation they received through that message by not holding fast to it and changing it into a message that can not save them (specifically, that Christ did not rise from the dead).

Yep. Pretty obvious he's talking about a true, saving faith here. Paul preached it, they received it, they're standing in it and they're saved by it.....IF THEY HOLD FAST...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As I've been watching this thread one thing that keeps coming to my mind is why are there postings from each side declaring what the other side believes?

I'm not new to forum debates, and right from the beginning I noticed that 75% of the problem is getting the other side to even understand your argument to begin with. Most seem so absorbed with their own ideas and opinions that they don't listen to what you're saying. To make communication more effective you read back to the person what they told you. That gives them the opportunity to clarify and correct what you, the listener, has heard so you don't now start building more communication on something you misunderstood in the first place.

So, how this works is they say, 'the sky is green', and then you provide feedback by saying, 'you say the sky is green' to show that you heard, correctly, what they are saying. The problem comes in when they then insist, 'I did not say that!' (usually never respectfully and politely, but with anger and offense). You check your notes, you play the recording back, you ask again, and sure enough, they really did say the sky is green. Then you point that out to them and they get angrier and insist they don't mean the sky is green, but teal, and that you are twisting the meaning of what they are saying instead of them just politely explaining and clarifying.

Then, when you explain to them logically and with a level head that it's impossible that they can say one thing but it mean something else and you reach up and remove the green colored glasses they've been wearing they bite you. It's so predictable it's almost comical. But that's what you have to deal with in debates like this.

For example, those favoring OSAS are making declarations about what non-OSAS believes and vise versa. To me this is counter-productive and quite frankly a subtle form of trolling for the sake of arguing. Is this about winning the argument or getting to the truth? Wouldn't we gain more if we stuck to explaining and defending what we believe rather than trying to twist the words of the opposition?

Honestly, I don't it's fair to think everybody who restates their opponents argument is probably doing so for the sake of purposely frustrating the person who leveled the argument. I don't do that. I can't win anybody over to the truth doing that. As Paul shares in 1 Corinthians 3, what value is it to me on the Day of Judgment to do something that leads people away from the truth that I want to be there with me as successful work I've done in the kingdom? So I restate arguments so I'm not guilty of not having carefully understood the argument I'm resisting, and to open up the opportunity to show the person that what they are so sure they say is true simply cannot be, whether they at first see that or not. That way if I win a few lurkers over to the truth they will be a crown of praise and reward for me on that Day, and not the regrettable loss of work that goes into the fire instead.


Okay, back to the debate, lol.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yep. Pretty obvious he's talking about a true, saving faith here. Paul preached it, they received it, they're standing in it and they're saved by it.....IF THEY HOLD FAST...

Maybe you remember that it is your forum input that convinced me to stop two stepping the OSAS argument. I knew in my heart that it was flawed, but I persisted in defending aspects of it (thus the 'two stepping'). Then you took the argument being defended in OSAS and showed how very insecure, not secure, it really is. I had to make a choice to publicly and honestly say your rebuttal had merit and that I needed to go with the truth.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yep. Pretty obvious he's talking about a true, saving faith here. Paul preached it, they received it, they're standing in it and they're saved by it.....IF THEY HOLD FAST...

Once the 'green glasses' came all the way off (ref. post #160, lol) these words, for me, are now as plainly understood as they are plainly written.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And if Christ has not been raised ...

Has Christ been raised? Yep!
It is absurd to think otherwise. It's called a reductio ad absurdum (reducing another's argument to the absurd by taking their premise(s) to their logical conclusion for them).

Were these saved persons still unsaved, condemned, "still in their sins"? Nope! That's absurd.

Guess what else is absurd? Their faith being in vain/worthless!

Why? Because Paul knew that their faith had come via the same Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead and that also lived in them and that the one who raised Christ Jesus from the dead would also make alive their mortal bodies through his Spirit who lived in them (and lives in me).

It's absurd to think otherwise.

I see your argument. I really do. But it simply does not reconcile with the plain words right in the passage:

"...the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you..." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

What funny glasses am I wearing that makes 'if you hold fast the word' mean 'if you hold fast the word'? I've reread your post carefully twice, and unless I am mistaken you didn't even address verses 1 and 2 directly. Did you? If you're simply addressing it indirectly, draw a plain line between your argument and the plain words of verses 1 and 2.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yep. Pretty obvious he's talking about a true, saving faith here. Paul preached it, they received it, they're standing in it and they're saved by it.....IF THEY HOLD FAST...

Oh, and by the way. I've found it necessary to remove the duplicity of the OSAS doctrine before you can even begin to hope to make any headway in debating it.

OSAS says (address doctrine, not people ) that the person who falls away was never saved to begin with, and says that the person who really is saved can not fall away (I'm completely confident that is indeed what OSAS says). I found you have to first get OSAS to nail down which one applies in the particular passage under debate and go from there. I've found that OSAS doesn't stand up to the scrutiny of either scenario. But that you have to first nail down which scenario applies to show that.

