The reason you cant lose your salvation is?.....

[DRS81]

I like OSAS because it doesn't require me to keep believing in the promise to attain the promise. That's comforting.....to my flesh.

You still are not getting it, it hasn't click yet for you. The reason you keep believing is not because of any good works you are doing. It's because the holy spirit never leaves you Jethro.

 

[dadof10]

1. What verse(s) glare that Judas was ever saved prior to Satan entering him? I could be convinced by a verse that stated his salvation state, one way or the other. But simply from someone stating it, not so much. I have an opinion from a few verses that might surprise you, but I'm unaware of one that "glares" at us whether he was or was not saved pre-Easter. Or any of the rest of the twelve, for that matter.

Hummm....maybe I shouldn't just assume so much. The only view I've ever heard on the apostles is that they were all saved but Judas before the resurrection. You obviously don't hold that so let me ask you to clarify your position before I move on.

Also, Judas died prior to Jesus' resurrection so I'm quite sure he did NOT stand firm on Paul's 1Cor 15 gospel (the passage at hand) any more than Thomas or Peter did at the time.

Do you believe that Peter was saved before the resurrection? Do you believe salvation was possible for the apostles before the resurrection?

Peter denied Jesus three times that night and Jesus even said of Peter "get behind me Satan".. Judas betrayed Jesus once that night and, Oh by the way, regretted it later. Thomas refused to believe Jesus was God until he touched Him. Etc. the point being, what is it exactly about Judas that singles him out as such a glaring example for anti-OSAS?

Before Peter denied Him, he made his profession of faith "you are the Christ, the Son of the living God". Do you think Peter was saved at this moment?

2. What verse(s) glare to us that Judas was ever un-saved, since I assume you think he was initially saved? Just the one that says "Satan entered into him" after he had been picked as one of the twelve? Okay, but didn't Satan influence Peter too after that? Plus, Judas died pre-Easter.

What is the significance of "pre-Easter" in relation to this topic? I don't know if you believe that salvation could only come after the resurrection or not. There are examples of Jesus telling people that "your faith has saved you", pre-Easter.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I must add here that Judas always called Jesus rabbi, he never called him Lord.
I think there is something to this.

 

[Deborah13]

Hummm....maybe I shouldn't just assume so much. The only view I've ever heard on the apostles is that they were all saved but Judas before the resurrection. You obviously don't hold that so let me ask you to clarify your position before I move on.

Do you believe that Peter was saved before the resurrection? Do you believe salvation was possible for the apostles before the resurrection?

Before Peter denied Him, he made his profession of faith "you are the Christ, the Son of the living God". Do you think Peter was saved at this moment?

What is the significance of "pre-Easter" in relation to this topic? I don't know if you believe that salvation could only come after the resurrection or not. There are examples of Jesus telling people that "your faith has saved you", pre-Easter.

There were tons of people saved in the OT who are never mentioned by name. They just had to wait for the Messiah to be manifested, but they were saved by grace and faith through the promise.

 

[Butch5]

When I ask Joe Christian is so and so saved, he says, I don't know only God can see the heart yet when I ask if Judas was saved it's a definite no. Theology driving the answer?

 

[dadof10]

I must add here that Judas always called Jesus rabbi, he never called him Lord.
I think there is something to this.

Maybe, but I don't think it proves anything by itself. Maybe a piece of the puzzle.

 

[dadof10]

There were tons of people saved in the OT who are never mentioned by name. They just had to wait for the Messiah to be manifested, but they were saved by grace and faith through the promise.

I agree, I just don't know whether Chessman does.

 

[dadof10]

When I ask Joe Christian is so and so saved, he says, I don't know only God can see the heart yet when I ask if Judas was saved it's a definite no. Theology driving the answer?

Lol....naaaahhh. How can you even think such a thing...

 

[Deborah13]

When I ask Joe Christian is so and so saved, he says, I don't know only God can see the heart yet when I ask if Judas was saved it's a definite no. Theology driving the answer?

