The spirit of antichrist

[lovely]

Dear Kleeshay, and mutzrein,

I have read through both of your posts, and thank you for taking the time to write them. I am writing one back to you, or have been for the past half hour, but I must turn in for the night. I want to respond, and am looking forward to continuing this discussion with you both. I will finish it, and post as soon as I am able. The Lord bless you both.

Lovely

 

[John the Baptist]

[quote="John the Baptist":2f6ac]John here: (John the poster upper! :wink

This 'bird's' Revelation 18:2 'post' misses my point in the remark below. What I had said in bottom line, is that the candidate for baptism was still seen in walking [OPENLY] from the Eternal DOCTRINE of Christ, as in Revelation 14:6's Gospel & the Eternal Doctrine of His Covenant of Hebrews 13:20.
In my plain Words, and bottom line, he is not a Christian yet ready for Matthews 28:20's step! Coming to Christ is not the question, it is taking the step of accepting Him that is the question! And it does not take any insight to see that those who creat a angel Christ, do not!

And teaching Christ as an created angel, an openly documented lie on top of all? : Rubbish in the simplist terms!! (2 Peter 2:21-22!!) I have a video from some of these birds from several years back that claimed that we taught that the Godhead had three heads! They are sick with their 2 Corinthians 4:2 stuff!!

Quote: "And herein lies the deception of the doctrine of Trinity. Understand the Trinity as declared by Jesus is not a deception but rather the doctrine we are supposedly anointed with in order to be saved accordingly, is.

This is also why I disagree with John The Baptist (the forum member) who said he couldn't baptise anyone who did not agree with Matthew 28:20. Jesus instructed that we were not to deny the children to come to him. Denying to baptise someone based on the doctrine of Trinity is denying one from coming to Christ. And what were the consequences Jesus said for those who would deny the children from the kingdom of heaven?"

Hi John. :D

Would you agree that it is Christ who baptises in the Holy Spirit and that no man can judge rightly who is able to receive it?

***
No, I do not agree with any 'dis-order' of Christ not having a Virgin Fold. Ephesians 4:5 If so, we would see sin once again raise its ugly head in Heaven. Nahum 1:9.
There will never be any 'Loose cannons' there with one believing this & one believing that doctrine for Virgin Doctrine, ever again!'

And being Born Again?? That is just the starting point! Acts 5:32 & then Romans 8:14 ..."IF" one [will be Led]. And I find that these 'Birds' have a hobby subject of Anti/Christ/God/ism! :

They come to the place of no return in 'several' years of full maturity. Hebrews 6:6 as seen in James 1:15's ENDING. Or 1 John 5:16-17. Even as in many repeats, as in 27-34 AD. No, when mature rebellion is reached, there is nothing more that can be done after several 'times' pass. Leviticus 16:14 & Leviticus 17:8-9. Or see Genesis 4:7 in the K.J. with Christ/God talking in personage to Cain. The choice was his to make.
***

Whether a person believes Jesus is an Angel; a God, or a Spirit, coming in the form of The Son of Man and the Son of God...isn't it merely belief in Christ as being the Son of God, our Lord and Saviour that causes one to repent of this world and accept his Salvation?

***
Again: Same as above. No UNITY on the CENTRAL DOCTRINE OF CHRIST (Caps are just for emphasis :fadein This Doctrine is Eternally Centered in John's Inspiration, and will determine whom one follow's, an created satan or the Eternal Gospel & Eternal Covenant God/Christ as a fold. But you are way off base! What kind of a Godhead would give up the best that heaven had to offer, if they could have sent an created angel for the sacrifice? One who would be created even without being subject to human pain! Come on, get REAL!
***

Accepting the model of Father, Son and Holy Spirit is accepting the will of God, the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the promise of a Comforter. One need not have to accept anything more than this in order to be saved.

It often disturbes me when I see doctrines of any denomination proclaiming to have the current salvation practices, to give "Christ" permission to baptise in the Holy Spirit. It puts the doctrine first and Christ second. This is what the Pharisees were doing with the Law also. They put the letter of the Law first and God last.

