The spirit of antichrist

[Jay T]

I have seen a lot of disagreement in regards to the meanings of basic scripture of late, and wanted to discuss one such scriputure which "defines" whether we follow the spirit of God or are indeed deceived by the spirit of antichrist.

If we do not follow the criteria set out by scripture, then are we judging righteous judgement when we accuse others of following the spirit of antichrist?

Firstly 1 John 4:2-3

"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."

Would this not merely indicate those who do not believe Jesus was Christ (prophesied of) come in the flesh -

It means Jesus came to overcome sin, with the same sinful nature we have....showing it can be done, by totally relying upon God to grant us the power to overcome any and all sinful temptations thru the power of grace.

 

[thessalonian]

with the same sinful nature we have....

Jesus did not have a sinful nature. That is incorrect. His nature was as that of Adam and Eve in the garden before the fall. He did undergo temptation just as Adam and Eve did before the fall. But did not sin. Thus no sin nature.

 

[lovely]

I thought Hebrews 1:1-14 applied when speaking about Christ coming in the flesh, and what that truly means, and who He truly is. John 1:14 also testifies of Christ coming in the flesh.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

and then we have these verses....

John 1:1-5 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.


3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.


The spirit of the antichrist will attack His deity, and try to make Him a liar, as well as God. They accept neither one truly, but only in word. John exposes this in 1 John, and gives us many characteristics of this spirit.

God says that Jesus is God, and Jesus says that of Himself, and The Holy Spirit conveys it to the believer very clearly in his spirit. The whole point is that God came in the flesh. It is not that the created flesh came in the flesh. We must believe this if we are in Him, if we do not is the spirit of the antichrist.

1 John 4:2-3 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Jesus Told Nicodemus that only He had been in Heaven John 3:13
The Jews were very angry with Jesus for making himself equal with God, and sought to kill him all the more for it. John 5:17-18 John tells us He is the Word, and the first chapter is very clear about who Christ is. The Spirit of the antichrist denies this, because those who listen to it do not hear God. We are not to be deceived in this manner because the truth is in us.

Hebrews 1:1-14
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

This is clear, and John tells us that we do not need teaching on this matter. We have the Truth, and no lie is in the Truth.

1 John 2:20-27 20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

The Lord bless you all.

 

[John the Baptist]

I thought Hebrews 1:1-14 applied when speaking about Christ coming in the flesh, and what that truly means, and who He truly is. John 1:14 also testifies of Christ coming in the flesh.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

and then we have these verses....

John 1:1-5 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.


3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.


The spirit of the antichrist will attack His deity, and try to make Him a liar, as well as God. They accept neither one truly, but only in word. John exposes this in 1 John, and gives us many characteristics of this spirit.

God says that Jesus is God, and Jesus says that of Himself, and The Holy Spirit conveys it to the believer very clearly in his spirit. The whole point is that God came in the flesh. It is not that the created flesh came in the flesh. We must believe this if we are in Him, if we do not is the spirit of the antichrist.

1 John 4:2-3 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Jesus Told Nicodemus that only He had been in Heaven John 3:13
The Jews were very angry with Jesus for making himself equal with God, and sought to kill him all the more for it. John 5:17-18 John tells us He is the Word, and the first chapter is very clear about who Christ is. The Spirit of the antichrist denies this, because those who listen to it do not hear God. We are not to be deceived in this manner because the truth is in us.

Hebrews 1:1-14
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

This is clear, and John tells us that we do not need teaching on this matter. We have the Truth, and no lie is in the Truth.

1 John 2:20-27 20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

The Lord bless you all.

******
Very good post & very clear to boot! :wink: Thanks.
---John

 

[mutzrein]

May I remind some here that:

Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall. Proverbs 16:18 (LITV)

Thankyou for the reminder Vic.

 

[John the Baptist]

May I remind some here that:

Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall. Proverbs 16:18 (LITV)

Thankyou for the reminder Vic.

*******
Vic, what does the Word VAIN mean to you. As in the K.J. on Titus 3:8-11? (pride & vain are closely related to my theology :wink: )

And that question is not any reflection on this thread per/say. But as I see it, there are threads on this site which any 'sincere' Christian person can spot another person or all person's posts that are as Paul stated by Inspiration, Vain & heretick'ical! (new word :wink Some are even against this sites posted commitment of the Godhead.

And yes, if they were not posted, we might not see that the person whoever they might be, (?) that are behind the 'posts' are surely against/Christ!

---John

 

[Vic C.]

May I remind some here that:

Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall. Proverbs 16:18 (LITV)

Thankyou for the reminder Vic.