Maybe because of this scripture...
YLT
Joh 17:12 when I was with them in the world, I was keeping them in Thy name; those whom Thou hast given to me I did guard, and none of them was destroyed, except the son of the destruction, that the Writing may be fulfilled.
G648 - from G622 - perish, lost, destroyed, etc.

 

[DRS81]

I like OSAS because it doesn't require me to keep believing in the promise to attain the promise. That's comforting.....to my flesh.

It's not your job to attain the promise. The promise is a gift from God, once you have received it God is not taking the gift back. That's why it's called a gift. If you give a gift to your girlfriend on her birthday do you take it back? It's the same thing with God. God gives you his holy spirit as a gift and does not take it back.

 

[chessman]

1. What verse(s) glare that Judas was ever saved prior to Satan entering him?

2. What verse(s) glare to us that Judas was ever un-saved,

3. What verse(s) tell us that Judas will be condemned to the Lake of Fire? None, that I am aware of?

The only view I've ever heard on the apostles is that they were all saved but Judas before the resurrection.

I had asked you what Scriptures glared Judas' salvation state. Not so much about an opinion poll.

Do you believe that Peter was saved before the resurrection? Do you believe salvation was possible for the apostles before the resurrection?

yes and yes
However, you are the one that said Judas was a glaring example of a person losing their salvation, so I asked you for the Scriptures that glare this to you. It's your turn to post them now.

let me ask you to clarify your position before I move

. Can you post the Scriptures that tell us Judas' salvation status before u move on?

What is the significance of "pre-Easter" in relation to this topic?

The immediate topic was about Paul's message of the Gospel's power (death, burial and resurrection) to the Corinth church in 1 Cor 15. That's all I meant. Judas didn't hear that.

There are examples of Jesus telling people that "your faith has saved you", pre-Easter.

Yes, I know. Actually, way way pre-Easter. But i agree, none the less.

I was really looking for you to post the Scripture(s) that glared out to you that Judas lost his salvation though.

 

[Butch5]

Maybe because of this scripture...
YLT
Joh 17:12 when I was with them in the world, I was keeping them in Thy name; those whom Thou hast given to me I did guard, and none of them was destroyed, except the son of the destruction, that the Writing may be fulfilled.
G648 - from G622 - perish, lost, destroyed, etc.

But that assumes OSAS, that's my point. It could just as easily be that Judas did believe, was "saved," and turned away.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As I understand this.....
For the OSAS their hope is not based on their ability to always be faithful but on His faithfulness to fulfill the salvation promise for those who turn to Him.

"...ability to always be faithful..." = Our works of obedience.

"...turn to Him." = Our trust in the blood of Christ.

And so it is in non-OSAS that one's hope is not based on one's ability to always be faithful (perform works of righteousness), but on His faithfulness to fulfill the salvation promise, which we rely on by placing our trust in Him to do that--IOW, by believing in the blood of Christ.

Can you see the difference between 'being faithful', and 'faith', in what I said? God will remain faithful when we are faithless (that is, we lack in our ability to always be obedient). But God will (eventually) forsake us if we first forsake him by turning away from the hope we have of having our imperfection forgiven by the blood of Christ.

The difference between non-OSAS and OSAS being you really can have that hope and then forsake it in non-OSAS, while OSAS says it's impossible that you had ever secured the hope in the first place if you forsake it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's not your job to attain the promise.

Even you said one must accept it...you know, have faith in it. That's how we 'attain' the promise. That's doing something. But since that is doing something, the church decided there's something wrong with that, because they think that Paul was saying that any and all 'doing' is trying to earn your own salvation. But I see where he contrasts the 'doing' of believing with the 'doing' of the righteous works of the law--the doing of works of the law to somehow show God you're righteous and deserve his official declaration of righteousness as payment for being righteous. The church went way wrong on this thing.

The promise is a gift from God, once you have received it God is not taking the gift back. That's why it's called a gift.

It's called a gift because you did not earn it by merit of your ability to earn a declaration of right standing from God. That does not mean you don't do anything to lay hold of it. It means God does not owe it to you because you are righteous in and of yourself.