Anyone who is willing to accept Christ as their Lord and Saviour, gives "Christ" permission to baptise in the Holy Spirit. Doctrines are designed to cause doubt in the believer if they have actually confessed the correct Christ or not? Will any term other than the "Son of God" change his ability to save and baptise in the Holy Spirit?[/quote:2f6ac]

***
Enough said already. As stated before, this subject should require thread blockage after a very few posts. It surely is seen with Inspirations Titus 3:9-11's VAIN WARNINGS!
And like stated above, you guys just go on & on & on! And as I say, I see it bordering on 'Blasphemy' of the MOST IMPORTANT subject of the Godheads WORD, it & the Universial CENTERPIECE of CHRIST GOD, the ETERNAL GOSPEL!! Revelation 14:6
---John

 

[lovely]

Kleeshay,

I read your post several times, and I appreciate you taking the time to write it. Thank you.

I do not believe you understand the doctrine of the Holy Trinity based on your first paragraph. In the simplest terms, the Father is not the Son, and the Spirit is not the Father, and the Son is not the Father, and the Son is not the Spirit, etc. The One is three separate, and distinct, but all one God, and with attributes of God. The Trinity encapsulates all that God declares of Christ...by the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. This does not void the Sonship of Christ, but explains it in the fullest, and most honest, terms as humanly possible. You say that this is not true of Trinity, even after I have corrected you. This leaves us with no beginning in our discussion, because the heart of the Scriptures that I have shown you has been ignored, and an unwillingness to hear the truth of my position above your own drawn conclusions, was the theme of your last post. My belief, under these conditions, will remain misunderstood until the Spirit communicates the truth of it to you. This is why John the Baptist is calling to have the thread locked...vain warnings.


Trinitarians believe Christ, the Son, is God, and do not agree when others say He is a created angel.

Your conclusion: If Trinitarians do not accept those who believe Christ is a created angel in to the church, or see them as believers in God, or baptize them, then they are judgemental, and not suffering the little children to come unto Him.

My response: It is not judgemental to have the truth of God given to your heart by the Spirit, and then refuse to deny it in order to accept everyone else's version of the truth as valid...even if they are willing to do this to include me. I do not worship angels. Colossians 2:18-19 This is a worldly concept, and I do not love the world. I reject that Christ is a created angel, and I do worship Him as God because He is God, and I adhere to what I have been taught by the Spirit. God would not allow us to worship His creation, this would be idolatry. This is NOT the Gospel that I have come to the truth of God in, and and I prefer to be thought judgemental rather than deny it, and risk God's wrath. 1 John 4:4-6 Secondly, unity under the umbrella of a lie, is NOT more important than the Truth of God, and the belief in His eternal Salvation, and His eternal Covenant. Love is NOT appearing nice by accepting a lie, instead of having a willingness to be hated in order to share real truth to the lost. No one is preventing anyone from coming to Him, if they are coming by means of an angel. What would be the point of baptizing someone who isn't even truly professing Christ? This is actually leading people astray! I can not deny the Spirit that is in me, and the faith in the Gospel that has have been given to me, in order to promote a false sense of unity, and deceive people into thinking they have come to Him when they haven't. In this case, perhaps, I would be better off with a millstone around my neck, than to stand before Christ and give account for misleading others. I wound not deny that which gives me confidance on that day. 1 John 4:17-19


Trinitarians believe that Jesus is God, the Son. He is both the Son of God, and God. To deny this is to deny the Father, and the Son.

Your Conclusion: To accept that God declares Christ God, and also as the Son, is to void the Sonship altogether.

