The reason you cant lose your salvation is?.....

[DRS81]

I'm not talking about a person who is purposely evil, but a person who has accepted Christ, done good deeds, then fallen away. From all outward appearances this person was truly saved. If asked, he would tell you he is justified by the blood of Christ, saved by faith. He would be extremely confident in his faith, that it is a true faith. He would think, feel and act EXACTLY as you do. This is Jethro's point. If HE, who thinks and acts lIke you, "was never saved in the first place", how can YOU be confident in your "faith"?

An apostate is a person who forsakes his religion. It's impossible for a born again christian to forsake God. Once you're indwelled with the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit will never leave. If someone forsakes God, they were never indwelled with the Holy Spirit. To forsake something is to quit or leave entirely; abandon. If the Holy Spirit doesn't leave you then you can never leave the Holy Spirit. It's simple logic.

Again, can a person show his true faith?

Yes, Matt 7:16.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, our salvation is conditional upon our belief, conditional upon our DOING something? How is this not classified as "works salvation"?

Which is what I've been trying to show the OSAS crowd. The works that Paul says can not justify are doing the works of the law, not the doing of any and all things. But somehow they have the 'work' of believing shuffled in with the works of the law that Paul says can not justify simply because believing is in fact something one does. They then try to get around that by making believing NOT something we ourselves do. They came up with an answer for an assumption that is erroneous to begin with.

 

[reba]

Years and years of hearing this discussion long before computers .... and i still am on View attachment 4699

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes, I acknowledge the will, saved or not. I also acknowledge God's sovereignty in the matter. I see many pointed warnings and admonitions in Scripture, but you and I see them pointing in different directions.

I have explained my take on some warnings and admonitions such as in post #97 here, and many in the similar thread "Losing Salvation after getting saved." You can count on me sticking with OSAS. I believe it to be true, and could not do otherwise. Not only do I believe OSAS to be true, but argument against it requires other strange doctrines to support it. Perhaps topics for other threads.

I'm not trying to change what you personally believe. But I do insist that you defend the legitimate arguments leveled against what you believe, but you are certainly entitled to hold whatever doctrine you want. I will not take that away from you. But I do want to make sure you know the valid arguments that resist that doctrine.

 

[reba]

Hey guys lets be a bit more careful of our verbiage..

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Years and years of hearing this discussion long before computers .... and i still am on View attachment 4699

Not me anymore. Examining the scriptures in our discussions has shown me that it is indeed possible for a believer to stop believing.

I will never be able to honestly tell others that once you are saved you are always saved. I have to ignore too many plain scriptures that tell saved Christians (not fake Christians) to not stop believing, or else lose the forgiveness their faith had secured for them.

 

[Kidron]

First of all, thanx to everyone who replied to this thread.
I have resisted responding.... because to do so, tends to lend the "can be unborn again" types a means to hijack the thread into rabbit trail troll land oblivion.

but i will say this, so that you that think that Jesus and his Cross need your help,.. can perhaps see the Light...

you cant be "unborn again".

Think of it like this...

Say you are a living devil. (male version)
You are the ultimate prodigal who took the money and never came back.
You have forsaken your mother and your father and your family and your upbringing, and all you want to do is sin and enjoy it.
If you are not downloading porn, you are stealing from your boss, and if you are not gossiping to stir up strife you are trying to talk some
New Christian into thinking Christianity is a "crutch".
You are a true hedonist with a mission.

Now, why cant your mother and father no longer be your mother and father?
You dont deserve them, and they certainly dont deserve you.
So, how is it that no matter what you do, you are still their CHILD, = their FAMILY MEMBER?
How is it, that if you rape your sister, and kill your own baby, and tie your parents up and set the house on fire......how is it that you are still their CHILD no matter how you behave
or what you do?
Its simple...
Its because a BIRTH has created you to be a part of them, and this cant be undone by your crooked or horrific behavior.
See, you are theirs because you were BORN by blood to them......and guess what......you cant be UNBORN to them.
You are theirs till forever and ever, unfortunately.

