It seems to be to those who think it is. It's as if Jesus cannot rule from heaven with His Church. Possibly John 14:3 will be realized. "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."
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the removal the church isnt supportable
- Thread starter jasoncran
- Start date
It seems to be to those who think it is. It's as if Jesus cannot rule from heaven with His Church. Possibly John 14:3 will be realized. "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."
Agape
Member
I think it is rather amusing when pre-tribbers bring up this idea of imminiency. I have heard some say no one knows the day and hour when Jesus is going to return...then they turn around and say that he is definitely coming before the tribulation.Which is it? do you not know or do you? I am not going to let you have it both ways. If no one knows then how do you know that it will be pre-tribulation?? maybe it is mid-tribulation? or 2 weeks before his return? or how about 2 months before his return? So you see Edward if you are going to use the arguement of 'no one knows' then you can't claim to know that it is definitly pre-trib.
pre-tribbers read the whole Bible, not just one scripture poorly interpreted. Imminency means that the Rapture could occur at any moment. It does not mean that we know when. From the very earliest days of the church, the apostles and first-generation Christians nurtured an earnest expectation and fervent hope that Christ might suddenly return at any time to gather His church to heaven. James, writing what was probably the earliest of the New Testament epistles, expressly told his readers that the Lord’s return was imminent:
Be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door! (James 5:7–9, emphasis added).
Peter echoed that same expectation when he wrote, “The end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers” (1 Pet 4:7). The writer of Hebrews cited the imminent return of Christ as a reason to remain faithful: “Let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching” (Heb 10:24–25). He wrote, “Yet a little while, and He who is coming will come and will not tarry” (v. 37). And the apostle John made the most confident pronouncement of all: “Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour” (1 John 2:18). When John recorded his vision in the book of Revelation, he prefaced it by saying these things “must shortly take place” (Rev 1:1).
The New Testament writers often wrote of Christ’s “appearing,” and they never failed to convey the sense that this could happen imminently. “And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming” (1 John 2:28; cf. 3:2; Col 3:4; 2 Tim 4:8; 1 Pet 5:4).
All those texts suggest that in the early church expectation of Christ’s imminent return ran high. A solid conviction that Christ could return at any time permeates the whole NT. When the apostle Paul described the Lord’s coming for the church, he used personal pronouns that show he clearly was convinced he himself might be among those who would be caught up alive to meet the Lord: “We who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord … . we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thess 4:15, 17, emphasis added). He obviously looked for Christ to return in his lifetime. He furthermore made it plain that a watchful, hopeful expectancy about Christ’s Second Coming is one of the godly attitudes divine grace teaches all believers: “For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:11–13, emphasis added).
http://www.gty.org/resources/articles/A368
Good point. I am not so sure about this 'Great Tribulation' of being some kind of exact time frame. We do know for sure that there will be days of tribulation and great tribulations in the time prior to the return of Jesus. And Jesus said that he will rapture his elect AFTER those days...Matt. 24 29-31.
Your a funny gal...you say we don't know when Jesus will Rapture (you capitalize it like it is some kind of official event when the word is not even in scripture....but i digress) the church and then you claim you are a pre-tribber (the very term itself makes claim that you know). Which is it? do you know for sure that it is pre-trib. or do you not? And as for taking scripture as whole i noticed you ignored the very words of our Messiah...psst he said AFTER.
From the very earliest days of the church, the apostles and first-generation Christians nurtured an earnest expectation and fervent hope that Christ might suddenly return at any time to gather His church to heaven. James, writing what was probably the earliest of the New Testament epistles, expressly told his readers that the Lord’s return was imminent:
Be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door! (James 5:7–9, emphasis added).
Peter echoed that same expectation when he wrote, “The end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers” (1 Pet 4:7). The writer of Hebrews cited the imminent return of Christ as a reason to remain faithful: “Let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching” (Heb 10:24–25). He wrote, “Yet a little while, and He who is coming will come and will not tarry” (v. 37). And the apostle John made the most confident pronouncement of all: “Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour” (1 John 2:18). When John recorded his vision in the book of Revelation, he prefaced it by saying these things “must shortly take place” (Rev 1:1).
The New Testament writers often wrote of Christ’s “appearing,” and they never failed to convey the sense that this could happen imminently. “And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming” (1 John 2:28; cf. 3:2; Col 3:4; 2 Tim 4:8; 1 Pet 5:4).
All those texts suggest that in the early church expectation of Christ’s imminent return ran high. A solid conviction that Christ could return at any time permeates the whole NT. When the apostle Paul described the Lord’s coming for the church, he used personal pronouns that show he clearly was convinced he himself might be among those who would be caught up alive to meet the Lord: “We who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord … . we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thess 4:15, 17, emphasis added). He obviously looked for Christ to return in his lifetime. He furthermore made it plain that a watchful, hopeful expectancy about Christ’s Second Coming is one of the godly attitudes divine grace teaches all believers: “For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:11–13, emphasis added).
http://www.gty.org/resources/articles/A368
Maybe you don't read scripture as a whole as well as you thought. By reading scripture as whole i have a much better idea of when Jesus is going to return than you. He told us in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. Paul also told us in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2. Check those out and you will then have a better idea when Jesus is going to return. He is not going to return within the next few years that is for sure.
From the very earliest days of the church, the apostles and first-generation Christians nurtured an earnest expectation and fervent hope that Christ might suddenly return at any time to gather His church to heaven. James, writing what was probably the earliest of the New Testament epistles, expressly told his readers that the Lord’s return was imminent:
Be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door! (James 5:7–9, emphasis added).