My response: This is the Gospel according to the the spirit that spins, because it's goal is to deceive people away from the truth of Christ's deity, and to deny them the very salvation that they think believers are denying them by not validating a lie. But, this spirit, just to show how obviously "loving" it is (which is a lie), is willing to accept a belief in the Holy Trinity too! This seems to be a house divided against itself. It will accept Trinity, even though it's considered a lie compared to the false doctrine that it promotes. (Christ, the Son of God, created angel) This is under the guise of love for the sake of false unity, and is not love at all. 1 John 2:20-21 This does not ring of God's truth to me, there is no lie in God's truth, and that is why the only way is through God, the Son, and why God will not accept other ways. John 14

Trinitarians believe that if they deny the deity of Christ, as they have been taught by the Spirit, then they will blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

your conclusion: Trinity keeps it's hold on those who believe it by the threat of blasphemy, they are bound to it.

My response: We should be very careful about what we say/believe about God...the Holy Spirit was blasphemed by the Pharisees who denied Christ as God, the Son...these were the blind guides that bind (Matthew 23:24), these are the very ones who did commit blasphemy, not those who are unwilling to risk committing it. And certainly God is not a blind guide, or trying to bind us, who also has taught us to NOT blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. Matthew 12:31-37 I do not want to do this by the denying the witness of the Spirit within me, nor do I want to do it against the Father, or the Son. I fail to see how this makes me a blind guide, or has even the trait of such. The spirit of the antichrist is the blind guide that would lure man into such evil. It seems to be more twisting of Scripture to lead us down a path that is not of God, and could cost us our souls. We should heed the warnings on this, and not treat it lightly, as the deceiver wants us to. Fear God. 1 John 5:16-21

The Holy Trinity is a doctrine that does not agree that Christ is created, and does not abide in salvation through Him as an angel, but rather as God, the Son, to be worshiped. To accept it in others is to deny the Father and the Son anyway.b]

Your Conclusion: To not accept those who disagree with the Holy Trinity, and receive them as believers, though they believe Christ a created angel, is encouraging persecution of these individuals.

My response: To disagree, is not persecution, but when done truthfully, and lovingly, is good. To exam/reject a belief that denies Christ as God, the Son, is not persecution of those that adhere to it, but is done to keep ourselves from the evil one. 1 John 2:24-27 To be honest about who Christ is when confronted by those who deny His deity, is not mocking them, but loving them and being truthful.

It is my desire to share the Gospel in love, and spread the seed so that others may know Him. To pray for their souls so that they may hear Him. However, I will not lie, and deny God, in order to make myself appear in a better light, or so that others may think I am not a persecutor, or judgmental, or exclusive, or denying salvation to others (which I couldn't even really do.). I do say these things in love, and with the hope that you will come to see things differently. I make no apologies for that at all. Yes, it is the Spirit that has shown me that Jesus is the Son of God, and that Jesus is God. I know that your view is that I have not been brought into the light, and that I am denying the Spirit to adhere to a doctrine of man that I have been taught. I disagree, and even having that believed about me does not pressure me, or persuade me, to deny the Spirit that is in me. Because I believe that John is correct about vain warnings, I will not explain it in detail again. I have no need to post further on this matter for fear of treading too far, and possibly leading you there with me. I see it is not fruitful where you and I are concerned based on your last post to me. I would like to point out the eternal covenant, and eternal Gospel, as John has, as one last reminder. Search the Scripture on these. Revelation 14:6 and Hebrews 13:20

You say that my heart is not before the Lord, but before man's doctrine. I have been accused of this before, and have been guilty of it before, but I assure you that my heart is given over to Him. I just pray that the Lord does keep me before Him, and keeps me from idols so that I may be an overcomer. I have shared the Gospel, and the truth in my heart, as best as I can. You did not answer the Scriptures that I gave, but I ask you to consider them once again for your sake, and for the sake of Christ. Honestly, look over your post, and see that it is more about declaring my doctrine wrong, and lifting up your own, than about searching the Scriptures for the Truth of God. I pray the Lord bless you.

