The spirit of antichrist

[Imagican]

ginger just inspired a pretty potent revelation.

When asked 'how' they should pray, Jesus ansered and said, Our Father............. Wouldn't He have been offering this prayer JUST as it should be offered? And wouldn't HE have been actually PRAYING as He demonstrated the 'correct way'? So, if He stated 'Our Father.........' wouldn't He have been, in essence, stating that God WAS His Father as well as ours? And if this IS the case, WHY would Jesus, (who according to 'trinity' WAS God), pray to Himself?

And what is EVEN more confusing is the statement that Christ made upon the cross, "My Father, why hath 'thou' forsaken me'? Wow, does this mean that at one point Jesus became NOTHING but a 'man' and that the Spirit of God abandoned Him COMPLETELY? Or does it offer that Jesus WAS the Son of God previous to His being made 'flesh', and that at the moment He made this statement, He was, for the first time in history, SEPERATED from God to 'take on the sins of the world'? Like ANY child that was abandoned by their parent in whom they trusted, wouldn't this offer the understanding of what took place between Christ and HIS Father?

So, here's Christ following the will of the Father. But regardless of His understanding, there would have been NO WAY for Him to understand 'being alone' without EVER having actually experiencing it. So, here we have evidence that supports Jesus AS the Son of God. But evidence that contradicts Christ AS God the Son.

 

[gingercat]

ok, Id dont get what you want to say.

Would you clerify it by actual relationship with God? How do you act your relationship with God?

Do you mean how do I live for God or what is my walk with Him? Is this what you are asking?

Yes, thats what I am asking.

 

[gingercat]

ginger just inspired a pretty potent revelation.

When asked 'how' they should pray, Jesus ansered and said, Our Father............. Wouldn't He have been offering this prayer JUST as it should be offered? And wouldn't HE have been actually PRAYING as He demonstrated the 'correct way'? So, if He stated 'Our Father.........' wouldn't He have been, in essence, stating that God WAS His Father as well as ours? And if this IS the case, WHY would Jesus, (who according to 'trinity' WAS God), pray to Himself?

And what is EVEN more confusing is the statement that Christ made upon the cross, "My Father, why hath 'thou' forsaken me'? Wow, does this mean that at one point Jesus became NOTHING but a 'man' and that the Spirit of God abandoned Him COMPLETELY? Or does it offer that Jesus WAS the Son of God previous to His being made 'flesh', and that at the moment He made this statement, He was, for the first time in history, SEPERATED from God to 'take on the sins of the world'? Like ANY child that was abandoned by their parent in whom they trusted, wouldn't this offer the understanding of what took place between Christ and HIS Father?

So, here's Christ following the will of the Father. But regardless of His understanding, there would have been NO WAY for Him to understand 'being alone' without EVER having actually experiencing it. So, here we have evidence that supports Jesus AS the Son of God. But evidence that contradicts Christ AS God the Son.

Imagican,

You know trinitarians are ignoring those clear Jesus' identities.

 

[Johny]

And what is EVEN more confusing is the statement that Christ made upon the cross, "My Father, why hath 'thou' forsaken me'? Wow, does this mean that at one point Jesus became NOTHING but a 'man' and that the Spirit of God abandoned Him COMPLETELY? Or does it offer that Jesus WAS the Son of God previous to His being made 'flesh', and that at the moment He made this statement, He was, for the first time in history, SEPERATED from God to 'take on the sins of the world'? Like ANY child that was abandoned by their parent in whom they trusted, wouldn't this offer the understanding of what took place between Christ and HIS Father?

When Jesus said "My God, My God, why hath thou forsaken me?" you notice that he repeats "God". At that time he was carrying the sins of all man kind. We know that God hates sin. Is it not possible that at that time He was abandoned by the Father and the Holy Spirit?

Also, I think it was Ezekiel who had seen God. "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord of Hosts" Why did he repeat "Holy" three times? He saw the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Imagican, you're trying to understand something that cannot be fully understood with a human mind.

 

[Imagican]

Heard that one before. If it 'cannot' be understood by a 'human mind', why then would a 'human mind' insist on 'creating' a 'tinity'?

This argument is moot. God created US in HIS image. There is NOTHING that we cannot understand if it IS His will for us to understand. While I will agree that men 'without' The Spirit to 'guide them' will inherently NOT understand the 'things of God', those that DO allow The Spirit to guide them, MAY understand ANYTHING that The Spirit reveals.

