The 'spirit' in the Bible

[Relic]

'pmeuma' has many different usages and meanings. From demonic influence, to feeling and emotion to life giving qualities.

However, when compared to the OT words 'ruach' and 'nephesh' we see that the instances of both Christ and Stephen 'giving up their spirit' is not the same as the spirits of demons. The meaning of 'giving up the ghost' as in Christ on the cross means 'to breath his last'. This is the 'ruach' that goes to God. Compare this with Job and the clear meaning of the 'spirit' of man is crystal clear. It is the life giving force that animates man and then goes back to God at death. This includes all man.

You have no scriptural support to refute it.

Again, there is no scriptural evidence that the 'pneuma' (which can be translated as a function and not a thing') that 'goes back to God who gave it' is the traditional view of the 'soul'. Sorry Relic, it is not in the scriptures. It is an assumption based on preconceived views of Greek dualism.

As for 'apparitions', when one understands the truth, one is not deceived by spiritism and the occult which is what 'ghosts' are exactly a part of.

They are demons in disguise. This erroneous belief of 'immortality of the soul' will work hugely to Satan's advantage in deceiving God's people. If he can deliver 'messages from God' through our dearly departed grandmother who visits us at night, he can truly deceive whomever he wants who believes that some part of man survives death.

Grand deception.

Just one question for you guibox.

Do you think that every appearance of spirit (so called "ghosts" "apparitions"), to those of us who are still in the vessels we call the body still on this earth, are "demons in disguise" , and/or are only a result of someone who has delved into the "occult" or "spiritism" that is not of or from the holy spirit of God the Father JEHOVAH GOD ?

.

 

[guibox]

Do you think that every appearance of spirit (so called "ghosts" "apparitions"), to those of us who are still in the vessels we call the body still on this earth, are "demons in disguise" , and/or are only a result of someone who has delved into the "occult" or "spiritism" that is not of or from the holy spirit of God the Father JEHOVAH GOD

I said it in my last post. Despite your efforts to make the 'spirit' of man something that survives and lives on after death, the Bible makes it plain that when man dies everything that would be considered the 'spirit' or 'soul' of man dies with him. This includes the emotions, the thoughts, the wisdom and knowledge of man, all the things that would be considered 'not of our flesh' that makes us spiritual beings. (See Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10; Job 14:10-14; Psalms 146:4)

Eternal life is not realized until the resurrection. This is made plain over and over and over again in the NT and the OT.

Hence, the idea that our spirits can live on on this earth and visit us is completely wrong and a foundation of the occult and spiritism. God has given us the truth in the scriptures so that we won't be deceived by these errors.

If God is going to send a messenger to give me a message, it will be through his angels and not my dearly departed grandmother. My grandmother is asleep in her grave awaiting the voice to wake her and give her life again like it was given to Adam at creation.

Argue your semantics all you want on the 'spirit', Relic, there is much more evidence to take into consideration to harmonize it.

* the meaning of death
* the lingustic language of 'soul', 'spirit'
* the emphasis on the resurrection to life
* the lack of evidence specifically saying that my loved ones are in heaven now
* the complete lack of evidence or reiteration that what goes to heaven at death is the living, thinking cogitating spiritual part of man
* the Hebrew belief in the wholism of man, and not the dualism

Sadly, you will not find all of these things harmonize with your view on the nature of man.

The other contradiction here is that you are trying to argue the 'spirit' as what is traditionally argued as the 'soul'. Which one is it? I thought that it was my 'soul' that went and frolicked in heaven with a harp when I died? Why are you saying that it is the spirit? They are not the same thing.

What do you do with the verse in Genesis when it says that 'Rebekah's soul left her'? Is this the 'spirit that goes back to God'? It can't be for the words are different.

This is the ultimate confusion of the traditionalist. They can't make up their minds on whether the 'soul' or the 'spirit' goes to heaven. Usually it is one or the other when the other doesn't hold water.

