The reason you cant lose your salvation is?.....

[Deborah13]

This was concerning PETER'S salvation state, not Judas'. You said there was not "glaring" evidence for the salvation of any of "the twelve". My point is, there is overwhelming evidence that Peter was saved, yet you don't think so. I have already said that aren't any verses that speak to "Judas' salvation state". Is this all you'll accept?

I think that the fact that Judas was called by Christ to be a disciple is glaring proof that he was saved. Is it possible for Christ to call a person to discipleship, for that person to accept, yet not be saved?

What does John 6:64 say to you? These are Jesus' words when He is speaking to His disciples.

Joh 6:59 These things he said in a synagogue, teaching in Capernaum;
Joh 6:60 many, therefore, of his disciples having heard, said, `This word is hard; who is able to hear it?'
....
Joh 6:63 the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;
Joh 6:64 but there are certain of you who do not believe;' for Jesus had known from the beginning who they are who are not believing, and who is he who will deliver him up,

 

[chessman]

You said:

There are biblical examples, ... Judas.

Now you say:

I have already said that aren't any verses that speak to "Judas' salvation state".

Once you said:

they are just rejected out of hand because of your preconceived bias that it's an impossibility.

I would NOT reject Judas out of hand and i would us Judas as a biblical example proving OSAS wrong if there were any verses that spoke to his salvation state changing from saved to unsaved.

But since you and I now agree that there aren't any that do, I will not be using him as an example of someone that glares to us that OSAS is not true. How bout you?

 

[dadof10]

You have the choice to accept his gift or not,
but once you've accepted the gift of salvation you cannot return it back to God.

Why not? I don't think Scripture teaches that a believer is forced to keep the gift of salvation.

 

[dadof10]

By this type of thinking Pharaoh was a man of God?

Huh? Jesus made pharaoh a disciple?

Judas was called into a Position. Judas was a thief from the beginning and what position was he given. He was the treasurer, he held the bag. If he hadn't had that position maybe he would not have hung around at all.
God can use anyone to fulfill a position to bring about His plan. Just as He did Pharaoh.
Seems to me, we are talking about major positions in His plan of redemption.

You use the word disciple as though there is some power in that word. It is a position just like an elder or a pastor. That does not mean that all those called elders, disciple, etc. are saved, does it? If I were asked to join a church as a member and I did, would not mean that I believe what they believe?
Judas was a member of a group called the disciples but that doesn't mean he was a believer.

Luke 6:13 says Jesus called his disciples together and chose apostles from among them. Disciple is a broader group than Apostle. Apostle is certainly a position, or more accurately an office (bishopric), but disciple is not. I don't think there is any power attached to the word, only that it signifies someone who has been "called out". Remember, it was Jesus who chose these men, they didn't just join Him like a club. According to Merriam-Webster, disciple means:
"one who accepts and assists in spreading the doctrines of another: as a: one of the twelve in the inner circle of Christ's followers according to the Gospel accounts b: a convinced adherent of a school or individual."

It's more than just a "member of a group".

 

[dadof10]

You said:

Now you say:


Once you said:


I would NOT reject Judas out of hand and i would us Judas as a biblical example proving OSAS wrong if there were any verses that spoke to his salvation state changing from saved to unsaved.

But since you and I now agree that there aren't any that do, I will not be using him as an example of someone that glares to us that OSAS is not true. How bout you?

As has been stated numerous times on this and many other forums, the word "Trinity" is not in Scripture either, yet you hold the concept. Because it doesn't say "Judas was saved" doesn't necessarily mean the concept isn't there.

I also asked twice now: "I think that the fact that Judas was called by Christ to be a disciple is glaring proof that he was saved. Is it possible for Christ to call a person to discipleship, for that person to accept, yet not be saved?" Remember, "fill in the blank"?Telling...

Also, I would submit that it's more logical, all things being equal, that the burden of proof is on you to prove he didn't have faith. He was called by Christ, accepted the call, elevated to Apostle, gave up his life for three years to follow Jesus, was sent to heal and teach at the commission and was included in everything "the twelve" were. It seems logical to assume he believed in Jesus and accepted His teachings as much as anyone else who was considered a disciple, at least in the beginning, unless other evidence is presented. Do you have any that the "state of his salvation" was "unsaved"?

