The Reception of the Holy Spirit

[Mungo]

Catholicism is a mixture of faith and works. The works is what clouds the Gospel.

More opinions

 

[Mungo]

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were all written under the Old Covenant of law and religion, that has been abolished, Colossians 2:14.

:shock :shock :shock

And you accuse Catholics of heresy.

 

[for_his_glory]

James was a Judaizer. A Judaizer is someone that believes in Jesus but also believes that you keep the law of Moses. The book of James was not directed to Gentile Christians. It was directed to law keeping Jews, James 1:1. James wanted to circumcise Gentile believers, Acts 15:1-21. James also sent men to spy on Barnabas and Peter to see if the were eating with those nasty Gentiles, Galatians 2:11-21.

Sorry, but none of the scriptures you gave never mention James and Galatians 2:11-21 is about Paul opposing Peter, not James.

Christ came to fulfill the law and what He has already fulfilled in His death and resurrection was only the Temple laws and sacrifice. We are to still keep the moral parts of the law by the greatest commandment of love in how we treat others.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[for_his_glory]

Certainly.
I have a book called Receiving The Power by two Presbyterian Charismatics, Zeb Bradford Long and Douglas McMurray, which I think explains this very well. I'll use some actual quotes in blue.
Their thesis is that there are two distinctive ways in which the Holy Spirit acts and these are often confused, not the least because the same phrases are used in scripture regarding them. These two ways are referred to by Long & McMurray as ‘the Spirit upon’ and ‘the Spirit within’.
They say:
"There are two major motifs in scripture…that reflect two different operations of the Holy Spirit. One motif has the Spirit coming “upon” people for power in ministry. A second has the Spirit coming “within” people for salvation and to develop in them skill, wisdom, godly character and maturity in faith and love. Both motifs are equally important and equally biblical."

Thus there is an external and internal work of the Spirit. This is true both for the Old Testament and the New.

The external work corresponds to the charismatic gifts of the Spirit which are given for work of ministry. Examples of the ‘Spirit upon’ from the Old Testament are for example 2Chr 15:1-2 (for prophecy), 1Sam 19:23-24 (ecstatic praise of God), Ez 1:3-4 (for visions).

The internal work corresponds to the sanctifying gifts of the Spirit, as well as practical gifts. Examples from the Old Testament are Gen 41:38-39 (wisdom), Ex 31:1-5 (knowledge and craftsmanship).

Long & McMurray use the imagery of a tree where, in the external work, the Spirit gives gifts like those on a Christmas tree, which can be added or removed. They are given for ministry and for the building up of the Church. The internal work is more like the sap permeating the tree giving it life and producing fruit that comes from within. Thus the internal work helps us grow in holiness and spiritual fruitfulness.

When scripture uses the phrase “receive the Holy Spirit” (or similar) it may be using it to refer to either “the Spirit upon” or the “Spirit within”. Some discernment is needed and sometimes the text is not clear. One test is whether there is some manifestation of “the Spirit upon”.

The Spirit Upon
In Acts, Luke seems to use the term (receive the Holy Spirit) exclusively for “the Spirit upon”. At Pentecost the Holy Spirit, in the form of tongues of fire, comes to rest on those in the Upper Room and they all begin to speak in tongues (manifestation) (Acts 2:1-4)

In Acts 10 the Holy Spirit falls on Cornelius and his household and they began to speak in tongues (manifestation). Peter says "Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" (vs 47) – referring to Pentecost. This is “the Spirit upon”.

The Spirit Within
Paul himself, in his writings, seems to use receiving the Holy Spirit in the sense of “the Spirit within” (for character and salvation)

“For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, "Abba! Father!" it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God” (Rom 8:15-16)

“Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God.” (1Cor 2:12)

“Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God?” (1Cor 6:19)

So we receive the Holy Spirit within at baptism (with water) and receive the Holy Spirit upon at the so-called baptism with the Holy Spirit.

There are OT prophecies for both of these:
Ezekial (Ez 36:25-27) -
I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you….
the Spirit within

In Acts 2:17-18) Peter quotes from Joel explaining what had happened
‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
yea, and on my menservants and my maidservants in those days
I will pour out my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.
the Spirit upon

I can give NT examples as well but this is getting long

But one more thing, another expression the Bible uses, filled with the Holy Spirit, is more complicated but it too can be understood in the context of the inner and outer work of the Spirit. This is easier to distinguish becayuse two different Greek words are used. But I'll leave that for now as this is getting rather long.

