the removal the church isnt supportable

[Eugene]

The way it reads, I *think* that the 24 elders seem to be identified as the redeemed in Revelation 5: 9-10

8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth./ (NIV)

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth./ (KJV)

And then, they Worship before the Lamb receives the scroll. Then in Chapter 6 the scroll is opened and the Judgments pour out. But the Church and the redeemed are already in heaven! I believe this is backed up by 1 Thessalonians 5:9 and 1 Thessalonians 1:10

Good morning. With any of the Church seen by John in heaven, there was an order involved of them being there we read of in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Many think of the four living ones as some super angels, but they are redeemed as you brought forth in Revelation 5:9. I suggest that the twenty-four elders represent the asleep in Christ to be raised first, and the four living ones those alive at Jesus' coming for them in the clouds. There are two churches shown as having crowns and that is the Smyrna (Rev 2:10) and Philadelphia (Rev 3:11) churches which I believe are represented by these two groups.

 

[Eugene]

Perhaps. But they are still in heaven before the scroll was opened.

I do agree.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I believe the angel's command to "Come up here" in Revelation 4:1 represents the rapture of the church. The way the 24 elders make the most sense is for the namesakes of the 12 Tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles to be the elders.

 

[Eugene]

I believe the angel's command to "Come up here" in Revelation 4:1 represents the rapture of the church. The way the 24 elders make the most sense is for the namesakes of the 12 Tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles to be the elders.

That is an idea that has floated around for some time, but only the Apostle John is invited at that time of the future Lord's Day to observe things taking place from that time on, and the twenty-four elders and four living ones are already present with John when he is caught up. Another thing about that is the fact that we're reading of things concerning the Church at that time.

Many believe that those of the Old Testament have their place and promises with the Church, and if that were so John the Baptist might have the greatest honor of being in the bride of Christ; there will be none other greater reward. Let's read about Jesus' words concerning John, and John's words of his place at the wedding. Jesus calls him the greatest among men, and yet John says that his joy is being friend of the bridegroom; not the bride.

Matthew 11:11 Verily I (Jesus) say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist . .

John 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

 

[n2thelight]

The way it reads, I *think* that the 24 elders seem to be identified as the redeemed in Revelation 5: 9-10

8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth./ (NIV)

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth./ (KJV)

And then, they Worship before the Lamb receives the scroll. Then in Chapter 6 the scroll is opened and the Judgments pour out. But the Church and the redeemed are already in heaven! I believe this is backed up by 1 Thessalonians 5:9 and 1 Thessalonians 1:10

Once we die ,we automatically go to heaven,from there it's a matter of what side of the gulf we shall be on,as Christ taught in the parable of the rich man....Most see this as just that,a parable,however I believe it to be just as Christ taught........Also as taught in Ecclesiasties.....

How else could Mosses and Elijah appear with Christ on the mount,if they were not already in heaven?This is also how Christ brings them with Him at the 2nd coming.....

 

[Grappler]

I have a question. If the wicked are removed from the earth and not the saints, or if there is no rapture, or a post trib rapture....who are the 24 elders before the throne in Revelation 4:10 and who are the seven golden Lampstands? ?

10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:/ (NIV)

An important interpretative issue in the Book of Revelation revolves around the identity of the 24 elders. Who the 24 elders represent can be very important in regards to the pre-trib rapture. The 24 elders are mentioned five times in the Book of Revelation as follows: Revelation 4:4, 10, 5:8, 11:16, 19:4. If they represent the church, then it reflects what one would expect if the rapture has occurred before the tribulation has begun. If it represents someone else, then it would not necessarily argue against pretribulationism, especially if they were angels. I think it is clearly the church that these 24 elders represent and therefore it supports the fact that Christ’s Bride has been taken to heaven before the start of the tribulation.

Here's why I feel these cannot be angels but must be men as it seems (although glorified men).