 

[DRS81]

Why not? I don't think Scripture teaches that a believer is forced to keep the gift of salvation.

Show me scripture where it says a believer can return the gift of salvation back to God.

 

[dadof10]

Show me scripture where it says a believer can return the gift of salvation back to God.

Well, I think that's what "unless you hold fast" means. This assumes if you don't hold fast to your faith you will lose it, not necessarily give it back.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Well, I think that's what "unless you hold fast" means. This assumes if you don't hold fast to your faith you will lose it, not necessarily give it back.

Galatians 3:2-3; NIV
"Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh"?

The truth is, if "holding on" was a requirement to get into heaven, then none of us would make it there.

 

[DRS81]

Well, I think that's what "unless you hold fast" means. This assumes if you don't hold fast to your faith you will lose it, not necessarily give it back.

You can't lose your salvation. There is no such story of the Holy Spirit indwelling you, then 20 years later leaving you. Silliness.

 

[Deborah13]

Huh? Jesus made pharaoh a disciple?

God raised up Pharaoh into a position. He used Pharaoh to fulfill His plan. Does that mean that Pharaoh was a man of God, is he an OT saint? No
God chose Judas, just as He did the others, into a position and used Judas to fulfill His plan. Does that mean Judas was a man of God, a believer in the Messiah?
I believe that Jesus said he was not. According to John 6:64.
If you think I am reading that incorrectly please show me how.

Luke 6:13 says Jesus called his disciples together and chose apostles from among them. Disciple is a broader group than Apostle. Apostle is certainly a position, or more accurately an office (bishopric), but disciple is not. I don't think there is any power attached to the word, only that it signifies someone who has been "called out". Remember, it was Jesus who chose these men, they didn't just join Him like a club. According to Merriam-Webster, disciple means:
"one who accepts and assists in spreading the doctrines of another: as a: one of the twelve in the inner circle of Christ's followers according to the Gospel accounts b: a convinced adherent of a school or individual." It's more than just a "member of a group".

Jesus did not choose them, the Father gave them to Him.
Because God chooses to raise someone up to a position, even an Apostle, does that mean they are saved?
I think the problem is in using the term "called", and assuming 'called' means saved.

I don't care what man has written in a dictionary....what does scripture say.

I'm not saying that I am right but give me something from scripture about Judas. I have given three I think.

 

[chessman]

He was called by Christ, accepted the call, elevated to Apostle, gave up his life for three years to follow Jesus, was sent to heal and teach at the commission and was included in everything "the twelve" were.

Wow, he was a busy man.

It seems logical to assume he believed in Jesus ...

Hmm, I'm not quite sure that common sense would indicate to me that a man walkin around the region for years with the Creator of the universe, incarnate on Earth would be stealing from Him. But maybe that makes sense to you. Personally, I'd be scared to steal from God. But maybe he was saved. I just don't know when or for how long cause the Bible doesn't say. That's my point.

As for your question to me, I don't know that Judas either was or was not saved. It wouldn't surprise me either way.

But Jesus does, and always did. Nothing surprises Jesus, in my opinion.

 

[Deborah13]

But that assumes OSAS, that's my point. It could just as easily be that Judas did believe, was "saved," and turned away.

Sorry Butch, I think I missed this post?

I not assuming OSAS, I'm not convinced of it myself.
I was only answering as to why someone might believe that Judas was lost whether they be OSAS or non-OSAS.

 

[turnorburn]

i know this won't make any difference to you dadof10 because of the scripture I've already given you, the one about Judas being a devil but I'll add this one just in case..

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

tob

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is how I understand this.....
We need to keep reading.....
1Co 15:16 for if dead persons do not rise, neither hath Christ risen,
1Co 15:17 and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins;

So what is Paul saying. He is saying that if they don't believe that Jesus was raised from the dead, they are Not saved...

He's explaining to them that the believing they did when they first heard his gospel, which included the resurrection of Christ, will be for naught if they abandon it and start believing a gospel that doesn't include the resurrection of Christ.

...and never were. A vain faith is not complete, it can't save.