This is what happens when one doesn't understand the nature of the words used for them like CP_Mike has laid out.

Confusion, confusion, confusion. The word of God is much clearer don't you think?

 

[Relic]

Do you think that every appearance of spirit (so called "ghosts" "apparitions"), to those of us who are still in the vessels we call the body still on this earth, are "demons in disguise" , and/or are only a result of someone who has delved into the "occult" or "spiritism" that is not of or from the holy spirit of God the Father JEHOVAH GOD

guibox wrote:
I said it in my last post. Despite your efforts to make the 'spirit' of man something that survives and lives on after death, the Bible makes it plain that when man dies everything that would be considered the 'spirit' or 'soul' of man dies with him. This includes the emotions, the thoughts, the wisdom and knowledge of man, all the things that would be considered 'not of our flesh' that makes us spiritual beings. (See Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10; Job 14:10-14; Psalms 146:4)

Eternal life is not realized until the resurrection. This is made plain over and over and over again in the NT and the OT.

Hence, the idea that our spirits can live on on this earth and visit us is completely wrong and a foundation of the occult and spiritism. God has given us the truth in the scriptures so that we won't be deceived by these errors.

If God is going to send a messenger to give me a message, it will be through his angels and not my dearly departed grandmother. My grandmother is asleep in her grave awaiting the voice to wake her and give her life again like it was given to Adam at creation.

Argue your semantics all you want on the 'spirit', Relic, there is much more evidence to take into consideration to harmonize it.

* the meaning of death
* the lingustic language of 'soul', 'spirit'
* the emphasis on the resurrection to life
* the lack of evidence specifically saying that my loved ones are in heaven now
* the complete lack of evidence or reiteration that what goes to heaven at death is the living, thinking cogitating spiritual part of man
* the Hebrew belief in the wholism of man, and not the dualism

Sadly, you will not find all of these things harmonize with your view on the nature of man.

The other contradiction here is that you are trying to argue the 'spirit' as what is traditionally argued as the 'soul'. Which one is it? I thought that it was my 'soul' that went and frolicked in heaven with a harp when I died? Why are you saying that it is the spirit? They are not the same thing.

What do you do with the verse in Genesis when it says that 'Rebekah's soul left her'? Is this the 'spirit that goes back to God'? It can't be for the words are different.

This is the ultimate confusion of the traditionalist. They can't make up their minds on whether the 'soul' or the 'spirit' goes to heaven. Usually it is one or the other when the other doesn't hold water.

This is what happens when one doesn't understand the nature of the words used for them like CP_Mike has laid out.

Confusion, confusion, confusion. The word of God is much clearer don't you think?

Confusion, confusion, confusion. The word of God is much clearer don't you think?

Oh yes, we find something we agree upon. :D :



But now onto the parts in which we find ourselves in disagreement over.

quibox, where am I saying the earthly body is what goes to heaven?
No, I never even said or implied such a thing.


Notice all of the words of yours (in which I marked in bold) inside the quote box, the one that contains "your" quotes .

Now read the following:

quibox, I really think you need to go review the writings about Jesus and his words, especially, the sections in the bible were His body was missing from the tomb.

You should examine, or instance, the gardener Mary didn't recognize....

Oh guibox, there is no confusion there.... fact being that Jesus was not yet resurrected.


John 20:11-18
11 But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre, 12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. 13 And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him. 14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.


If you think we are limited and only Jesus can do that, then you are
mistaken. Jesus, being our perfect example, did not intend for us to not
be able to do as he did. He said, to follow him. That doesn't mean to
follow him only partially. He meant to follow him totally. :roll:

If Jesus can come to visit Mary before he resurrected into heaven. So
can "granny" or for that matter anyone else. And guess what! He was
conscious and talking to a person! :D


Peace .









Believe Jesus.

 

[guibox]

quibox, I really think you need to go review the writings about Jesus and his words, especially, the sections in the bible were His body was missing from the tomb.