Thank you and I also agree with this and have said it myself, except the part where we have to be baptized in water in order to receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire

 

[Mungo]

Thank you and I also agree with this and have said it myself, except the part where we have to be baptized in water in order to receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire

Mat 3:11 is the external work of the Spirit, the pouring out upon, that happened at Pentecost.

 

[for_his_glory]

Catholics frequently mix sanctification with justification. A theological no, no.

Sanctification: God's work in us by the Holy Spirit.

Justification: God's work for us by Jesus Christ (The Gospel).

When you mix these two separate aspects of salvation you have heresy.

Sanctification and justification go hand in hand first by having faith as being taught in the OT and the NT and are not two separate aspects of God's salvation.

Sanctification - to be set apart for God's special use and purpose Leviticus 20:7-8; Galatians 5:16; Philippians 2:12-13

Justification - the action of declaring or making righteous in the sight of God Romans 3:23-25; Romans 5:1

 

[for_his_glory]

Obedience is a work of the Holy Spirit and is the results of being born again. The only requirement for salvation is faith in Christ, plus nothing. If it is faith plus works then it is a perverted salvation and may not be a salvation at all, Ephesians 2:8.

Now you are adding faith which would make it two requirements for salvation as all you said in your post #64 the only requirement was that we only had to believe by only posting John 3:16.

All five of those requirements I listed are all apart of salvation as we first confess we are a sinner and need to repent. By faith we believe in God and His Son Christ Jesus as regeneration comes by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as we are made new again within the Spiritual inner man where the Holy Spirit dwells in us. Then we begin to study the word of God by allowing the Holy Spirit teach us.


1. Confession - Acts 2:21; Romans 10:9, 10


2. Repentance - Mark 1:14, 15


3. Faith - John 3:14-18


4. Regeneration - John 3:3-8


5. Holy Scripture - 2 Timothy 3:15

 

[for_his_glory]

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were all written under the Old Covenant of law and religion, that has been abolished, Colossians 2:14.

Paul said that we are complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. Paul was a New Covenant Christian for that reason I believe Paul. All that are trusting in Christ have entered into his rest, Hebrews 4:10.

The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, that is what he does, John 16:8.

Once again evading my simple yes or no questions.

Do you believe that humility is considered debasement and a teaching of weakness?
Just answer yes or no as I need nothing more.

 

[Vinny37]

So, is salvation o

Salvation is by faith alone because it is by Christ alone. There is no scripture that says the Father is the savior. What the scripture does say is that, "God was in Christ reconciling us and the world unto himself" 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.

So, is salvation only by Christ without faith, or only by faith without Christ, or does it include both Christ and faith, in which case it is not by ‘only’ one agency. And if the spirit gives us new birth, is that not saving us? I am aware, incidentally, that the Five Solas were constructed within certain antitheses: it’s how they sound outside of their original setting, that is largely a problem to me as an evangelical.

The father is saviour: the general tenor of Scripture. Even proof-texts declare this. Eg, Jude 25 (NLT: All glory to him who alone is God, our Saviour through Jesus Christ our Lord…), and 1 Tm.1:1 (NIV: …an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Saviour and of Christ Jesus our hope), make that point. [God], as you might know, generally stands for the father in the NT, and similarly [Lord] to God the son whether noncarnate or incarnate (eg 1 Cor.8:6).

The Athanasian Creed also points in that direction of mutual yet distinct: eg “…likewise the Father is lord, the Son lord, and the Holy Spirit lord. …yet not three lords, but one lord.” Each trinity person has acted/acts, in their own way, in our salvation into and within trinitarian life. Are you, incidentally, denying that the father is saviour, that the noncarnate son is saviour, and that the spirit is saviour, and saying that only Christ, the son incarnate, is saviour? I doubt that you would really go that far.

 

[for_his_glory]

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were all written under the Old Covenant of law and religion, that has been abolished, Colossians 2:14.

So, Matthew and Mark being the Disciples of Christ being Spiritually born again and indwelled with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, and Luke who was a companion to Paul in his travels who penned his witness and testified of Christ that makes up the books of Luke and Acts were all under the 613 Levitical laws and continued in the rituals of the Temple and offered animal sacrifices after the crucifixion of Christ as this is what you are saying.


Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Apparently heaven and earth has not passed away yet and Christ has not returned yet so the only thing that He has fulfilled so far are the Temple laws and sacrificing animals once a year for the atonement of sin.

Here are the moral parts of the Levitical laws that still exist today we are still to keep as we walk in the Spirit and God's greatest commandment of love.

prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood. The poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family. Forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants. Vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures. Injuries and damages, property and property rights, criminal laws. Prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws (commandments) keep us in line with the will of God.

We keep these remaining laws by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit through the Spiritual rebirth from above until Christ returns fulfilling all the laws.​

 

[for_his_glory]

Mat 3:11 is the external work of the Spirit, the pouring out upon, that happened at Pentecost.

On the day of Pentecost it was first external as sitting upon them and then internal as they were filled with the Holy Spirit.

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

 

[eddif]

Like I said, people need to learn the difference between John's baptism for repentance and the Baptism of Christ for the Spiritual rebirth and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

This is not trying to change what for_his_glory is saying.

This is how I would try to address the baptism aspects.

Baptism is being immersed in a subject/influence. In Greek a sinking ship is baptized, a drunk is baptized in alcohol. In teaching Spanish (an example) the class may not be allowed (as a General rule) to speak in any language but Spanish (while in class). You are immersed in Spanish.

Baptized in:
1. Repentance
Know all about what John the Baptist was called to do and did. Repentance leaves you crying (I am lost what must I do to be saved).
John used water baptism. Try not to mix John the Baptist and Jesus.
IMHO this is the Fathers baptism. We sin against the Father.

Break in thought.

2. Salvation in Jesus Christ:
Know all about the sacrifice that Jesus was. How the work of Jesus brings forgiveness of sin. Immersed in that thought. Try not to say (yes but John the Baptist ….) stay focused on Jesus Christ.
IMHO this is the Son’s baptism. We are forgiven in Jesus (one name under heaven by which we are saved).

Break in thought.

3. Holy Spirit given that we may be a witness
At this point:
A. Some want to blend/tie and not look at the Holy Spirit as separate in any fashion.
B. Some were not taught about the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
C. The gifts overpower the giver of gifts.
D. Another yes but.

The Great Commission said baptize in three areas. Are the three tied together? Yes. Why seperate them? I really just know that they are mentioned separately and we are told to teach all things.

Now I will make a statement. Under the Law of Moses you were not to cook more than one bean variety in a pot. It must be hard to digest things closely related. If we mix/cook the Father, Son and Holy Spirt without knowing the distinctions, confusion in digestion/understanding is the result.

for_his_glory knows the need to understand. I have tried to help. She has the authority. Others may do a much better job of making comments.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Tenchi]

O, Catholicism is too big to be a cult.

??? Couldn't the Buddhist or Muslim make the same assertion about their religion on the same basis? Your remark above is, basically, the fallacious "Argument from the Majority." At one time, a majority of people believed the sun revolved around the earth. They were all wrong.

 

[Mungo]

On the day of Pentecost it was first external as sitting upon them and then internal as they were filled with the Holy Spirit.

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. The spirit upon.

As I said earlier, but did not elaborate further, there are two ways of being "filled with" (or full of) the Holy Spirit; one for the inner work (Spirit within) and one for the outer work (Spirit upon). But in this case two different Greek words are used.
Here is the explanation by Long & McMurray (their words in red).

The second expression the Bible uses, filled with the Holy Spirit, is more complicated but it too can be understood in the context of the inner and outer work of the Spirit.

When the New Testament speaks of people being “filled with” or “full of” the Holy Spirit, the Greek word reveals one of two concepts. English translations…. Use the same words for both Greek concepts and do not reflect the difference. One Greek term, pleitho, is used consistently for the outer work of the Holy Spirit and usually refers to a brief temporary filling. Another Greek word pleiroo (or its cognate pleires) is used consistently for the inner work of the Holy Spirit and usually refers to something that gets fuller and fuller until it is saturated. This refers to a state of being.

The distinction between pleitho and plieroo is more or less consistent, whether they speak of being filled with the Holy Spirit or anything else.

“Filled” for Action
The filling referred to by the word pleitho is temporary and followed immediately by action. It corresponds to upon or fell upon.