Peter echoed that same expectation when he wrote, “The end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers” (1 Pet 4:7). The writer of Hebrews cited the imminent return of Christ as a reason to remain faithful: “Let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching” (Heb 10:24–25). He wrote, “Yet a little while, and He who is coming will come and will not tarry” (v. 37). And the apostle John made the most confident pronouncement of all: “Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour” (1 John 2:18). When John recorded his vision in the book of Revelation, he prefaced it by saying these things “must shortly take place” (Rev 1:1).
The New Testament writers often wrote of Christ’s “appearing,” and they never failed to convey the sense that this could happen imminently. “And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming” (1 John 2:28; cf. 3:2; Col 3:4; 2 Tim 4:8; 1 Pet 5:4).
All those texts suggest that in the early church expectation of Christ’s imminent return ran high. A solid conviction that Christ could return at any time permeates the whole NT. When the apostle Paul described the Lord’s coming for the church, he used personal pronouns that show he clearly was convinced he himself might be among those who would be caught up alive to meet the Lord: “We who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord … . we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thess 4:15, 17, emphasis added). He obviously looked for Christ to return in his lifetime. He furthermore made it plain that a watchful, hopeful expectancy about Christ’s Second Coming is one of the godly attitudes divine grace teaches all believers: “For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:11–13, emphasis added).
http://www.gty.org/resources/articles/A368
Agape
Member
Your a funny gal...you say we don't know when Jesus will Rapture (you capitalize it like it is some kind of official event when the word is not even in scripture....but i digress) the church and then you claim you are a pre-tribber (the very term itself makes claim that you know). Which is it? do you know for sure that it is pre-trib. or do you not? And as for taking scripture as whole i noticed you ignored the very words of our Messiah...psst he said AFTER.
You funny Grappler don't understand what ya talking about.
I don't know the day and hour...i don't set dates....do you?
Agape
Member
Maybe you don't read scripture as a whole as well as you thought. By reading scripture as whole i have a much better idea of when Jesus is going to return than you. He told us in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. Paul also told us in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2. Check those out and you will then have a better idea when Jesus is going to return. He is not going to return within the next few years that is for sure.
We were supposed to study Matthew 24 together on a different thread, you accepted and then changed your mind and said that you were bored, and now you are telling me that you have a much better idea of when Jesus is going to return than me. Let another praise you, not your own mouth.
Jesus said AFTER. Did you know that post means AFTER? Jesus did NOT say BEFORE. Did you know that pre means BEFORE?lolYou funny Grappler don't understand what ya talking about.
jasoncran
Member
im not a post tribber. I don't believe the wrath of god will be upon the church. I believe the so called raptures verses are really about the resurrection then the judgment.that said, do you accept the idea of the ac and his making peace with isreal for 3.5 years then turning on her for 3.5 years?i don't.
Jesus said AFTER not BEFORE. Anyways pre-tribbers have a serious problem with addition also. Because in my bible i have never seen a 3rd coming of Christ...have you?? I mean if this so called Rapture is seperated from the 2nd Coming then Jesus actually returns 3 times and we should be talking about a 3rd coming also...but there is no mention of a 3rd coming in scripture...hhmm..makes you wonder. I guess Jesus comes back halfway then takes his church back to heaven and then comes again a 3rd time to stay?? Oh yeah and if all these Christians are taken away by this so called Rapture who are all of these Christians that are martyred during this so called Great Tribulation? You are aware that there are going to be martyrs for Jesus during that time??
Agape
Member
No, I did not not that post meant after, I thought post has to do with postal service. Thanks for letting me know.
Now, can you please build up serious arguments, like countering pre-trib doctrine with biblical evidence. Jesus said after what and where? (Book chapter and verse pls)
Agape
Member
Show me where pre-trib say that there is a third coming.
I don't believe the wrath of God will be upon Christians either...who said anything about that?? I do accept the idea that there will be an actual Anti-Christ a man who is basically the embodiement of Satan on Earth in the days prior to the return of our Lord. As far as the exact time frames i am not sure...probably...the books of Daniel and Revelation are very symbolic and some of these prophecies of Daniel may have already occured when Titus destroyed Jerusalem.
n2thelight
Member
If you are still in your flesh,Christ has not returned!!!!!
jasoncran
Member
please. sheesh go read what matthew henry said about this and tell me if the puritan church who taught and preached holiness and didn't make money on end times then talk was a false church. they gave a lot to the American church. hints where we get the idea of America is so important to god.
@Grappler .i went from pretrib to post trib then no trib. keep looking and you will find that its not able to stand the rigor. we don't know a lot.
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jasoncran
Member
Uh..jason that wasn't my quote that was n2thenights quote. I went from post-trib. to pre-trib. to mid-trib. and back to the truth...post-trib. You claim that you don't know a lot??? Read your bible and you will learn.
I know, uhm I have. if there is ac then what was the covenant that he made that he died for ?
so you say you have read the bible? yet you believe that the Jews will be jews when they believe in a messiah that comes to whom?
so the jews need be told the will come to save isreal or that they need jesus?
what would you tell my jewish unsaved family.
jasoncran
Member
add the parable of the wheat and the tares.if Christ is on the earth and saving souls via isreal then what exactly is the harvest that is mentioned? remember amongst the harvest in the millennium there will be some sinners and tares as well. sin is sin and to say that liars and idolatry wont happen then is akin to saying that in the millennium men wont be allowed to sin. they will forced to worship Christ.