It says they are elders - I cannot find the word ever applied to angels. This makes sense since angels apparently are all the same age anyway.
They sit on thrones and wear crowns - Again you never will find an angel wearing a crown or destined to rule as the thrones imply. On the other hand we are told throughout the Bible that the righteous shall inherit and rule the earth, including the twelve apostles sitting on twelve thrones ruling each of the twelve tribes (Luke 22:30).
White Raiment - If they are righteous glorified men in Heaven, this is what they ought to be wearing according to Revelation 19:8 as the clothing of the Bride of Christ at the Marriage Supper will be, in addition to many parables of Jesus.

The seven Lampstands (or candlesticks in some translations) are the seven churches. Revelation 1: 12-13

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man,[d] dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest./ (NIV)

Revelation 1:19-20

19 “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. 20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels[e] of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

When John arrived in heaven for this vision of what is to come...the Elders and Lampstands are already there! It is then that the Lamb opens the scroll which are the judgements and Great Tribulation! So how did they get there before the Great Tribulation? Hmm?

How on Earth that you take the symbolic book of Revelation with its reference to 24 elders and equate that to equal some kind of pre-tribulation escape when the same book of Revelation teaches that there will many martyrs die and come out of the Tribulation is beyond me.lol The 24 elders could easily refer to angelic beings. Look into the writings and studies of Michael Heiser particularily the Council of God it is very eye-opening. Listen Edward, i know the idea of some kind of pre-tribulation escape is something that appeals to our itchy ears and there are plenty of preachers that will try to please our itchy ears but Jesus' recorded words in Matt. 24 and Mark 13 makes it clear that the elect will be GATHERED AFTER the days of tribulation prior to his return.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

That is an idea that has floated around for some time, but only the Apostle John is invited at that time of the future Lord's Day to observe things taking place from that time on, and the twenty-four elders and four living ones are already present with John when he is caught up. Another thing about that is the fact that we're reading of things concerning the Church at that time.

No. The previous three chapters are about the church up to that point. Then, when John is told "Come up here," that would be synonymous with the rapture. Afterwards, the church is not mentioned. Those who are pictured as believers in the remainder of Revelation would be new believers, those who come to Christ by the witness of the 144,000 Jewish evangelists and perhaps just by the events of the Tribulation coming alive before their eyes and them remembering they've read of this before. We also have the church in Revelation 19 attending the wedding feast of the Lamb, but we are not told how the church got there. It is obvious that with John's ascent, the church is ascended as well.

 

[Grappler]

Once we die ,we automatically go to heaven,from there it's a matter of what side of the gulf we shall be on,as Christ taught in the parable of the rich man....Most see this as just that,a parable,however I believe it to be just as Christ taught........Also as taught in Ecclesiasties.....

How else could Mosses and Elijah appear with Christ on the mount,if they were not already in heaven?This is also how Christ brings them with Him at the 2nd coming.....

Where in scripture does it say we automatically go to Heaven when we die???

 

[Grappler]

No. The previous three chapters are about the church up to that point. Then, when John is told "Come up here," that would be synonymous with the rapture. Afterwards, the church is not mentioned. Those who are pictured as believers in the remainder of Revelation would be new believers, those who come to Christ by the witness of the 144,000 Jewish evangelists and perhaps just by the events of the Tribulation coming alive before their eyes and them remembering they've read of this before. We also have the church in Revelation 19 attending the wedding feast of the Lamb, but we are not told how the church got there. It is obvious that with John's ascent, the church is ascended as well.

To equate Rev. 4:1 "come up here" to somekind of pre-tribulation escape is completely absurd. Do you no understand that John was given this vision about 2000 years ago? In this vision he was told to come up here. He....John...NOT the "church". You are trying to get me to believe that a vision 2000 years ago where John was told to come up to heaven for more prophecy somehow means pre-tribulation rapture for church in the future, when Jesus made it clear that he was going to gather his elect AFTER the tribulation....that is weak man. Please read Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

To equate Rev. 4:1 "come up here" to somekind of pre-tribulation escape is completely absurd.

Only to those who don't want to admit that God will deliver His church out of the final chapter of this Earth's history. Feel free to believe that if you wish.

 

[n2thelight]

Where in scripture does it say we automatically go to Heaven when we die???

Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."