Examples of pleitho – temporary, for action
“And his father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying….” (Lk 1:67)
“Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them……” (Acts 4:8)
“But Saul, who is also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him and said,….” (Acts 13:9-10).

This kind of filling happens again and again, just as a sponge may be refilled many times…..The disciples were not filled only once on Pentecost, but many times thereafter…..The presence of the Holy Spirit is constant, but the expression of the power is episodic. (my emboldening)

I think this usage is what might be called an anointing.

Filled” as a State of Being
The other Greek word for being filled with the Holy Spirit, pleiroo (or its alternative pleires), describes something becoming fuller and fuller. The filling does not happen at distinct times, but is a slow progressive saturation, like yeast permeating a dough, and describes a state of being. Usually there is no reference to dynamic action.

Examples of pleiroo/pleires – state of being
“And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan, and was led by the Spirit for forty days in the wilderness, tempted by the devil.” (Lk1-2)
“Therefore, brethren, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom …” (Acts 6:3)
“[F]or he [Barnabus] was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith…” (Acts 11:24)

Two Ways of Being Spirit Filled
We can summarise these findings simply. God wants us to be filled with the Holy Spirit in two distinct senses of the word. He wants us, on the one hand, to be open to all the inner workings of the Spirit in our character, preparing us for eternity and yielding the fruit of the Spirit, especially love. On the other hand, He wants us to be open occasions when we can minister in His power through the gifts of the Spirit.

In the first instance, we “have” the Holy Spirit. He is described as being “in” us to change our character. Christian character arises from the slow, percolating work of the Holy Spirit…

In the second instance, the Holy Spirit “has” us. He chooses to use us in a moment to accomplish a ministry by His power. At no time does the Bible indicate that you or I can “have” the power of God in the same way a New Ager tries to get spiritual power to use for good or evil. This kind of power for service comes and goes….

The word used for filled in Acts 2:4 is G4130, as in LK 1:67, Acts 4:8, Acts 13:9-10 that I gave in the example above for filled for action.

For filled as a state of being in the examples I gave (Lk1-2, Acts 6:3, Acts 11:24) are Strong G4134

 

[Tenchi]

Nice to be able to pick only the verses you like.
If Paul didn't agree with Jesus, would his writings be in the NT?
No.

Jesus said we must believe and obey.

John 3:36, ESV: Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

??? Do you mean that one's obedience contributes to one's salvation? How do you square this thinking with these verses:

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

2 Timothy 1:9 (NASB)
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Titus 3:5 (NASB)
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Saving faith is marked as such by corresponding action (James 2:19-22). That is, if I believe a thing in my heart (as opposed to just my head), I will anticipate concrete changes in my living that reflect my belief. I think this is what baptism illustrates: The connection between heart-belief and action. And that connection is so direct and inevitable that Scripture almost makes the latter synonymous with the former. But what is inevitable in regards to faith and action is not, therefore, necessary. It is going too far - especially in light of the verses above - to say that salvation depends upon baptism or good works. This is to make good works necessary to salvation rather than merely the inevitable consequence of salvation.

Was Christ's atoning sacrifice sufficient to satisfy God's holy justice? Was Christ's shed blood and broken body a perfect sacrifice for Man's sin? When we make our good deeds necessary to our salvation, we are indicating that what Christ did at Calvary was not sufficient, it was not perfect. I think that is a deeply blasphemous belief. That we can, by dint of our good deeds complete our salvation, that we can add to the fullness of Christ's redemptive work on the cross with our own righteousness, diminishes the Savior and elevates the sinner; for the sinner who can, by means of his own good works, fully-secure his salvation has become a co-Savior with Christ. What terrible evil in such an idea! It is precisely because no one could ever satisfy God's holy standard of perfection for acceptance into His kingdom and family that the "Lamb of God who - alone - takes away the sin of the world" was necessary (John 1:29; John 3:16, 36; John 14:6; Acts 4:12; 1 Timothy 2:5; 1 John 5:11-12). Only his perfection and infinite, divine nature was sufficient to satisfy God's holy justice.

Romans 5:6-10 (NASB)
6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Ephesians 2:4-5 (NASB)
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Hebrews 9:22-28 (NASB)
22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.
26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

Isaiah 53:11 (NASB)
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities.