Many that accept 'trinity' seem to ignore the 'simplicity' that IS Christ Jesus. Not surprising that it is difficult, (impossible in my opinion), to explain 'trinity' in that one must choose to simply 'accept' the doctrine without any 'true' Biblical evidence to support it. Yeah, one can 'choose' to read evidence into the Bible. But the Bible does NOT support 'trinity' as those that accept it would have others believe. THAT is WHY it is so difficult to understand; it is NOT supported by the Bible. it's really NOT the mystery that you would have it be. It is an easy thing to understand and explain. You just have to understand the 'truth' behind it to do so.

 

[Imagican]

And what is EVEN more confusing is the statement that Christ made upon the cross, "My Father, why hath 'thou' forsaken me'? Wow, does this mean that at one point Jesus became NOTHING but a 'man' and that the Spirit of God abandoned Him COMPLETELY? Or does it offer that Jesus WAS the Son of God previous to His being made 'flesh', and that at the moment He made this statement, He was, for the first time in history, SEPERATED from God to 'take on the sins of the world'? Like ANY child that was abandoned by their parent in whom they trusted, wouldn't this offer the understanding of what took place between Christ and HIS Father?

When Jesus said "My God, My God, why hath thou forsaken me?" you notice that he repeats "God". At that time he was carrying the sins of all man kind. We know that God hates sin. Is it not possible that at that time He was abandoned by the Father and the Holy Spirit?

Also, I think it was Ezekiel who had seen God. "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord of Hosts" Why did he repeat "Holy" three times? He saw the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Imagican, you're trying to understand something that cannot be fully understood with a human mind.

Oh, I forgot to add: the Holy Spirit IS the Spirit of God. You choose to 'make it' a 'second person'. I simply understand it AS the Spirit of God. So, the repeating of My Father, My Father, MAY have the significance of which you spoke 'to you', to me it is simply a 'sign' of the utter torment that Christ was suffering when filled with 'all the sin of man' and the Father being FORCED to abandon Him.

 

[Johny]

Then why does the Bible say that when we receive our new bodies, "we will be like Him for we have seen Him as He is". According to you we're capable of understanding everything, so why would we change?

 

[wavy]

When Jesus said "My God, My God, why hath thou forsaken me?" you notice that he repeats "God". At that time he was carrying the sins of all man kind. We know that God hates sin. Is it not possible that at that time He was abandoned by the Father and the Holy Spirit?

No. That's speculation not found in the text. What is supported by the text is that quoting the first part of that Psalm (the 22nd one), he was letting us know that that Psalm was being fulfilled. He said the Father never leaves him alone because he always does those things that pleases him.

And guess what Isaiah says? He says that it pleased Yahweh to bruise/crush him. Therefore he did not forsake him.

Also, I think it was Ezekiel who had seen God. "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord of Hosts" Why did he repeat "Holy" three times? He saw the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

No, actually that was Isaiah and John in Isaiah 6:3 and Revelation 4:8. But anyway, reading the trinity into the text is just that--reading the trinity into the text.

 

[Johny]

For those who don't believe in the Trinity, that's fine. Believe what you want, because frankly it doesn't affect me either way.

God bless.

 

[R7-12]

Hi Johnny,

The texts where we find Christ speaking to the Father just prior to his death are Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34,

His words are translated, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?†But we are given his actual spoken words which were,

Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani.

They are Syrio-Chaldaic which was the common language of this time. The Hebrew rendering would have God’s contracted name as Eloi.

Eli or Eloi, are contracted forms of the personal name of God the Father - Eloah, which admits of no plurality. The Hebrew text of Psalm 22 renders it with the still shorter, My El, My El.

The son of God was calling out to his God and Father – Eloah, who did not forsake him but heard him as it is written in Psalm 22:24,
For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Nor has He hidden His face from Him; But when He cried to Him, He heard.

R7-12

 

[Klee shay]

1 John 4:2-3

"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."

I would like to see where the additional scriptural criteria comes from, which enables a non-trinitarian (in other words someone who doesn't believe Jesus was God himself) to be accused of following the spirit of antichrist?

Not to be judgmental but it seems from the scripture you provided that trinitarians are the ones following the spirit of the antichrist for they believe Jesus was not just flesh but possessed God Spirit in a hypostatic union.