 

[lovely]

mutzrein,

I must admit I am mostly confused by your relationship with God if it is based on the belief that Christ is a created angel, rather than God, the Son. I don't even begin to understand this in my spirit, and am glad of it. I do not know where you stand, and can not know, but it would not bring me confidance in that day to be in your position, I admit. I can not judge the hearts of men, as Christ can, but I do judge this belief as being that of the spirit of the antichrist bent on deception. I think 1 John speaks to this in great detail, and denying the deity of Christ has all the traits of this spirit. It is my hope that you, and others, will search the Scripture. It is my prayer that God will reveal to you the truth of who Christ is. I can not respond to you in good conscience without warning you that this is error. I really do not have anymore to say about this, other than to point to the Scriptures that I have posted, and that John has posted. I will read whatever you post in response, but at this point I think it is wiser for me to let what has been said be, allow the Word of God to stand, and keep you in my prayers, as well as others who believe this doctrine. The Lord bless you today.

Lovely

 

[Klee shay]

Lovely & John The Baptist, could you indulge me with an explanation of the following verses from Isaiah:

Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

2. And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

3. And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

4. Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgement is with the LORD, and my work with my God.

5. And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.

6. And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth."

and...

Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.

Let me confess here and now that I do not worship angels in any way, shape or form. I worship God. The above makes mention of Christ being formed in the womb by God. Does it make Jesus an angel or not - well, I am certain it is not mine to say...but I will say this. I worship God and none "like" him. No matter what the deity of Christ was before, during or after Jesus...it says by the prophet Isaiah and confessed of what will be Jesus that he was called from the womb by God, formed in the womb by God and earlier in Isaiah, there is none like God.

This may or may not be a Trinitarian understanding, but I hope it better outlines where I am coming from.

Once again, I feel I am being judged by a preconceived idea from Trinitarians about non-trinitarians; that our understanding is flawed, unbiblical and of the spirit of antichrist. What say you both about the passages in Isaiah I have quoted above then?

I am interested in continuing this discussion for the glory of God and not for any one persons' vain understanding. Because we all understand in vain. It is only for the glory of God that anything is made manifest, for his purpose and his salvation. What do I mean when I say "his"? I mean God.

 

[mutzrein]

Thankyou again, Lovely for your post.

Well let me allay your confusion - in part at least. My relationship with God is not based on ANY belief. My relationship with God is based on a complete work of His grace. By His grace, he chose me – even before the earth was created. By His grace, he sent His son, the lamb of God, to make a way for me to know Him. By His grace and in His love He sent Jesus the Passover lamb, so that the angel of death could not come near me and life could be granted. By His grace, and because of the obedience of Christ in all things unto the Father – even unto the cross, I have been redeemed from sin and death. By His grace when Jesus returned to the Father, He sent the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of life so that those whom He had called by name could be born of His Spirit – and be called sons and daughters of the living God. And by His grace a point came in my life when I knew that what had taken place in my life could only ever be because of His grace.

And I will tell you this candidly Lovely. You see, my walk with the Lord is not based on a creed or doctrine. I’m not a son of God BECAUSE of what I believe. I believe what I believe BECAUSE I am a son of God. And that is BECAUSE of God’s grace. In fact, when I was born of God it was those in the ‘church’ who started to tell me of the things I needed to believe, and for a while, as a child hungering and thirsting after God, I swallowed things that were not good because I was being ‘spoon fed’ by people who I thought knew God. But as I grew in the Lord, as I matured through the circumstances of my life, God placed within me such a yearning for Him and what I can only describe as a passion for truth. Now as I have said to you in another thread I make no claims of knowing all the truth but what I do know is what God himself has shown me.

I know what it is to seek the Lord. I know what it is to ask, to seek to knock. And I know what it is to see and hear and know His response, for He has shown me in tears, He has shown me in joy, He has shown me in trials, in heartache and sorrow. I also know what it is to cry out in anguish, ‘my God, my God, why have you forsaken me.’ And then to say, ‘nevertheless, not my will but yours be done.’ You know at that time although I had been born again for more than two decades, the meaning of being obedient to the Father and the depth of relationship with Him up till that point, paled in comparison to what has unfolded since.

I know the faithfulness of an almighty God. Lovely, I yearn for THE truth. I yearn for God. I yearn to see the righteousness of God made manifest to us and in us, His children, but this can only come about as we abide in the vine (which is Christ).