So when he says, 'unless' your faith was a 'vain' faith and it cannot saved you.
He says the words that he first preached to them is the gospel that saves them and they believed that that was true. But now he hears that some did not believe in the resurrection and if they don't believe that part of the gospel they are not saved.

Never were saved? I don't see how. Paul says they did indeed believe the gospel he at first shared with them:

"...so we preach and so you believed." (1 Corinthians 15:11 NASB)

And previously in the passage he said they had received and were standing in the gospel he had preached to them (vs. 1), and that they were saved by that gospel he preached to them (vs. 2), which included Christ's resurrection (vs. 4). So I don't see it being a question about whether they were saved, or even are saved now. The question is whether or not they are going to cave into a gospel, different than what they heard, and received, and believed in, and were saved by that doesn't include the resurrection of Christ. A gospel that will make the believing they did through his gospel, and which achieved salvation for them, vain and of no effect. They will be lost. Similar to the Galatians who were saved through his gospel but who were in danger of making Christ of no effect by going back to a gospel of law observance for justification that can not save them.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Galatians 3:2-3; NIV
"Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh"?

The truth is, if "holding on" was a requirement to get into heaven, then none of us would make it there.

Can't you see the requirement to stay in the means of the Spirit to be saved in the example of the Galatians? They are turning away from their faith in Christ to the law to be justified and making Christ of no affect for them in justification:

2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision (for justification--see context), Christ will be of no benefit to you.
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
(Galatians 5:2,4-5 NASB)

So, do you want to continue to say, "'if holding on' was a requirement to get into heaven, then none of us would make it there" in light of the fact that is the very thing Paul says we must do to secure the hope of righteousness faith provides us. You must hold fast to that which you received to be saved by what you received.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Show me scripture where it says a believer can return the gift of salvation back to God.

29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." (Hebrews 10:29-30 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

2. Why do you think he said "believed in vain" using the very precise past tense verb form of the Greek word for belief then calling it (their belief) vain?

Simple. Because their previous belief is in Paul's gospel that includes the essential element of Christ's resurrection, and the gospel by which they were/are saved. That believing will be in vain and be of no effect for them if they replace Paul's gospel with a gospel that does not include that which is "of first importance" (vs. 3) the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

Your non-OSAS doctrine says that Paul should have used a future tense of the verb for belief. That's just not the case.

Not if the point is that the believing they did in the correct gospel is what was done in vain--which it surely is if they continue sinning concerning the resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:34 NASB), because that gospel can't save them.

 

[Deborah13]

He's explaining to them that the believing they did when they first heard his gospel, which included the resurrection of Christ, will be for naught if they abandon it and start believing a gospel that doesn't include the resurrection of Christ.



Never were saved? I don't see how. Paul says they did indeed believe the gospel he at first shared with them:

"...so we preach and so you believed." (1 Corinthians 15:11 NASB)

And previously in the passage he said they had received and were standing in the gospel he had preached to them (vs. 1), and that they were saved by that gospel he preached to them (vs. 2), which included Christ's resurrection (vs. 4). So I don't see it being a question about whether they were saved, or even are saved now. The question is whether or not they are going to cave into a gospel, different than what they heard, and received, and believed in, and were saved by that doesn't include the resurrection of Christ. A gospel that will make the believing they did through his gospel, and which achieved salvation for them, vain and of no effect. They will be lost. Similar to the Galatians who were saved through his gospel but who were in danger of making Christ of no effect by going back to a gospel of law observance for justification that can not save them.

Maybe one is not saved until the end of their life and during their life they must preserver in the faith (belief) in the good news message.
So what was that message?

 

[dadof10]

Galatians 3:2-3; NIV
"Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh"?

The truth is, if "holding on" was a requirement to get into heaven, then none of us would make it there.

Why not? Do you consider HAVING faith a "work"? If so, where is the word "works" used in relation to remaining faithful? It is only used to refer to works of the law, except in a couple of verses.

 

[dadof10]

You can't lose your salvation. There is no such story of the Holy Spirit indwelling you, then 20 years later leaving you. Silliness.

I guess if you keep repeating the same thing over and over, it will eventually whitewash those verses that teach the opposite.