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the removal the church isnt supportable

Eugene said:
That is an idea that has floated around for some time, but only the Apostle John is invited at that time of the future Lord's Day to observe things taking place from that time on, and the twenty-four elders and four living ones are already present with John when he is caught up. Another thing about that is the fact that we're reading of things concerning the Church at that time.

Many believe that those of the Old Testament have their place and promises with the Church, and if that were so John the Baptist might have the greatest honor of being in the bride of Christ; there will be none other greater reward. Let's read about Jesus' words concerning John, and John's words of his place at the wedding. Jesus calls him the greatest among men, and yet John says that his joy is being friend of the bridegroom; not the bride.

Matthew 11:11 Verily I (Jesus) say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist . .

John 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
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thisnumbersdisconnected said:
No. The previous three chapters are about the church up to that point. Then, when John is told "Come up here," that would be synonymous with the rapture. Afterwards, the church is not mentioned. Those who are pictured as believers in the remainder of Revelation would be new believers, those who come to Christ by the witness of the 144,000 Jewish evangelists and perhaps just by the events of the Tribulation coming alive before their eyes and them remembering they've read of this before. We also have the church in Revelation 19 attending the wedding feast of the Lamb, but we are not told how the church got there. It is obvious that with John's ascent, the church is ascended as well.
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When John was on the isle of Patmos, he makes known that he is in the Spirit on the Lord's Day. Revelation 1:10. As to being filled with the Holy Spirit, John realized that every day. Another way of looking at this is to first see John caught forward in the Spirit to the Day of the Lord, in that day, and other references to the day Jesus rules and has His own throne. In Revelation 1:19 He is given a backward view of the church. the church at that day, and things which shall be hereafter.

When John is caught up to heaven, there are already some there; how and when did they arrive there? As far as all being there are only two churches of the seven in Revelation Chapters Two and Three not told to repent and that is Smyrna and Philadelphia; Philadelphia representing those alive and told they will be kept from the temptation to come upon all the world if they patiently keep the word of God in Revelation 3:10. The great multitude come out of great tribulation is also taken to heaven (Rev 7:14) prior to the 144,000 shown there in Revelation 14:1, and then I ask when the 144,000 were caught up to God.

Thanks.
 
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Eugene said:
When John was on the isle of Patmos, he makes known that he is in the Spirit on the Lord's Day. Revelation 1:10. As to being filled with the Holy Spirit, John realized that every day. Another way of looking at this is to first see John caught forward in the Spirit to the Day of the Lord, in that day, and other references to the day Jesus rules and has His own throne. In Revelation 1:19 He is given a backward view of the church. the church at that day, and things which shall be hereafter.

When John is caught up to heaven, there are already some there; how and when did they arrive there? As far as all being there are only two churches of the seven in Revelation Chapters Two and Three not told to repent and that is Smyrna and Philadelphia; Philadelphia representing those alive and told they will be kept from the temptation to come upon all the world if they patiently keep the word of God in Revelation 3:10. The great multitude come out of great tribulation is also taken to heaven (Rev 7:14) prior to the 144,000 shown there in Revelation 14:1, and then I ask when the 144,000 were caught up to God.

Thanks.
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Sorry Eugene....Jesus said he will gather his elect AFTER the tribulation not BEFORE...i am still waiting for someone to show me scripture in plain words that says anything about a pre-tribulation escape for Christians.:)
 
Grappler said:
Sorry Eugene....Jesus said he will gather his elect AFTER the tribulation not BEFORE...i am still waiting for someone to show me scripture in plain words that says anything about a pre-tribulation escape for Christians.:)
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Agreed. Some will have it easier than others. One this is for sure. The tribulation cannot be avoided unless you die before it happens. The end.
 
King James said:
Agreed. Some will have it easier than others. One this is for sure. The tribulation cannot be avoided unless you die before it happens. The end.
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Thanks King...even when i tried to play along and believe in that mistaken view i couldn't find scripture that said anything about it. Sure i could take a verse here and a verse there and then pretend that it might mean a pre-tribulation escape...but then i got tired of playing their little game and said no more...scripture is quite plain that there will not be a pre-trib. escape....so gird up your loins like a man (or a woman) and take it.:)
 
where did it not say that in this life we will have trials and tribulation? or that jesus said that the faithful wouldn't die for him or not be hated for his namesake?

isreal slew her prophets, the world killed Jesus. hmm are we greater then HIM???
 
jasoncran said:
where did it not say that in this life we will have trials and tribulation? or that jesus said that the faithful wouldn't die for him or not be hated for his namesake?

isreal slew her prophets, the world killed Jesus. hmm are we greater then HIM???
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Also agreed. In this day and age, we don't get killed as much for being christians. In Revelation, the most honored are the martyrs:

Revelation Chapter 2
[8] And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
[9] I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
[10] Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
[11] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
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Revelation Chapter 20
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Notice the conditions of Revelation 20:4. Notice the AND'S between the conditions. Notice that and means ALSO, not OR. That leaves a small minority for the millennial reign.
 
I don't believe in the millennium. im amil why? because we reign now with Christ and seated in the heavenlies. I don't need to wait for a city to reign over in order to be in the kingdom.
 
jasoncran said:
I don't believe in the millennium. im amil why? because we reign now with Christ and seated in the heavenlies. I don't need to wait for a city to reign over in order to be in the kingdom.
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That doesn't even make any sense but hey if you want to pretend that you are now sitting with Jesus in Heaven....go for it.:lol
 
Rom_5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
 
jasoncran said:
I don't believe in the millennium. im amil why? because we reign now with Christ and seated in the heavenlies. I don't need to wait for a city to reign over in order to be in the kingdom.
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Just curious,how are you here and seated in the heavenlies at the same time?Also who are you reigning over,and if Christ was reigning now,why is His kingdom at this time so messed up????
 
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Grappler said:
Sorry Eugene....Jesus said he will gather his elect AFTER the tribulation not BEFORE...i am still waiting for someone to show me scripture in plain words that says anything about a pre-tribulation escape for Christians.:)
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No need to be sorry; God forgives you. :lol

Now if you're willing to go down my road a bit I'll ask if Revelation 4:1 is prior to the tribulation or not? Revelation 4:2 shows Jesus receiving His own throne and I say it is before the events of Daniel 9:27.
:waving
 
Grappler said:
That doesn't even make any sense but hey if you want to pretend that you are now sitting with Jesus in Heaven....go for it.:lol
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then I guess im not a new creature since im well still have this body of death nor saved then until I die then eh?

And has raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
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ephesians 2:6 that is in past tense in kjv

and others http://bible.cc/ephesians/2-6.htm

the power of prayer and the authority we have Now over the devil.
 
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