For example, in the Hebrews passages, if the people who fall away aren't really saved to begin with (yes, that has been argued) then the author is saying they have no opportunity to come to repentance and be saved. If the people who fall really are saved then the author is laying a baseless, theoretical punishment that doesn't even apply to them, and can't apply to them, on them. And then to explain that, the punishment is reduced to that of loving chastisement reserved for the sons of God, not the final punishment reserved for the ADVERSARIES of God as the text says (Hebrews 10:27 NASB).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Non-OSAS argues that a saved believer's faith who later walks away from that true, God given faith (though never giving a Biblical example of someone but rather; 'I once knew a guy who did this') was actually worthless/vain. Paul says, umm that's wrong.

So, you're saying that in the parable of the unmerciful servant (Matthew 18:23-35 NASB) that the unnamed person who had his forgiveness rescinded because of the contempt he showed for the forgiveness he himself had received is actually a completely and baseless illustration that 1) does not, and can not happen, and 2) that it really isn't what the kingdom can be compared to, even though that's what the passage says, and that 3) the Father in heaven really won't do this to forgiven people who do what the unmerciful servant did, even though the passage says he will?

Oh, and that 4) the debt the servant had really can be paid by him, contrary to what the passage says, and that when he pays it he will be released from him sentence (the point being, his punishment is not eternal, but only temporary, as opposed to those who were never forgiven by the king in the first place and who are punished forever.)

Take this feedback and make any corrections or clarifications you see should be made so there are no misunderstandings. Then we'll talk about them.

 

[Gregg]

Here's one:

1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

Paul is telling them that they will be saved by the gospel which they heard and which they have taken a stand upon if they hold fast to the word of that gospel. He's telling them their salvation is contingent on them continuing to believe in the gospel he delivered to them (not contingent on them working for that salvation). If they don't continue fast in the word they received and believed and are saved by, they will lose the benefit of the believing they did do before they stopped holding fast to what they received and believed.

Yes, Paul was speaking to Christians in 1Cor 1:15:1-2. But he was saying if they received the Gospel as he preached it, then that Gospel has saved and is saving them [Paul's Gospel as he received it: Christ died for our sins, was buried, and was raised from the dead (1Cor 15:3-4)]

But, they were being persuaded to think that Christ was not raised from the dead (1Cor 15:12-13). That thought was contrary to what Paul preached, and they would not have had salvation without acknowledging Christ's Resurrection (Rom 10:9).

Paul was saying if their salvation in Christ did not acknowledge His Resurrection, that [erroneous] belief was in vain.

- - -

1Cor 15:1-2 is not a proof that we must continue to believe to remain saved; but rather it states one must hear and receive the Gospel as it Paul presented it - not allowing others to redefine what Paul said.

If the Corinthian Christians had believed from the beginning that there was no Resurrection, then they were not saved in the first place - because salvation depends upon Christ's Resurrection.

 

[DRS81]

Jethro Bodine I'm confused. Do you believe that OSAS is true or false.

 

[chessman]

"...the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you..." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)
... you didn't even address verses 1 and 2 directly. Did you? If you're simply addressing it indirectly, draw a plain line between your argument and the plain words of verses 1 and 2.

I'm. OSAS. I have no problem reading 1 Cor 15:1-2 with clear glasses. Although I would at least read his whole thought/sentence.

I didn't address it because it addresses the topic nicely. That b the point; If you are reborn (saved) via God's spirit, you do hold fast to the gospel. Otherwise it was a vain belief to begin with. That's not anti-OSAS.

What funny glasses am I wearing that makes 'if you hold fast the word' mean 'if you hold fast the word'?

I didn't present a "you are wearing funny glasses" accusation/argument. Did I?

I restate arguments so I'm not guilty of not having carefully understood the argument I'm resisting,
[/QUOTE]. Who stated you are wearing funny glasses as an argument?

 

[iLOVE]

Hebrews 6:4-6 New Living Translation (NLT)
4 For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— 6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.

 

[Gregg]

Oh, and by the way. I've found it necessary to remove the duplicity of the OSAS doctrine before you can even begin to hope to make any headway in debating it.

OSAS says (address doctrine, not people ) that the person who falls away was never saved to begin with, and says that the person who really is saved can not fall away (I'm completely confident that is indeed what OSAS says). I found you have to first get OSAS to nail down which one applies in the particular passage under debate and go from there. I've found that OSAS doesn't stand up to the scrutiny of either scenario. But that you have to first nail down which scenario applies to show that.

You are defining the OSAS perspective from your point of view. 'The art of diplomacy is to let someone else have your way.'

 

[iLOVE]

Hebrews 6:4-6 New Living Translation (NLT)
4 For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— 6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.

Judas was baptizes. Judas baptizes others., Judas was anointed. Judas was empowered. Judas cast out Devils. Judas healed the sick. Judas preached the gospel. Was Judas saved? Or did He go to hell?

24And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen 25to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place." Acts 1:24-25 NASB

Warnings Against Denying the Son
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us... 1 John 2:18-27 NIV