Now there are some who may read this and say, “so what – it’s just a bunch of words.†But I tell you this, no-one born of the Spirit of God can deny my walk with God for no-one knows the heart of man except God himself.

There are many who claim to know THE truth who decry those whom they think are without it.
There are many who claim to know Christ and yet teach a gospel not of faith.
There are many who claim to have the Holy Spirit but their fruit shows otherwise.
And there are many who claim to be righteous by what they do and the doctrines they adhere to, but I know my righteousness is in Christ, my precious redeemer, the son of the Living God.

And Lovely, where have I said that Jesus is a created angel?

 

[lovely]

mutzrein,

mutzrein wrote:

And I will tell you this candidly Lovely. You see, my walk with the Lord is not based on a creed or doctrine. I’m not a son of God BECAUSE of what I believe. I believe what I believe BECAUSE I am a son of God. And that is BECAUSE of God’s grace.

I do see this about you, and I agree with this, mutzrein.

mutzrein wrote:

But as I grew in the Lord, as I matured through the circumstances of my life, God placed within me such a yearning for Him and what I can only describe as a passion for truth. Now as I have said to you in another thread I make no claims of knowing all the truth but what I do know is what God himself has shown me.

I am in the beginning stages of understanding this in my own life too. I know this yearning, and you have shared your passion about this with me before.

mutzrein wrote:

I know what it is to seek the Lord. I know what it is to ask, to seek to knock. And I know what it is to see and hear and know His response, for He has shown me in tears, He has shown me in joy, He has shown me in trials, in heartache and sorrow. I also know what it is to cry out in anguish, ‘my God, my God, why have you forsaken me.’ And then to say, ‘nevertheless, not my will but yours be done.’ You know at that time although I had been born again for more than two decades, the meaning of being obedient to the Father and the depth of relationship with Him up till that point, paled in comparison to what has unfolded since.[/quote:31df5]

I know all of this in my own life too, and the last bolded section has been new in my life in the past 4 years or so. I am learning what it means to be given over to Him completely.


mutzrein wrote:
[quote:31df5]I know the faithfulness of an almighty God. Lovely, I yearn for THE truth. I yearn for God. I yearn to see the righteousness of God made manifest to us and in us, His children, but this can only come about as we abide in the vine (which is Christ).

Yes, I yearn for the truth too, and it is my heart's desire to abide in Him.


mutzrein wrote:

Now there are some who may read this and say, “so what – it’s just a bunch of words.†But I tell you this, no-one born of the Spirit of God can deny my walk with God for no-one knows the heart of man except God himself.

I do not think it is just a bunch of words at all, and I thank you for sharing your heart so openly with me. I agree with you completely.

mutzrein wrote:

There are many who claim to know THE truth who decry those whom they think are without it.
There are many who claim to know Christ and yet teach a gospel not of faith.
There are many who claim to have the Holy Spirit but their fruit shows otherwise.
And there are many who claim to be righteous by what they do and the doctrines they adhere to, but I know my righteousness is in Christ, my precious redeemer, the son of the Living God.

I agree that this is true as well. As the Spirit shows me God's truth, He also gives me the grace to lay down what I once thought was true. This is an account of my growth. However, mutzrein, I can not let go of things that the Spirit has shown me. I am not saying I am very knowledgable about God at all...I feel as if I am only getting to know Him, really, but I know to let Him change me, and to stay where I am until He leads me in another direction. If I posess a truth in my spirit, then I should adhere to it unless the spirit has shown me otherwise. Do you not agree with this? When we were discussing Romans in the other thread, the spirit changed my heart on that matter...do you remember?

mutzrein wrote:

And Lovely, where have I said that Jesus is a created angel?

[/quote:31df5][/quote:31df5]

Honestly, I was not clear about whether you thought Jesus was a created angel. That is why I worded my post as I did. Just in case, I did not want to walk away without saying that I thought is was error. I think I understand you well enough now, that you would perhaps leave it open-ended if you could not say who Chirst is other than what the Spirit has shown you. Is this correct? I will leave it here for now.

