The reason you cant lose your salvation is?.....

[Jethro Bodine]

Again, you are professing faith in your own faith. You are resting upon your own ability.

How can I? It simply doesn't happen without God. That hardly has to mean I had nothing to do with God making salvation happen for me.

God makes it very clear, we must have faith to be saved.....and have it to the end. But as I say, that hardly means I can somehow take credit for the salvation I can't make happen for myself.

Don't be afraid of the requirement for faith. The Bible never says having faith is a damnable works gospel. Quite the opposite. The Bible teaches us that having faith is the exact opposite thing to working for your salvation.

Somehow the church decided that to say you have to have faith, and keep on having faith to the end, is the damnable works gospel that Paul taught against. But I see Paul saying that is EXACTLY the gospel that saves, contrasting that--not equating it--with the 'gospel' of works of the law that cannot save.

 

[DRS81]

The point I was making is that OSAS can't know it.

Yes they can. OSAS simply comes with the salvation promise, like apples that come with stems.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes they can. OSAS simply comes with the salvation promise, like apples that come with stems.

OSAS doesn't add up when you start considering the fellow who has failed in his faith. OSAS says he was deceived all along about being saved, and that he couldn't know he was deceived until he failed--a failure, by the way, as OSAS interprets it in the Bible, a person can not come back from. Fake believers, once they are exposed, can now not ever be truly saved? See? It just doesn't add up.

What does add up is you are saved when, and as long as, you have faith in the blood of Christ. Hebrews 10:26 plainly says to believing, saved Christians that if you fall away from salvation "there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins". You lose that which you, through your faith, had on the altar ministering on your behalf before the Father in heaven. Lose faith, and you lose what your faith was laying hold of for you in heaven. It plainly says that. Unless there really is another sacrifice for sin besides Jesus that can now minister for us in heaven.

 

[DRS81]

OSAS doesn't add up when you start considering the fellow who has failed in his faith.

You can't get saved, become unsaved, get saved again, become unsaved, get saved again, become unsaved and get saved again. It doesn't work that way.

The one who walks away from his faith is in an apostate, they were never born again to begin with. An apostate and a born again believer are not the same.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I hope you can see the point of what I'm saying:

OSAS says the test of real faith, and therefore, salvation, is if your faith fails. Not failing doesn't prove you really believe and have salvation until you are dead and the race is over, because as long as you're still alive in the body you never know if an impending failure is lying ahead to prove the faith you think you have now is fake and that you were never really saved to begin with. Think about it.

Non-OSAS, which is in line with what the Bible actually teaches, says that you know that you are saved, right now, because the witness and fruit of the Spirit can be seen in your life, right now. Future failure is attributed to a person walking away from the faith that secured that salvation for you that you really did have. Thus the security of salvation is in your continued believing, just as the Bible teaches, not in the hope that by the time you die you will not have failed, thus proving that all of your believing right from the start was actually fake believing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You can't get saved, become unsaved, get saved again, become unsaved, get saved again, become unsaved and get saved again. It doesn't work that way.

No question about it. Non-OSAS says once you walk away from Christ, your fate is sealed. It's over, baby. God knows when and where that happens in any one person's life, not us. But it's true, nonetheless. Don't think for a moment non-OSAS means a see-saw of 'being saved' and then 'not being saved'. Not a chance. That is NOT the argument.

The one who walks away from his faith is in an apostate, they were never born again to begin with. An apostate and a born again believer are not the same.

Read my previous post.

What an incredibly insecure salvation--and this from the doctrine that boasts of the sureness of knowing you're forever saved and can not lose salvation. Gregg is focusing in on the actual argument OSAS should be defending--not that believers will lose salvation if they stop believing, but if they really can, or not.

The security of salvation is your continued believing. That's security.

 

[DRS81]

What an incredibly insecure salvation--and this from the doctrine that boasts of the sureness of knowing you're forever saved and can not lose salvation. Gregg is focusing in on the actual argument OSAS should be defending--not that believers will lose salvation if they stop believing, but if they really can, or not.

The security of salvation is your continued believing. That's security.

But continued believing comes with the promise. The promise is from God, not from us.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But continued believing comes with the promise. The promise is from God, not from us.

Then I ask, who are the warnings written to? If you say to those who never really truly believed to begin with then you have to agree that they are then never allowed to believe--they are forever locked out from salvation, just as it says in these warnings. If you say they were given to truly saved believers then you have to explain why the Bible gives such pointed and severe warnings to people for whom the warnings simply do not apply and never will .