The "cistern" is the clay flesh body that our soul lives in. The cistern is built to hold the water or life that is within the flesh body, but once that bowl is broken the water or life leaks out of it, just as water leaks out of this flesh body. The "silver cord" is what holds your soul and the spirit together with the flesh body. We can call it the process of thought, which is the intellect of the mind, or soul. When one is brain dead, there is no electrical impulse within the brain, and mankind is considered dead, even though the physical body may still be pumping blood. Life support systems are generally discontinued in most cases.

When that silver cord parts, and the heavenly Father allows it to happen, and this flesh body becomes biologically dead, the very inner man departs for this physical body, and returns to the Father. This decaying body will never be used again, ever. For the soul has entered into its new incorruptible body.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

Then when? After the silver cord breaks, the mind is brain dead, and the body loses its life. Then shall the body "dust" return to the earth as it was, before it was formed into food, and entered your mouth as food to make your flesh body healthy.
The spirit is the intellect of the soul, that gives the soul its identity. This is not complicated. When the body dies, and goes to the grave, the physical body will never have a use again, for the soul has returned to the Father, to God who created it in the first place. Because this is a promise of God, it should be what all Christians look forward to all the days of their lives. That is the day that we will be with the Father and Jesus Christ is heaven, not at some distant time in the future.

 

[n2thelight]

To equate Rev. 4:1 "come up here" to somekind of pre-tribulation escape is completely absurd. Do you no understand that John was given this vision about 2000 years ago? In this vision he was told to come up here. He....John...NOT the "church". You are trying to get me to believe that a vision 2000 years ago where John was told to come up to heaven for more prophecy somehow means pre-tribulation rapture for church in the future, when Jesus made it clear that he was going to gather his elect AFTER the tribulation....that is weak man. Please read Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

Amen!!!!

 

[Grappler]

Only to those who don't want to admit that God will deliver His church out of the final chapter of this Earth's history. Feel free to believe that if you wish.

Thank you...i will continue to believe the words of my Lord and Saviour.

 

[Grappler]

Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."

The "cistern" is the clay flesh body that our soul lives in. The cistern is built to hold the water or life that is within the flesh body, but once that bowl is broken the water or life leaks out of it, just as water leaks out of this flesh body. The "silver cord" is what holds your soul and the spirit together with the flesh body. We can call it the process of thought, which is the intellect of the mind, or soul. When one is brain dead, there is no electrical impulse within the brain, and mankind is considered dead, even though the physical body may still be pumping blood. Life support systems are generally discontinued in most cases.

When that silver cord parts, and the heavenly Father allows it to happen, and this flesh body becomes biologically dead, the very inner man departs for this physical body, and returns to the Father. This decaying body will never be used again, ever. For the soul has entered into its new incorruptible body.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

Then when? After the silver cord breaks, the mind is brain dead, and the body loses its life. Then shall the body "dust" return to the earth as it was, before it was formed into food, and entered your mouth as food to make your flesh body healthy.
The spirit is the intellect of the soul, that gives the soul its identity. This is not complicated. When the body dies, and goes to the grave, the physical body will never have a use again, for the soul has returned to the Father, to God who created it in the first place. Because this is a promise of God, it should be what all Christians look forward to all the days of their lives. That is the day that we will be with the Father and Jesus Christ is heaven, not at some distant time in the future.

No thanks i don't pay much attention to silver cords and golden bowls.lol Death is referred to as "sleep" many times in scripture. Jesus told his disciples that he would one day return so that where he is they can be also. If we go straight to be with Jesus when we die then why would he have to return so that we can be together?? There are two resurrections. The resurrection of the just to eternal life which is for us and the resurrection of judgement for the "unsaved". If we are alive with Jesus in heaven then it is rather silly to resurrect us. I will give you this...this is one of those "gray" areas in scripture that can cause a little confusion. But scripture...especially in the New Testament overwhelmingly supports "soul sleep".

 

[Grappler]

1 Thessalonians 1: 10

10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath./ (NIV)

1 Thessalonians 5: 9

9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ./ (NIV)

And this supports a pre-tribulation escape...HOW???

 

[Grappler]

1 Thessalonians 1: 10

10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath./ (NIV)

1 Thessalonians 5: 9

9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ./ (NIV)

Oh how you pre-tribbers wish that Jesus said BEFORE the tribulation of those days instead of AFTER the tribulation of those days.... If he had just said BEFORE all of your problems would just go away.