If you give a gift to your girlfriend on her birthday do you take it back? It's the same thing with God. God gives you his holy spirit as a gift and does not take it back.

(If I had a girlfriend, I'd have a lot more things to worry about than taking a gift back from her, lol......I'm married).

You're abusing the analogy. Justification/ salvation is not a birthday gift. It is a declaration of righteousness that you did not perform perfectly righteous to get. It was given to you apart from your effort to deserve it, thus the nature of it being a gift. But that hardly means you can not do something to not deserve it. Trample on it like an unholy thing and you will most assuredly not deserve the free gift of being justified through the wiping away of your sin debt.

We are probably not in disagreement with this. What we disagree with about is OSAS says only unsaved people can trample on the free gift and forfeit it as a result, while non-OSAS says saved people can trample on the free gift and forfeit it as a result.

 

[turnorburn]

Did somebody say Judas was a believer at one time, what did Jesus say about Judas in..

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

tob

 

[DRS81]

Even you said one must accept it...you know, have faith in it. That's doing something. But since that is doing something, the church decided there's something wrong with that, because they think that Paul was saying that any and all 'doing' is trying to earn your own salvation. But I see where he contrasts the 'doing' of believing with the 'doing' of the righteous works of the law--the doing of works of the law to somehow show God you're righteous and deserve his official declaration of righteousness as payment for being righteous. The church went way wrong on this thing.

Yes having faith is doing something, but once you obtain that faith God will never let you go. For example say John Smith an atheist came to faith in 1971, can John Smith just wake up one day 43 years later and realize he was wrong and that there was no God. No of course not, why? Because 43 years later the holy spirit is still inside of him regardless of whatever sin or mistake or faithlessness he aquired. Because 43 years ago he accepted Jesus as his savior.

It's called a gift because you did not earn it by merit of your ability to earn a declaration of right standing from God. That does not mean you don't do anything to lay hold of it. It means God does not owe it to you because you are righteous in and of yourself.

I'm specifically talking about whether one can lose or not lose their salvation. To lay hold of it, what do you mean?

(If I had a girlfriend, I'd have a lot more things to worry about than taking a gift back from her, lol......I'm married).

You're abusing the analogy. Justification/ salvation is not a birthday gift. It is a declaration of righteousness that you did not perform perfectly righteous to get. It was given to you apart from your effort to deserve it, thus the nature of it being a gift. But that hardly means you can not do something to not deserve it. Trample on it like an unholy thing and you will most assuredly not deserve the free gift of being justified through the wiping away of your sin debt.

Why would a born again christian trample on the gift of salvation. There is no such story.

 

[dadof10]

I had asked you what Scriptures glared Judas' salvation state. Not so much about an opinion poll.

yes and yes
However, you are the one that said Judas was a glaring example of a person losing their salvation, so I asked you for the Scriptures that glare this to you. It's your turn to post them now.

. Can you post the Scriptures that tell us Judas' salvation status before u move on?

The immediate topic was about Paul's message of the Gospel's power (death, burial and resurrection) to the Corinth church in 1 Cor 15. That's all I meant. Judas didn't hear that.


Yes, I know. Actually, way way pre-Easter. But i agree, none the less.

I was really looking for you to post the Scripture(s) that glared out to you that Judas lost his salvation though.

There is no Scripture that says "...and Judas had a true, saving faith, not a said faith." I suspect (though I really don't know) you wouldn't accept it if Scripture did actually say this. You say " I have an opinion from a few verses that might surprise you, but I'm unaware of one that "glares" at us whether he was or was not saved pre-Easter. Or any of the rest of the twelve, for that matter" and "Also, Judas died prior to Jesus' resurrection so I'm quite sure he did NOT stand firm on Paul's 1Cor 15 gospel (the passage at hand) any more than Thomas or Peter did at the time."

When asked if you think Peter was saved, you answer "yes", but yet you're unsure whether the evidence is "glaring" enough? HUH? Is "you are the Christ, the son of the living God" not glaring enough for you? What about "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy we have been born anew to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and to an inheritance which is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."? How about "Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: 2 May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord."? You are sure Peter is saved, yet the evidence is not "glaring"?