You should examine, or instance, the gardener Mary didn't recognize....

Oh guibox, there is no confusion there.... fact being that Jesus was not yet resurrected.


John 20:11-18
11 But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre, 12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. 13 And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him. 14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.


If you think we are limited and only Jesus can do that, then you are
mistaken. Jesus, being our perfect example, did not intend for us to not
be able to do as he did. He said, to follow him. That doesn't mean to
follow him only partially. He meant to follow him totally. :roll:

If Jesus can come to visit Mary before he resurrected into heaven. So
can "granny" or for that matter anyone else. And guess what! He was
conscious and talking to a person! :D


Peace .

But Relic, Jesus was resurrected in body three days after death. This has nothing to do with a 'spirit outside the body, going to heaven immediately at death'. We do not receive a 'spiritual body' at death, but at the resurrection.

As Jesus was resurrected, so shall we. Read all of 1 Corinthians 15.

"As in Adam all die, in Christ all shall be made alive. But each in their own order. Christ the firstfruits, afterward, they that are Christ's at His coming."

"We shall all be changed. In the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump. For this corruptible must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality."

All of 1 Corinthians links Christ death and resurrection to the last day.

Your texts have NOTHING to do with the traditional concept of my 'soul' going to heaven at death and then reuniting with my body at the 2nd coming.

My dearly departed grandmother would not be coming to visit me after the last trump in her new body. She would come as an apparition probably shortly after she dies. This is what is false.

 

[Relic]

But Relic, Jesus was resurrected in body three days after death. This has nothing to do with a 'spirit outside the body, going to heaven immediately at death'. We do not receive a 'spiritual body' at death, but at the resurrection.

quibox, Are you evading the real issue again? No one ever disagrees with you about what happens after the resurrection. Can't you see that? :-? but you keep drawing on that card of yours as if to avoid the real issue that I brought up about the spirit being able to appear and visiting people after the body is in the grave. Jesus did it, before the resurrection! So can we. Hence, my experience was not demonic or occultic nor was it of the spirit that you inferred as being not of the holy spirit. :-? Jesus Had the Holy spirit before his body died on the cross. and so all those who are baptised in the holy spirit before their bodies go to the grave. WE carry those spirits with us forever, That spirit is immortal. Sorry guibox, but it is you who is confused the way in which this spirit functions! Jesus showed us by his visiting Mary before he ascended that the spirit in man is that same spirit that visits people before ascending.

If you didn't see that the message I posted was in reference to your comments about the spirit, after the body is dead in the grave, that they are still able to visiting a person before the resurrection, and how the spirit does have consciousness before the resurrection, then I wonder, how is it you didn't see that? :o

We do not receive a 'spiritual body' at death

If Jesus wasn't in the spirit in his dead body then what the heck do you think he was doing talking to Mary after he died on the cross and was taken down, "embalmed! :o and then missing from the tomb?
He was talking to Mary. He visited her and talked to her BEFORE he ascended, He raised from the dead, and talked to Mary! His spirit lives! He talked to Mary, Get it? He appeared to Mary.
You completely ignored the fact that those who have died are able to visit people, that visitation is in the spirit form! That verse never did say Jesus was in that embalmed body! It just said He appeared to Mary and talked to her! And I reiterate! If Jesus can do it so can granny or anyone else. Jesus was our perfect example and He did say for us to follow Him. He didn't mean to follow him partially, He meant totally.
WE ARE ABLE to do AS HE DID. Yes, even before the resurrection we are able to appear in spirit form that looks like a flesh body. People on earth marvel when this happens to them! They freak out! :
But you just deny it! and ignore the evidence by diverting the issue onto another one that was brought up. Seems you just can't deal with anyone when it comes to facing issues ONE AT A TIME. :roll: You have to draw a card the you think trumps the real issue but it doesn't. It avoids the issue. For shame guibox. :-?