So, this is the same situation that God has with you ONCE you become "born again"..
You have been Born to God by the BLOOD of his Son, and this Spiritual Birth cant be remitted or dissolved or undone for any reason, as this "birth" has nothing to do with your deeds or your behavior
any more then when you were EARTH BIRTHED by mama.
Neither of these births have anything to do with you, but rather everything to do with the creation of them and who did it.
And in both cases, you didn't.
They are exclusive of your behavior., and cant be terminated by your behavior, as your behavior has nothing to do with ither case.
Your "birth" in both cases is the product of something outside of yourself, thus, cant be undone by you.
No matter what.
Ever.



K~

 

[reba]

Jethro Bodine I can say yup exactly then remember....
I will never leave you...
Psa_103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
Psa_3:8 Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah.
Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

and a few others or flip and see these
Rev_3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Have you ever met anyone who "seemed" to be saved, considered themselves to be saved, yet eventually fell away?

I know you're asking someone else, but let me jump in here and share that I know a person who received Christ in an official invitation to salvation, got water baptized, spoke in genuine tongues (but hated doing it, lol), but who finally did what Jesus said the person of #2 soil did--believed for a while but walked away from the faith because of the struggle.

Am I in a position to tell you that they walked away to the point that Christ turned them over and they can not now never come back? Honestly, it sure seemed that way after so many years and a stern resistance to anything 'Christian', but I'm simply in no position to know that, although every sign was present that that was the case. I know God is long suffering and merciful and doesn't give up easy for those reasons, so I'm hoping recent circumstances will prove that this person was not turned over with no hope of repentance and will come to their senses.

Also, I already shared about a fellow who used to post in this forum who complained about having once believed but who could no longer believe and wished he could like the rest of us. Again, we're in no position to judge, but it sure seems he's showing us exactly what the Bible says, that if you forsake the salvation you have received you will be given no opportunity to get it back, even if you want it, Esau being our illustration of the stark reality of that truth.

 

[reba]

 

[Kidron]

Not me anymore. Examining the scriptures in our discussions has shown me that it is indeed possible for a believer to stop believing.

I will never be able to honestly tell others that once you are saved you are always saved. I have to ignore too many plain scriptures that tell saved Christians (not fake Christians) to not stop believing, or else lose the forgiveness their faith had secured for them.

Well, good try.
however, backsliding wont cost you your salvation anymore then "living it" or "walking the walk" can save you.
You are Saved or Not, based on God redeeming you by giving you his Righteousness. Romans 3: 21 - 28
If you have that, you are good to go, but if you dont, and think that "salvation" is what YOU do, then you are not trusting in God and his Son, but rather you are trusting in your own self-righteousness..
And Self Righteousness is what damns a person, not sin.

In other words......IF you are trying to make yourself "right with God", instead of trusting in HIM to make you "right" based on what Jesus did for you, then you have not even understood Salvation and you can take it from there..

so, Jesus saves you , or You save yourself.

One is not the eternal answer.

Guess

 

[dadof10]

An apostate is a person who forsakes his religion. It's impossible for a born again christian to forsake God. Once you're indwelled with the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit will never leave.

You are presuming this is biblical. It's not.

If someone forsakes God, they were never indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

Neither is this.

To forsake something is to quit or leave entirely; abandon. If the Holy Spirit doesn't leave you then you can never leave the Holy Spirit. It's simple logic.

Huh? That's not logical at all. If you never leave your wife, she can never leave you. Doesn't make sense to me.

How does a person show that he has a true faith? How do you show your true faith?

 

[reba]

dadof10 you can remain married no matter what the spouse does....

 

[agua.]

Years and years of hearing this discussion long before computers .... and i still am on View attachment 4699

Not me anymore. Examining the scriptures in our discussions has shown me that it is indeed impossible for a believer to stop believing.

I will never be able to honestly tell others that once you are saved you are not always saved. I have to ignore too many plain scriptures that tell saved Christians (not fake Christians) to not stop following, or else lose the privileges their faith had secured for them. ( I'm guessing this isn't what you had in mind concerning respecting eachother's position ? )

Sorry couldn't resist a bit of fun on a lazy Sundy arvo.

BTW careful fence sitting can give you splinters but I spose it's better than following someone into a ditch

 

[reba]

 

[DRS81]

You are presuming this is biblical. It's not.