Again, I submit that no matter the evidence presented in the case of Judas, you would not accept it. The verses in favor of Peter's salvation are BEYOND glaring, yet you SEEM unsure.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

By the very definition of what it means to 'have faith' OSAS says your faith is the security of your salvation.

That's what NON-OSAS says. It says, as long as you maintain your faith in Christ you are saved. The difference in OSAS is you can never know for sure that the faith you have today is really saving faith or not because it says if it fails it was never saving faith to begin with.

But in Non-OSAS, faith is always in question until the Day of Redemption.

No. It is in OSAS that faith is in question, because as I said it has to wait until the day of redemption to see if it ever got revealed as a fake faith that can not save by whether it failed or not. That waiting period will only end when a person dies. So OSAS can never know for sure they had the faith that saves until they are dead.

Meanwhile, in NON-OSAS, what is in question is if the saving faith you have will endure to the end. That is why the Bible exhorts us to have a strong, growing faith so it will endure to the end so you can be saved by that faith. But in the meanwhile, if you have faith, you can take comfort in the fact that you are at that moment, while you are still very much alive, you know that you are very much saved. That's the security of faith. You can't take comfort in a faith you don't yet know is a saving faith as OSAS says faith is (because you can't know for sure until it fails, not simply by if it is presently not failing).

2 Tim 2:11-13 Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; 12if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; 13if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

[...]

3. Disowning God or refusing to acknowledge his presence is not the same as an apostate leaving his faith for good. That's not what it's saying. Christians disown God by willfully sinning and then repenting once again, but it has no effect on their salvation. An apostate never even came to salvation to begin with. 4. If we are faithless, he will remain faithful. Meaning if we sin, the holy spirit will convict us and God will never ever stop loving us.

How is it that you can't see that you did exactly what I said OSAS does? It fails to distinguish between 'being faithless', and 'disowning God'. Being faithless is sinning in weakness or ignorance while growing up into the forgiveness of God you cling tenaciously to. Disowning God, on the other hand, is turning your back on that forgiveness altogether. God has you covered for the faithless part. What he can't and won't do is continue to 'own' you when you disown him. Paul plainly says that. Plainly. And even you acknowledged that he is talking to Christians. Christians who endure with Christ, and Christians who do not endure, but instead disown Christ.

It says he's faithful when you're faithless, and he disowns you when you disown him. This shows that being faithless, and disowning God are two completely different things. OSAS tries to make disowning God the same as being faithless, even though the passage plainly says each has a different outcome. Just the fact that they have two different outcomes shows they are two completely different things.

Scripture never says he will erase our names from the book, and thank the Lord you're wrong ha.

"May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous." (Psalm 69:28 NASB)

'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments ; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." (Revelation 3:5 NASB)

See? If you endure to end, being an overcomer, you will not be, as David says, "blotted out of the book of life", and "not recorded with the righteous" and Christ will confess your name before the Father. You will not be disowned by Christ, because you did not disown him (Matthew 10:32-33 NASB), but instead endured to the end, being an overcomer (Revelation 2:26 NASB).

Why are we rejoicing if our names can be erased.

Because it is presently written there (if you are believing in Christ). What's so hard to understand about that?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why would a born again christian trample on the gift of salvation. There is no such story.

Ask the unmerciful servant (Matthew 18:23-35 NASB)

Personally, I'm like allenwynne......I don't know why. I just know the Bible talks about those who do. I simply don't know why some people don't appreciate the forgiveness they have received. I can't relate. But just because I can't relate to and understand it doesn't mean it can't happen in somebody else.

 

[DRS81]

"May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous." (Psalm 69:28 NASB)

This scripture is not talking about born again christians. These are prophecies of the destruction of Christ's persecutors.

Psalm 69:27 Charge them with crime upon crime; do not let them share in your salvation.

Ask the unmerciful servant (Matthew 18:23-35 NASB)

Matthew 18:23-35 has nothing to do with whether you can lose your salvation. It's a parable about mercy and forgiveness.

If I may ask, are you a born again christian. Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior Jethro.