Why do you avoid the proof by diverting the real issue and making as if the spirit is not conscious after the death of the flesh?
Jesus came and visited people before he ascended to heaven, Don't you get it? He died! He came and visited people and talked to them and he was conscious. :-?

Why do you divert the attention like that? :o


Believe Jesus.
.

 

[Drew]

I brought up about the spirit being able to appear and visiting people after the body is in the grave. Jesus did it, before the resurrection!

When? When did Jesus appear to people while his body was in the grave. Are you possibly confusing resurrection with ascension. As I understand things, Jesus was resurrected on the third day and then appeared to people before his ascension.

 

[Drew]

I suspect that there is an extremely deeply ingrained idea in the western Christian mind that there must be an immaterial soul or spirit. It is an a priori assumption that is brought to a reading of the Scriptures.

I think that this view is understandable (not correct, but understandable) when one contemplates the consequences of physical death. Suppose poor Christian named Fred is zapped by lightning and reduced to ashes. As Christians, we believe that Fred 's ultimate destiny is heaven.

While I think the following thought process is never explicitlyexperienced, we cannot accept that Fred has been extinguished - even temporarily. And here is the key point: We "invent" the concept of an immaterial soul to serve as a "place" for Fred to carry on his existence till he is clothed in a resurrection body.

The motivation to invent such a concept lies in our inability to conceive how Fred is not permanently lost otherwise. But I think that there is an alternative.

As we move through the computer age, humanity is slowly coming to accept the "reality" of information - that information can be said to something that enjoys existence. For example, as a result of the computer revolution we can now at least sensibly concieve that the same program (information) can be made to run on any physical platform at all (that can represent binary states).

So I think we can bring this competing way to conceive of what happens at death. We are "safe in God" in the sense that His mind retains the information that is effectively our essence. We are not lost. We are not really gone, although as subjects of experience we are indeed "asleep". However, God has the "program" for us and is waiting to download it into a resurrection body.

 

[2Pillars]

Dear Friends.

Ever wonder why Jesus went to the "SPIRITS IN PRISON" (in Noah's generations) and preached to them after his resurrection?

Based on guibox' and co. flawed doctrinal belief, those wicked spirits should have already been returned God who gave it (?), accordingly!

But, why did Peter is refuting their doctrinal assumption???

It's simple, the spirits in prison were unclean and NOT purify therefore, NOT allowed in God's Kindom of heaven. But because thru the blood of Jesus, they were being given a chance to believe the gospel.

Note: Read and learn guibox and company....

1Peter 3

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the SPIRITS IN PRISON;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Again, if we follow guibox and co'. religious belief, then we might as well take away all of the text I've been citing, which are clearly contrary to their religious view - Ridiculous, isn't it?


God Bless

 

[stovebolts]

We do not receive a 'spiritual body' at death

How do you explain Samuel?

1 Samuel 28:9-14 And the woman said unto him, Behold, you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off those that are mediums, and the wizards, out of the land: why then lay you a snare for my life, to cause me to die? And Saul swore to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD lives, there shall no punishment happen to you for this thing. Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto you? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, Why have you deceived me? for you are Saul. And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what saw you? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw a god ascending out of the earth. And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man comes up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

1 Samuel 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disturbed me, to bring me up? And Saul answered,.....

hmmm... bring ME upppp :wink:

 

[guibox]

Relic,

You are really confused. Christ showed himself in His new resurrection body, not the body He died with. This is the power of the resurrection. We are given new bodies. This is what happened with Christ. He was not some spirit that showed Himself before resurrection. 'Touch my hands and see that I am flesh and blood'

This was a new body.

I really don't know what you are arguing here. Your posts are beginning to sound along the lines of John the Baptist here.

Again, please go back and read 1 Corinthians 15.

Note: Read and learn guibox and company....

1Peter 3

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the SPIRITS IN PRISON;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Again, if we follow guibox and co'. religious belief, then we might as well take away all of the text I've been citing, which are clearly contrary to their religious view - Ridiculous, isn't it?