Isaiah 64:6-7 (NASB)
6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
7 There is no one who calls on Your name, Who arouses himself to take hold of You; For You have hidden Your face from us And have delivered us into the power of our iniquities.

Isaiah 53:5-6 (NASB)
5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.
6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.

What Christ did for us on the cross of Calvary was perfectly sufficient, requiring nothing more in order to satisfy God's holy justice. Thank God this is so because there is nothing a vile, wicked sinner (Romans 3:10, 23), at enmity with God by his evil deeds (Colossians 1:21), bound under the power of the world, the Flesh and the devil (Ephesians 2:1-3), and utterly unable to save himself can contribute to his own salvation!

Every believer is accepted by God "in the Beloved," who is Christ (Ephesians 1:6), and ONLY in him. And so, the believer's good works are merely the "fruit" of their salvation, reflecting their belief in Christ as their Savior, the inevitable consequence of their belief in him, but never the necessary means, in any measure, of their salvation.

The analogy of an apple tree is a very useful one in this matter. An apple tree in good soil, free of pests and disease, receiving sufficient moisture, in time inevitably bears fruit. But the apples it may bear do not make an apple tree an apple tree; that is, bearing apples is not necessary to the apple tree being what it is. An apple tree, in its nascent stage, just sprouting from the ground, is too early in its development to bear apples and yet it is, nonetheless, an apple tree. Caught in a drought and starved of water, an apple tree may not bear apples, either, but it is still an apple tree, regardless. And so on.

In the same way, the fruit of salvation - good works - may, for various reasons, not appear in the life of a genuinely born-again person. But their saved condition is not predicated upon their good works; their good works are not necessary to being saved. Salvation is a Person, Jesus Christ, not merely a condition, and he is one's Savior only by receiving him as such by faith. Into anyone who will "open the door" of their heart to him, he will enter (Revelations 3:20; Romans 10:9-10) and make them one of his own. And as such a person walks with Christ and is transformed by his Spirit, the "peaceable fruit of righteousness" is produced in their life. But this fruit is always only the inevitable consequence of their salvation, not the necessary means of it.

 

[Vinny37]

So you do not believe what Jesus spoke to Nicodemus?

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

That’s just the point, I do believe what Jesus said, but I don’t believe that Jesus said what Nicodemus said. The idea, born again, was a joke by Nicodemus, and moreover can sound like reincarnationalism. Tyndale was not ‘born again’, BTW—check out his translation. The flow of dialogue was that Jesus used an ambivalent phrase, gennēthē anōthen. Nicodemus fed it back in the daft sense as ‘born again’. Jesus twitted him, explaining that he had meant it in its other sense, not another birth of the biological kind, but a new kind of birth, spiritual birth from the spirit. The best versions to capture the flow are the RSV/WEB/CEB, while I rate 18 versions as unsatisfactory, the worst being the CJB/EJB.

 

[Cooper]

ETERNAL LIFE WITH CHRIST

John 5:24-30 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment but has passed from death to life. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. (No irresistible grace)

John 14:20 Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.

John 6:53-58 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

John 15:4-5 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

John 17:20-24 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.

(It was Jesus who was loved from the foundation of the world.)
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[Hopeful]

Repenting is a work of the Holy Spirit that occurs after one is saved, not before.

As salvation will occur on the last day, the day of judgement, repenting will be too late then.
Sinners turn from sin.
The Holy Ghost will not reside in a polluted temple.
Repentance from sin and the washing by the blood of Jesus Christ at our water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins happens before we receive the promised gift of the Holy Ghost.
Just as Peter exhorted in Acts 2:38..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
1. Repentance from sin, 2. baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, 3. gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Hopeful]

Catholics frequently mix sanctification with justification. A theological no, no.

Sanctification: God's work in us by the Holy Spirit.

Justification: God's work for us by Jesus Christ (The Gospel).

When you mix these two separate aspects of salvation you have heresy.

Why?
They both happen at the same time and in the same way.

 

[Hopeful]

Obedience is a work of the Holy Spirit and is the results of being born again. The only requirement for salvation is faith in Christ, plus nothing. If it is faith plus works then it is a perverted salvation and may not be a salvation at all, Ephesians 2:8.

Will the Holy Spirit get the blame for not rebirthing so many, on the day of judgement?
If it is the Holy Spirit's doings, how can any man be blamed and judged for his sins?
Your doctrine makes no sense.