Who demands that one should accept that Jesus was fully God when He was on earth? And anyone who doesn't believe in such is labeled a cult. But you can't add to what John already says ...every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God(not a cult).

I would definitely like to see a trinitarian take up this task of showing how anyone who doesn't believe that Jesus as God the Son but believes in The Son of God is a non-believer from the scriptures without adding or taking away from it.

Yes, I take the scripture to mean that we confess Jesus is "Christ" come in the flesh. By confessing that he came in the flesh is acknowledging his human form. Jesus took on the image of God (performing miracles in his name and showing mercy) but he also took on the image of mankind - being born of a mother; living amongst men and dying afterward.

The only difference is that Jesus did not remain dead as any mortal man would. He became resurrected in a new body; showing himself briefly to this friends and then ascending to heaven to take his place by his father's right-hand side. Did this then make him an idol to be worshipped above God however?

Wouldn't that make Jesus a hypocrite then? For in his lifetime Jesus taught that all of mankind is under his father's authority (to which even he was under) giving thanks to the Father for all things. Then to turn around and suddenly become God through the revelation of scripture given after the resurrection; renders his life's work a hipocracy.

Jesus had to be whom he declared in the flesh in order to become one with the Father. If he had already been the father then why would we need to confess he came in the flesh?

 

[Klee shay]

No, but the use of "come in the flesh", imo, indicates that some were saying the promised Messiah didn't come in the flesh, i.e. he came by some other means. He was a phantom, or some type of spirit being who merely feigned human flesh. That would seem to fit the context more. "Yeshua the Messiah" didn't come in the flesh from heaven because "Yeshua the Messiah" didn't exist in heaven. Catch what I mean: this is not about his preexistence, this is about his nature and the title given to him here. So let's say he did exist in heaven before he came here. He wasn't known as Yeshua the Messiah until he got here, therefore "Yeshua the Messiah" could not have come in the flesh from heaven.

I believe John is arguing for his humanity, not for his deity.

Agreed. I have yet to find anything Jesus said which made him equal with his father beyond the authority his father gave him. If his father was not an authority above Jesus then why would anything be "given" him. Couldn't Jesus just assume it for he is God?

The fact Jesus placed a lot of emphasis on God's authority, teaching even the authority he had was given him; teaching the commandment that he could lay down his life and take it up, was given him once again from his father - demonstrates a willingness to accept and use the gifts given of the father without necessarily assuming the "role" of his father.

But you also make the valid point that no-matter who Jesus was before he was born in the flesh...our salvation depends on the fact we confess that Jesus was the Christ prophesied of "come in the flesh".

 

[mutzrein]

Gingercat

There are many things that we do that reflect our relationship with and faith in God. But doing them, in and of themselves, does not ACHIEVE that relationship. We do them BECAUSE of that relationship, not so that we may attain it.

Now I perceive that there are many who believe that they are made righteous, or attain relationship with God, BY what they do. But in truth we are not made righteous by anything except our faith and trust in God. Those who are righteous will of course show by the things they do that they walk by faith. This is the fruit of righteousness. Anything else is self righteousness.

And so there is no formula or set of things to do in order that we can be said to be a Christian or Christ-like or show our relationship with God. Those who are born of the Spirit of God, who walk by faith, have the law written on their hearts. So they love God and their neighbour not out of duty or command but because it is their nature (as God’s children) to do so.

If we believe that we have to set our minds to do certain things because we believe we are Christians and since this is what Christians do, we do them, then we are not producing the fruit of righteousness – but dressing ourselves in filthy rags.

 

[R7-12]

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the sake of the joy that was set before him endured the cross, disregarding its shame, and has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such hostility against himself from sinners, so that you may not grow weary or lose heart. 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as children “My child, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, or lose heart when you are punished by him; 6 for the Lord disciplines those whom he loves, and chastises every child whom he accepts.†7 Endure trials for the sake of discipline. God is treating you as children; for what child is there whom a parent does not discipline? 8 If you do not have that discipline in which all children share, then you are illegitimate and not his children (Hebrews 12:1-8, NRSV).

There may yet come a time when our struggles against sin become so great that we will be willing to shed blood rather than break the law of God - that is, if we even care to struggle against sin now.

R7-12

 

[gingercat]

Gingercat

There are many things that we do that reflect our relationship with and faith in God. But doing them, in and of themselves, does not ACHIEVE that relationship. We do them BECAUSE of that relationship, not so that we may attain it.