This verse is always grossly misinterpreted. What are these“spirits in prison� When you look at all the verses together and not just vs 19, you will see that this is not talking about the afterlife at all but the power of the Spirit that Christ was given.

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit - 1 Peter 3:18

The Holy Spirit raised Christ up from the dead. What else did this spirit allow Christ to do?

By which (the Spirit) also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison - vs 19

This verse does not tell us WHEN Christ preached to the spirits in prison, nor what nature this preaching occurred, or what is meant by "in prison". To assume that it was when Christ died is a gratuitous assumption that you cannot find in the text..

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water - vs 20

There we go. The preaching to the lost "souls" or people, was Christ (who existed long before he was on this earth) through Noah, pleading with the hearts of the people who were in their sins and who ignored Noah and God's pleading to be saved from the flood. It was by the Holy Spirit that raised Christ that this preaching occurred for the anti-deluvians. There is no mention of Christ going to "hell" or being alive at death to go and preach to people.

Stovebolts,

The witch of Endor was an obvious example of demonic impersonation and simple association for the sake of the story based on the perceptions of those involved.

First of all, God absolutely forbade such contact with mediums. I highly doubt that he'd allow one of His prophets speak through an abominable activity

Second, the rest of the Hebrew scriptures show without a doubt the wholism of man and that man's consciousness ceases at death and awaits resurrection.

Third, notice that it says that Saul 'perceived' it was Samuel based on a vague description. It doesn't actually say it was THE Samuel.

Fourth, notice that it says that Samuel came UP. By the traditional view of the soul, Samuel should have come DOWN. If he did in fact come from the grave, it would have had to be an actual resurrection for the scriptures make it plain that "there is no might, nor work, nor wisdom, nor knowledge in Sheol where thou goest". This is is the essence of man, what we would traditionally call the 'soul'. It doesn't survive death.

 

[Relic]

.

a bunch of rams butting heads! :


.

 

[Relic]

.

I'm tired of this,
you guys keep infering things that aren't so and asking me about things I never wrote.


.

 

[SputnikBoy]

.

I'm tired of this,
you guys keep infering things that aren't so and asking me about things I never wrote.

:smt056

 

[2Pillars]

Dear SputnikBoy,

Let me remind you that I called your bluff and raising you twise as much. Do you have any direct rebuttal using the Scripture to support your view?

I am waiting. :-D

BUMP to SputnikBoy

Anyway, back to the REAL topic. I asked this question of you previously and now I ask it again, pillars. What did God do to make Adam into a 'living, breathing human being'? You ignored the question before ...is there a chance that you can answer it now? A simple, coherent answer will suffice.[/color]

Dear SputnikBoy,

You must be playing dumb not to see where I stand on this subject. As I have posted many times before, the breath of life given to Adam in Genesis 2:7 was not a “breath of spirit†as you and your friend continue to assume. That’s just based on your flawed religious view which is NOT supported by the Scripture.

Had it been the case, the Scripture would have documented it so - the same similar way John 20:22 documented it specifically to avoid your confussion.

And in order to get a Breath of Spirit, common sense dictates that you must be ALIVE (living soul) to receive it - just as it happened at the Pentacost.

John 20:22 “And when he had said this, HE BREATH ON THEM, and saith unto them, "RECEIVED YE THE HOLY GHOST:â€Â

The Scripture is very clear…..

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Again, the first Adam was just an innocent NATURAL MAN in the beginning before he acquired the spirit of consciousness of good and evil when ate the fruit of tree of knowledge. However, the Last Adam was FORGIVEN of his sin and was given a quickening spirit – a life giving spirit, which you only get from God.

Now, here are some of the previous issues I raised before on this thread. The fact is I have never gotten a direct rebuttal from anyone of you who hold the same distorted assumption. Here’s your chance to stand up and defend your doctrinal teachings. I will be waiting for a DIRECT REBUTTAL .