The Lord bless you.

 

[lovely]

Dear Kleeshay,

Thank you for the Scriptures, I am going to read them. I appreciate you being longsuffering, and once again trying to expain your position. The main theme of this post is not to continue the discussion, however. It is to apologize to you because you feel that I have judged you personally, and I do not want to leave you without saying I am sincerely sorry that I have made you feel that way. I do not judge you. I do not know you, nor can I see your heart as God does, and I have no clue where you are in your walk with Him. I admit I do not fully understand what it is you believe, but I do not agree with what you have said so far. It is not in me to deny what is in my spirit, and I would rather be thought ill of than do that. It was my hope to help you understand that. I appreciate your desire to continue right now, but I must take a rest from this discussion for a bit. As I said, I will study those verses. I pray that the Lord bless you.

Lovely

 

[Klee shay]

Dear Kleeshay,

Thank you for the Scriptures, I am going to read them. I appreciate you being longsuffering, and once again trying to expain your position. The main theme of this post is not to continue the discussion, however. It is to apologize to you because you feel that I have judged you personally, and I do not want to leave you without saying I am sincerely sorry that I have made you feel that way. I do not judge you. I do not know you, nor can I see your heart as God does, and I have no clue where you are in your walk with Him. I admit I do not fully understand what it is you believe, but I do not agree with what you have said so far. It is not in me to deny what is in my spirit, and I would rather be thought ill of than do that. It was my hope to help you understand that. I appreciate your desire to continue right now, but I must take a rest from this discussion for a bit. As I said, I will study those verses. I pray that the Lord bless you.

Lovely

May I also say that I appreciate your longsuffering and grace as well. I truly have taken on board what you have shared for the reasons of God's glory. While it has caused me to stress all the more recently, I also see it as a blessing for it has given me just cause to pray. Not that either of us should be right or wrong, but that I may know the Lord's truth in his fullness.

I found some scriptures in Peter recently which gave me much comfort in longsuffering:

20. Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21. For the prophecy came not in the old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The reason why I put away my understanding of Trinity in the first place, was because it was privately interpreted for me and taught to me as correct. Whether I return to that understanding or not is entirely up to God's grace and will.

But I applaud you for not accepting my understanding on face-value though. For I would wish that you do not follow me blindly as I did my understanding of Trinity. I would wish - as you do - to follow God as his plan for your life unravels before you. May he be with you in all things.

It has been a pleasure fellowshipping with you lovely. :D

 

[mutzrein]

Lovely - just want to say I've seen your post/s but haven't had time to respond. I will when I can.

The Lord bless you.

 

[John the Baptist]

Dear Kleeshay,

Thank you for the Scriptures, I am going to read them. I appreciate you being longsuffering, and once again trying to expain your position. The main theme of this post is not to continue the discussion, however. It is to apologize to you because you feel that I have judged you personally, and I do not want to leave you without saying I am sincerely sorry that I have made you feel that way. I do not judge you. I do not know you, nor can I see your heart as God does, and I have no clue where you are in your walk with Him. I admit I do not fully understand what it is you believe, but I do not agree with what you have said so far. It is not in me to deny what is in my spirit, and I would rather be thought ill of than do that. It was my hope to help you understand that. I appreciate your desire to continue right now, but I must take a rest from this discussion for a bit. As I said, I will study those verses. I pray that the Lord bless you.

Lovely

****
Hi, your 'post' does seem very Christ like? :fadein:

Yet, your 'suggested' questions surely are begging an 'honest' answer if one is up front and 'Open as sunlight', huh? 1 Peter 3:15

If Christ is not God, then who and what is He? Or what was He before He came to earth as the 'Lamb' of God? How many short answers are needed?

As I remember reading in Genesis 4:4-8 in the K.J., (and before) the devil was around with deception, right from the start with what was a required obedient offering. So we need to know what Christ is required to be in His Everlasting Gospel plan. Revelation 14:6

Anyway, be careful when your questions are not answered!

---John

 

[lovely]

Thanks, John. Received.