Or you could just go with the doctrine that makes sense--that true believers really can depart from their real faith in Christ and be eternally lost for doing so with no chance of believing again and being brought back to repentance allowed. The Bible is far in favor of this doctrine. In fact, that's where it comes from in plain words. On the other hand, OSAS.....not so clear from scripture, and in direct contradiction of plain words of scripture.

 

[DRS81]

Then I ask, who are the warnings written to?.

What scripture are you looking at.

 

[dadof10]

It's interesting how OSAS insists it is no longer a free, unmerited gift of grace if owning it is in any way conditioned on you receiving it and then being careful to hang on to it.

Believe in Him, not in yourself and Him.

So, our salvation is conditional upon our belief, conditional upon our DOING something? How is this not classified as "works salvation"?

 

[dadof10]

All the points you think represent non-OSAS are worthy of discussion but let's look at this one.

I explained how it is actually non-OSAS that has the security of salvation because it says as long as you're having faith in the blood of Christ you are saved.

But in OSAS you can't really know if your believing is not fake until it fails. At which time you will then know that all the believing you have done to date, and thought was real and able to save, has now been revealed to have really been a fake faith all along, one that can not save you. Yet, it is claimed that living with the uncertainty of whether or not your faith will fail is somehow having the security of salvation you can rest in.

Good point. That entire "never were saved in the first place" argument has always struck me as lame.

 

[Gregg]

Even you acknowledged the will of the person in salvation in post #90.



...if we keep believing.

Which you apparently agree with, but just adding the insistence that it is impossible to stop believing once you do. If that's true you still need to explain the many pointed warnings to not stop believing.

If you want to stick with OSAS you have no choice but to argue that they are only theoretical, baseless threats.

Yes, I acknowledge the will, saved or not. I also acknowledge God's sovereignty in the matter. I see many pointed warnings and admonitions in Scripture, but you and I see them pointing in different directions.

I have explained my take on some warnings and admonitions such as in post #97 here, and many in the similar thread "Losing Salvation after getting saved." You can count on me sticking with OSAS. I believe it to be true, and could not do otherwise. Not only do I believe OSAS to be true, but argument against it requires other strange doctrines to support it. Perhaps topics for other threads.

 

[DRS81]

Good point. That entire "never were saved in the first place" argument has always struck me as lame.

Lame, why?? It's the truth.

 

[dadof10]

Yes they can. OSAS simply comes with the salvation promise, like apples that come with stems.

Have you ever met anyone who "seemed" to be saved, considered themselves to be saved, yet eventually fell away?

 

[DRS81]

Have you ever met anyone who "seemed" to be saved, considered themselves to be saved, yet eventually fell away?

The scripture warns us about false christs. They are everywhere. You can meet one and not even know it, that's what deception is. It's murder by ignore.

 

[jeff77]

The Narrow and Wide Gates
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Is it possible for someone that is saved and starts on the narrow road to wander over onto the wide road? I think so, actually I know because I have done that but I came back. Notice the gates are at the end of these 2 different roads.

 

[dadof10]

Lame, why?? It's the truth.

Because it's not the truth, it has always sounded to me as a lame excuse to hold on to a EDITED reba doctrine. Do you think a person can "show" his true faith?

 

[DRS81]

Because it's not the truth, it has always sounded to me as a lame excuse to hold on to a edited doctrine. Do you think a person can "show" his true faith?

But it is the truth. When I say that they were never born again to begin with, ( I ) am saying that but God is the one who knows for certain.

 

[dadof10]

The scripture warns us about false christs. They are everywhere. You can meet one and not even know it, that's what deception is. It's murder by ignore.

I'm not talking about a person who is purposely evil, but a person who has accepted Christ, done good deeds, then fallen away. From all outward appearances this person was truly saved. If asked, he would tell you he is justified by the blood of Christ, saved by faith. He would be extremely confident in his faith, that it is a true faith. He would think, feel and act EXACTLY as you do. This is Jethro's point. If HE, who thinks and acts lIke you, "was never saved in the first place", how can YOU be confident in your "faith"?

 

[dadof10]

But it is the truth. When I say that they were never born again to begin with, ( I ) am saying that but God is the one who knows for certain.

Again, can a person show his true faith?