Dear Mike,

The bone of contention here, just to give you an idea … guidbox ASSUMED that the “breath of life†given to Adam in the beginning Genesis 2:7 was actually his spirit or consciousness which equates to the knowledge of good and evil.

IF so, based on his/her assumption, then, all creatures and animals that was given the same breath of life - formed with nostrils Gen. 7:22 – also have spirit - the knowledge of good and evil. Absurd, isn’t it?

The actual usage of the definite article “THE†to describe THE BREATH OF LIFE (not neshama) should have served as a hint that his/her theory is flawed.. Had it been the case, the Scripture would have specifically described it so, as it is clearly documented on this cited text below..

look and read….

John 20:22 “And when he had said this, HE BREATH ON THEM, and saith unto them, "RECEIVED YE THE HOLY GHOST:â€Â

As everybody could see, the text is very specific describing what kind of breath that was given - to avoid this kind of guidbox’ confusion.

Now, to answer your question specifically -

Adam and Eve were innocent of the knowledge of the spirit (consciousness) good and evil until they ate the fruit of the Tree of Knoweldge. It was only then, they learned about shame and guilt of what they have done.

Our INHERITED natural spirit of consciousness of good and evil only came about after Adam’s had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge.

Therefore, your question of the hardening of the heart of Sihon king of Heshbon became possible because of the reason stated above.

God knows that natural man’s consciousness to good is willing, but, the flesh is weak, therefore, will necessitate his spiritual help. That’s why we are called upon, to be born again, spiritually.

Scripture also clearly documents us that unless you are born again in the Spirit of God, you CANNOT enter the kingdom of God.

Based on the above, how can someone like guidbox take a position that uncleaned spirits will return to God - who gave it ??? - is beyond my imagination.

Read my lips guidbox, God, who is Holy, do not pour uncleaned spirits to us, therefore, the same will not return to his Kingdom.

While you’re at it, please tell our readers whether you also believe, just like guibox, that the context of cited passages below talk about “demonic beings (literal) Mat. 12:41-45. YES or NO?

Also, please explain this parable, the MAN who DENIED his own family - brother, sister and his mother - from without desiring to speak to him in verese 46-50.

Read again and let somebody explain to you this parable.

Matthew12
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
43 When the UNCLEAN SPIRIT is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother

 

[SputnikBoy]

Prior to 1988 I knew very little about the Bible per se. Sure, I did possess the usual preconceived notions about heaven and hell, what happens when we die, etc. etc. ...the things that we automatically pick up along life's journey and don't question. Our minds take in these notions and they eventually become cherished 'facts'. In fact, should anyone come along and suggest otherwise can cause us to get uptight. We constantly see examples of this kind of thing on the forum. We hate to be shaken out of our comfort zones and we'll fight to remain in them if need be.

Then, in 1988, came some serious Bible study for me. I was told that the study might well shatter some of the preconceived, taken for granted, teachings of mainstream Christianity that I already had. I felt that I was willing to take that risk since I WAS searching for the truth. Even so, while I took great interest in learning as much as I could about the Bible - a book that had previously bored me to death - I remained somewhat sceptical or suspicious to any 'new idea' that might be introduced.

It soon became clearly evident that I needed to remove the blinders that I wore and allow the scriptures themselves to speak to me. It became JUST as glaringly evident to me that SO many Christians throughout the world believe more in the 'myths' that are taught as 'scriptural truths' by their church than they do in what the scriptures ACTUALLY say. I was amazed by the realization that so many otherwise intelligent human beings will allow themselves to be so willingly duped by falsehoods. This realization STILL amazes me.

While guibox and I are affiliated with the same denomination (SDA), he has presented a clear and concise explanation of this topic as well as others on this board FROM THE SCRIPTURES ALONE. In fact, anyone who has the willingness to shed preconceived notions if need be should have no problem seeing this common sense and scriptural approach to the issue under debate. Those who are unwilling, however, will NEVER see the truth. They will continue to defend - militantly if need be - something that is no more than a popular myth. 'Fairy stories' concerning the scriptures abound within mainstream Christianity. Old habits die hard. This fact is VERY disconcerting ...especially in the area of Christianity where 'the truth' is paramount.