Yes it is.

Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 6:40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

John 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God

Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

Rom 8:15-16 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

Gal 4:4-5 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.

John 5:24 "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Eph 1:3-5 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.

Luke 18:9-12 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

Luke 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

2 Cor 1:21-22 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1 Peter 1:5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Rom 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.

1 Cor 6:9-11 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Eph 2:4-9 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the (gift) of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

1 Cor 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

James 1:6-8 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.

2 Tim 2:11-13 Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; 12if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; 13if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

1 Cor 12:13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body--whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Rev 21:1-3 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”a for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

Heb 10:10-12 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.

Heb 10:22-23 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.

John 10:27-29 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

Psalm 56:8 You have kept count of my tossings; put my tears in your bottle. Are they not in your book?

Luke 10:19-20 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. 20However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”

Huh? That's not logical at all. If you never leave your wife, she can never leave you. Doesn't make sense to me.

How does a person show that he has a true faith? How do you show your true faith?

Your wife is not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is perfect in his will. Your wife is not. You show your faith by living by the Word of God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well, good try.
however, backsliding wont cost you your salvation anymore then "living it" or "walking the walk" can save you.

I'm not surprised that you think the argument is that just sinning is what will cost you your salvation. No, it's the specific sin of no longer trusting in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins, whether that be through a careless neglect, or a conscious contempt for it, that causes the believer to no longer have the sacrifice of Christ available to them for the forgiveness of sins. The sin that results from doing that is the evidence of that decision, not necessarily the cause of it.

You are Saved or Not, based on God redeeming you by giving you his Righteousness. Romans 3: 21 - 28
If you have that, you are good to go, but if you dont, and think that "salvation" is what YOU do, then you are not trusting in God and his Son, but rather you are trusting in your own self-righteousness..

Sounds good, because I surely don't have a righteousness of my own that can save me. So what do I have to do to get this righteousness you speak about?

And Self Righteousness is what damns a person, not sin.

Believing in Christ is the self righteousness Paul says can not justify? This is important to know. Show me where he says this. I'm serious. I'm not trying to be snotty, or snarky. This is a very important matter and you are making a very serious declaration of truth here, that believing in Christ is a damnable work of self righteousness.

In other words......IF you are trying to make yourself "right with God", instead of trusting in HIM to make you "right" based on what Jesus did for you, then you have not even understood Salvation and you can take it from there..

so, Jesus saves you , or You save yourself.

Yeah, this is great news! Please tell me what I must do to be right with God as you are saying. I'm serious. I want myself and everyone else reading this thread to know.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not me anymore. Examining the scriptures in our discussions has shown me that it is indeed impossible for a believer to stop believing.

I will never be able to honestly tell others that once you are saved you are not always saved. I have to ignore too many plain scriptures that tell saved Christians (not fake Christians) to not stop following, or else lose the privileges their faith had secured for them. ( I'm guessing this isn't what you had in mind concerning respecting eachother's position ? )

Sorry couldn't resist a bit of fun on a lazy Sundy arvo.

BTW careful fence sitting can give you splinters but I spose it's better than following someone into a ditch

I respect your privilege and right to subscribe to the doctrine you think is right, but you can't say what you said here until you answer the very pointed challenges that I have leveled against OSAS doctrine.

 

[agua.]

I respect your privilege and right to subscribe to the doctrine you think is right, but you can't say what you said here until you answer the very pointed challenges that I have leveled against OSAS doctrine.

I respect your privilege and right to subscribe to the doctrine you think is right, but you will not interest me to respond to any pointed challenge to the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints until you can learn to not use logical fallacies and respect the ToS by sticking to the subject matter.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I respect your privilege and right to subscribe to the doctrine you think is right, but you will not interest me to respond to any pointed challenge to the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints until you can learn to not use logical fallacies and respect the ToS by sticking to the subject matter.

Please take the time to show me the logical fallacy of the non-OSAS doctine that I have been presenting here. I'm listening. And I've been very careful to stay right on the subject matter. It isn't necessary to divert the discussion to show that OSAS doctrine doesn't stand up to Biblical scrutiny.