*******
Vic, what does the Word VAIN mean to you. As in the K.J. on Titus 3:8-11? (pride & vain are closely related to my theology :wink: )

And that question is not any reflection on this thread per/say. But as I see it, there are threads on this site which any 'sincere' Christian person can spot another person or all person's posts that are as Paul stated by Inspiration, Vain & heretick'ical! (new word :wink Some are even against this sites posted commitment of the Godhead.

And yes, if they were not posted, we might not see that the person whoever they might be, (?) that are behind the 'posts' are surely against/Christ!

---John

Theology or no theology, pride and vanity are akin to each another.

I honestly don't understand what you are saying. I think Proverbs 16:18 stands on it's own, in or out of it's context.

 

[Imagican]

I haven't witnessed ANY that are 'against' the Godhead. I have, on numerous occasions pointed out that Godhead IS Biblical. It is 'trinity' that most oppose as being 'man-made'. The Godhead IS the NAME given to the relationship between Christ and the Father.

 

[John the Baptist]

Theology or no theology, pride and vanity are akin to each another.

I honestly don't understand what you are saying. I think Proverbs 16:18 stands on it's own, in or out of it's context.
_________________

I am agreeing that pride is behind more soul's being eternally lost than anything else. It is seen in the 'love' of self first, then wealth, + all else! And the akin Word for it is anyone's VAIN Titus 3:9-11 know it all of continuing on & on, as Inspiration tells us there in that verse. The TRUTH is seen in its originaq start in Ezekiel 28:17 & Isaiah 14:12-14. Yet, take note of the 'I's seen there in the plural.

OK: young'in, do you understand what I was saying now? :

Just one more thought: In the bathroom, my wife & myself have a mirror over the sink. There is a cabinet there that holds the sinks & faucets, what do we call the cabinet?

Webster defines Vanity as such: 1. something that is vain. empty, or useless, (DEAD per thread!) 2. the quality or fact of being useless or futile. 3. undue pride in oneself or ones's appearance, CONCEIT (their caps) 3. a small case for cosmetics compact.

--John

 

[Klee shay]

I thought Hebrews 1:1-14 applied when speaking about Christ coming in the flesh, and what that truly means, and who He truly is. John 1:14 also testifies of Christ coming in the flesh.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

and then we have these verses....

John 1:1-5 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.


3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.


The spirit of the antichrist will attack His deity, and try to make Him a liar, as well as God. They accept neither one truly, but only in word. John exposes this in 1 John, and gives us many characteristics of this spirit.

God says that Jesus is God, and Jesus says that of Himself, and The Holy Spirit conveys it to the believer very clearly in his spirit. The whole point is that God came in the flesh. It is not that the created flesh came in the flesh. We must believe this if we are in Him, if we do not is the spirit of the antichrist.

1 John 4:2-3 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Jesus Told Nicodemus that only He had been in Heaven John 3:13
The Jews were very angry with Jesus for making himself equal with God, and sought to kill him all the more for it. John 5:17-18 John tells us He is the Word, and the first chapter is very clear about who Christ is. The Spirit of the antichrist denies this, because those who listen to it do not hear God. We are not to be deceived in this manner because the truth is in us.

Hebrews 1:1-14
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

This is clear, and John tells us that we do not need teaching on this matter. We have the Truth, and no lie is in the Truth.

1 John 2:20-27 20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

The Lord bless you all.

Thank you for your post lovely, I enjoyed reading it. I actually agree with all the scriptural references you have posted, but I still don't see them declaring Jesus as God devoiding the whole sonship that Jesus, God, John the Baptist and Peter all testified of.

Even in Hebrews 1:9 I see a clear distinction between Father and Son. "Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."

Thy God annointed the one He called God - Jesus. For even the Son's on earth assume the names of their fathers. Why must Jesus then assume the identity of God, simply because God acknowledged his Son as part of him?

While the Holy Spirit will most certainly testify that Jesus was part of God and God was part of his Son - don't get it confused with the man-made theology that Jesus IS God. For even the Son was begotten as scripture testifies of. If you read further in John chapter 1 you'll see John the Baptist testifying of this also. He declared Jesus the Son of God but also the Lamb of God.

The Son of God and the Lamb of God. Meaning they came from God. I would hazzard a guess that nearly all Christians understand and accept this. Where we so often disagree most of the time is how we understand God through scripture and spirit. This is the whole premise for my thread in fact. It seems relatively easy to interpret a scripture and believe one's spirit has given them the correct understanding, only to label everyone else who disagrees with that interpretation, of the spirit of antichrist.