 

[mutzrein]

Have been watching this thread a little and am quite intrigued by some of the things people are saying. I’ve had to sit on my hands until now waiting for my account to be activated so I could post.

Now I am not a scholar, but neither am I void of an ability to reason so can I ask a question or two here?

Guibox seems to be saying that he believes something different to the traditional Christian view of things. So, because of my ignorance of such things (and I think I am a little different too) can you please outline the difference in your beliefs concerning what happens to man when he dies.
It seems to me, the most commonly adhered to ‘christian’ view is that when man dies physically, the ‘eternal’ part of him lives on. And, those who are ‘christians’ go to heaven to an eternal reward while the rest go to hell and remain in eternal torment for ever.

Now I’m looking for something easy to understand and without lists of verses backing up your belief. While I certainly don’t want to negate what scripture says I would like something in your own words which says what each person believes happens to man when he dies. And for the moment, can we leave the issue of whether the ‘eternal’ part is called ‘soul’ or ‘spirit’ or an amalgamation of both or even if either or neither are eternal.

What do you say happens to man when he dies?

Anyone who cares to, I’d appreciate it.

Thanks

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

:bday:

 

[Hawkins]

Interesting topic. When it's said that one's soul/spirit is *put to a sleep* is far from equivalent to say that the soul/spirit *dies* with one's body.

Unless of course, you formulate the equation that sleeping = dieing.

:angel:

So the question left (when you assume a sleep) is who's going to wake it up.

:wink:

For once, I saw my own spirit(s) floating out of my body, but still I cant tell much theoretically.

Good read anyway.

 

[stovebolts]

Stovebolts,

The witch of Endor was an obvious example of demonic impersonation and simple association for the sake of the story based on the perceptions of those involved.

First of all, God absolutely forbade such contact with mediums. I highly doubt that he'd allow one of His prophets speak through an abominable activity

Second, the rest of the Hebrew scriptures show without a doubt the wholism of man and that man's consciousness ceases at death and awaits resurrection.

Third, notice that it says that Saul 'perceived' it was Samuel based on a vague description. It doesn't actually say it was THE Samuel.

Fourth, notice that it says that Samuel came UP. By the traditional view of the soul, Samuel should have come DOWN. If he did in fact come from the grave, it would have had to be an actual resurrection for the scriptures make it plain that "there is no might, nor work, nor wisdom, nor knowledge in Sheol where thou goest". This is is the essence of man, what we would traditionally call the 'soul'. It doesn't survive death.

ooyyyy.. :roll:

Anyway, sorry I butted in. Take care

 

[guibox]

would like something in your own words which says what each person believes happens to man when he dies. And for the moment, can we leave the issue of whether the ‘eternal’ part is called ‘soul’ or ‘spirit’ or an amalgamation of both or even if either or neither are eternal.

What do you say happens to man when he dies?

Anyone who cares to, I’d appreciate it.

Thanks

Here goes...

Man is a wholistic being...all the parts make up the whole and one cannot survive without the other. When man sinned, he began to die and death was his final destination for 'the wages of sin is death'.(Romans 6:23)

Christ came and conquered death for 'whosoever should believeth in Him"(John 3:16). Christ was our example and the 'firstfruits' of them that 'sleepeth'. He died and was raised in body. So will we follow this pattern. Eternal life is not realized in 'immediate life after death' in some disembodied soul or spirit. It is realized at the resurrection of the just at the end of time in a new body. Man is again made whole as he was at creation (see 1 Corinthians 15).

Man does not have an immortal soul, he IS a soul (a living being). An immortal soul is a Greek concept, not a Hebrew/Christian one. When we all die, we do not go straight to heaven or 'hell', but await resurrection (either 1st or 2nd - see Revelation 20).