Now I perceive that there are many who believe that they are made righteous, or attain relationship with God, BY what they do. But in truth we are not made righteous by anything except our faith and trust in God. Those who are righteous will of course show by the things they do that they walk by faith. This is the fruit of righteousness. Anything else is self righteousness.

And so there is no formula or set of things to do in order that we can be said to be a Christian or Christ-like or show our relationship with God. Those who are born of the Spirit of God, who walk by faith, have the law written on their hearts. So they love God and their neighbour not out of duty or command but because it is their nature (as God’s children) to do so.

If we believe that we have to set our minds to do certain things because we believe we are Christians and since this is what Christians do, we do them, then we are not producing the fruit of righteousness – but dressing ourselves in filthy rags.

Yes, there is simple formula mutz. It is being Jesus' faithful servant. Jesus was His Father's the most faithful One and we should be as such.

 

[mutzrein]

Gingercat

There are many things that we do that reflect our relationship with and faith in God. But doing them, in and of themselves, does not ACHIEVE that relationship. We do them BECAUSE of that relationship, not so that we may attain it.

Now I perceive that there are many who believe that they are made righteous, or attain relationship with God, BY what they do. But in truth we are not made righteous by anything except our faith and trust in God. Those who are righteous will of course show by the things they do that they walk by faith. This is the fruit of righteousness. Anything else is self righteousness.

And so there is no formula or set of things to do in order that we can be said to be a Christian or Christ-like or show our relationship with God. Those who are born of the Spirit of God, who walk by faith, have the law written on their hearts. So they love God and their neighbour not out of duty or command but because it is their nature (as God’s children) to do so.

If we believe that we have to set our minds to do certain things because we believe we are Christians and since this is what Christians do, we do them, then we are not producing the fruit of righteousness – but dressing ourselves in filthy rags.

Yes, there is simple formula mutz. It is being Jesus' faithful servant. Jesus was His Father's the most faithful One and we should be as such.

Yes of course Jesus was faithful to His Father. He was faithful and still is of course because he is God's son. But how can you be faithful without the relationship with the Father in the first place. And this is exactly what I'm saying. Our relationship to God does not RESULT FROM what we do. The end result of this is self righteousness. Rather, what we do stems from our faith in Him and faithfulness to Him, because of that relationship. And this is the righteousness that we have in Christ.

Consider the sheep and the goats. The sheep did what they did because it was their nature. They were righteous because of what they were, rather than what they did. But the goats did what they did because they believed in doing it, they would become righteous. And this unfortunately is the state of many in Christendom today.

 

[gingercat]

Muz,

You are making it more complicated than it is. God wants to be live with us in His kingdom under His rulership. Christians are Jesus' followers. All we have to do is read the Bible and learn how to be His disciples. Christians are Jesus' followers and God's servants. It soulds like you want to preach other than being His disciples.

Jesus' last and most important command; "Make disiples of all nations, teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." Are you heeding this command?

 

[mutzrein]

Muz,

You are making it more complicated than it is. God wants to be live with us in His kingdom under His rulership. Christians are Jesus' followers. All we have to do is read the Bible and learn how to be His disciples. Christians are Jesus' followers and God's servants. It soulds like you want to preach other than being His disciples.

Jesus' last and most important command; "Make disiples of all nations, teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." Are you heeding this command?

Hi again Ginge

As far as heeding Jesus' commands, I do so in the same manner that Jesus heeded the commands of His Father. This was not by a written code but by the spirit. Now if God leads me to speak to a neighbour, a friend, a stranger about the gospel then I do so, not in the flesh but in the power of the Spirit that enables the word to be received by that person either to be planted, watered or harvested. It is God that gives the increase.

Now, I'm not making it complicated at all. What is complicated about being God's child? I think what is complicated to you is that you don't undertsand what I'm saying. This concept seems to be foreign to you.

 

[gingercat]

Muz,

Jesus teaching is not confusing or complicated. You are making it sound complicated. Why are you doing it?

 

[Georges]

spirit of the anitchrist.....


Some rhetorical musings....

Is the spirit of the antichrist similar to the Holy Spirit in that it is a separate entity in the antichristhead?

In other words...If the Holy Spirit is the third person...btw, why isn't the HS the first or second person....why is he relegated to the number 3 slot? But, I digress,

If the HS is the 3rd person in the Godhead, is the spirit of the AC the second person in the AChead?