 

[reba]

Sometimes it is nice to believe Jesus meant what He said when He said this generation.

 

[n2thelight]

No thanks i don't pay much attention to silver cords and golden bowls.lol Death is referred to as "sleep" many times in scripture. Jesus told his disciples that he would one day return so that where he is they can be also. If we go straight to be with Jesus when we die then why would he have to return so that we can be together?? There are two resurrections. The resurrection of the just to eternal life which is for us and the resurrection of judgement for the "unsaved". If we are alive with Jesus in heaven then it is rather silly to resurrect us. I will give you this...this is one of those "gray" areas in scripture that can cause a little confusion. But scripture...especially in the New Testament overwhelmingly supports "soul sleep".

It's all good believe what you will,just one question how did Mosses and Elijah appear with Christ,if they were soul sleeping?Well 2 questions where did these people in the below verse come from and how are they in heaven if they are soul sleeping????

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord [Master], holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."

Dead people don't speak


Mark 12:27 "He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err."

Any one that teaches that there loved one is out there in a hole in the ground, waiting for a rapture is just as these Sadducees, greatly in err. That is what the heathen believe and it is called "soul sleep". The other piece of traditional trash that is taught today, is that some day they will join back to their dead and decayed flesh body. Wake up pal, when the flesh body is dead it is gone forever, and it will have no more of value than a hand full of dirt.

Many times pastors deal with this, where remains are dug up and moved to another place, or have been in a state of decay for a long time. Do you know what is there? Nothing but dust, and that is what Solomon was telling you inEcclesiastes 12:7. God is the God of the living and He loves all of His children. All that flesh is, is dirt and that is why it states "dust to dust". Upon death the flesh returns to the elements that it is made of.
God loves His children in a far different way than the Sadducees believed, and that is why we will step into a new body at death. We will not be married to each other, but we will all become part of the bride of Christ, or at the appointed time after judgment you simply will not exist. Yes they err greatly in their minds and knowledge of God's Word.

II Corinthians 5:7, 8 "(For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Again you asked I showed and for you to say you don't deal with the scriptures I showd ,well,anyway do you!!!!

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Thank you...i will continue to believe the words of my Lord and Saviour.

Whatever. Have a blessed life.

 

[Grappler]

It's all good believe what you will,just one question how did Mosses and Elijah appear with Christ,if they were soul sleeping?Well 2 questions where did these people in the below verse come from and how are they in heaven if they are soul sleeping????

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord [Master], holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."

Dead people don't speak


Mark 12:27 "He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err."

Any one that teaches that there loved one is out there in a hole in the ground, waiting for a rapture is just as these Sadducees, greatly in err. That is what the heathen believe and it is called "soul sleep". The other piece of traditional trash that is taught today, is that some day they will join back to their dead and decayed flesh body. Wake up pal, when the flesh body is dead it is gone forever, and it will have no more of value than a hand full of dirt.

Many times pastors deal with this, where remains are dug up and moved to another place, or have been in a state of decay for a long time. Do you know what is there? Nothing but dust, and that is what Solomon was telling you inEcclesiastes 12:7. God is the God of the living and He loves all of His children. All that flesh is, is dirt and that is why it states "dust to dust". Upon death the flesh returns to the elements that it is made of.
God loves His children in a far different way than the Sadducees believed, and that is why we will step into a new body at death. We will not be married to each other, but we will all become part of the bride of Christ, or at the appointed time after judgment you simply will not exist. Yes they err greatly in their minds and knowledge of God's Word.

II Corinthians 5:7, 8 "(For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Again you asked I showed and for you to say you don't deal with the scriptures I showd ,well,anyway do you!!!!

Yes you did! way to go! i never have read those scripture before! wow....i guess i should read scripture more often Do you detect a little sarcasm?? I hope so. Anyways would you like me to show you scripture that supports that the dead are "asleep"...RIP...snoozing away like a baby??? Do you want me to answer each of the scripture that you just showed?? I can when i have more time OR do you want to get back tototopic inwhich it appears we agree on. Just let me know...good night.