Yet scripture shows us that those who accept Jesus was Christ come in the flesh ARE of God. A trinitarian will "add" if you don't accept Jesus IS God then you must be led by the spirit of antichrist.

I agree with your scriptural references but I simply do not conclude that it says Jesus is God. Rather that Jesus the Son, exists in a relationship with God the Father.

 

[John the Baptist]

Well for me at least, with just the documented immortality that only God has, as the Godhead state, an Everlasting Gospel & an Everlasting Covenant could not be with/out an Christ/God. There is no way that 'i' could be looking further for Truth with this anti/Christ start! I would be 'presumptiously' going upon the devil's forbidden ground! See Psalm 19:13 for where that leads! THE GREAT TRANSGRESSION with my eyes wide open!!

Then when 'some posts' create an 'angel Son of God' who He Himself has documented the raising of the dead in Luke, pluss the healing of the blind in John, and His claim of the Godhead, (Romans 1:20, Colossians 2:9, Hebrews 1:8) there is NO WAY for [me] to see this other than TOTAL HERESY! And the RED FLAG of WARNING seen 2 John 1:7-11

---John

 

[lovely]

Dear Kleeshay,

Hello. Thank you for your response. I wasn't really expecting to respond again, but I know I must. It will be difficult for me to write this post, actually. I want to clarify one of your conclusions, explain my belief, and address what I think was the point of your thread to begin with.

Clarification

While I was reading your post, it occurred to me that you said, devoiding that Christ is the Son. I just want to clarify that I am not devoiding Christ's Sonship at all. I would never take away from Him any aspect of who He declares Himself to be. I don't remember reading about someone saying that in the thread, but it is not something that I am in agreement with by any means.


Explanation

I do believe that the Word was sent by the Father, conceived by the Spirit, and born of a virgin, Mary, and became flesh. Immanuel, God with us. So, I believe that Christ is the Word. John tells us he is the Word. Christ is part of the three that are One. "Behold the Lamb of God!" John the Baptist declared this. I agree that Christ is the Lamb, absolutely, and the Son. I also agree with John, that He is the Word become flesh, "sent" (from where? From Heaven) by the Father. The Scripture supports that Jesus was from Heaven, he says this to Nicodemus. Jesus declares more than once that He is the I AM...the Pharisees understood this when they wanted to kill Him for making Himself equal with God. His enemy knows who He is, and is intent on deceiving man. Scripture expounds on the fact that Christ is God, but I have never seen a verse that says He isn't. The verses that declare Him to be the Son, or the Lamb, or a great many other names, do not cancel those that declare Him to be the Word, and God. To accept Christ is not God, means to ignore the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

I think that the Scriptures I quoted support that He is the Son of God, yet God, not voiding His Sonship at all, but truly explaining how the Word became flesh, the Son, the Lamb of God. I accept, by faith, that Scripture is true, even if there are things that I can not communicate fully to others.

I will be honest, I am not sure what you mean when you say that God declared His Son God, but that there is a distinction. I agree that God declared His Son God, and yet there is a distinction, but that distinction doesn't require that God be a liar. I agree that the three are separate and distinct, yet One God, as God declares. I will not give you an analogy, because I believe they fall short.

Scripture teaches that Christ is God, and man. He was born of God, and woman. I can not just say He is man, and not God, and ignore many verses that teach otherwise to make it fit better with my own understanding, or broaden the way to include those who are denying who Christ truly is. That's not even in my power to do. Christ's deity matters, and I believe it is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit to say/believe otherwise. We are told to not lean on our own understanding, and to not abandon the Truth we have been taught, the Gospel. This is my conclusion, of course, and I can not draw the conclusions of others. I don't even want to, because I believe that is up to the Spirit alone to communicate.

My answer to what I believe may be the point of your thread

I write strongly about this matter, because it is so important. Please accept this, that it is in love that I say these things, and not because my goal is to exclude, be right, or hurt others who do not believe as I do. Two things are going on, and this is the crux of your thread, perhaps. 1. On this point believers can not bend, and if they do, they deny the Spirit that is in them, and the Gospel 2. To support those who do deny Christ as God, is to deny Christ as God themselves. This goes against what the Spirit has shown them to be true. To deny Christ as God, is to deny the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, as John says, and Hebrews supports. If someone says to me that Christ is not God, then It is the same as saying that they do not believe God, or in God. If I support it, then I blaspheme the Holy Spirit. This is how important it is, and this is why those who believe in the three as One can not accept one of the three not being God. This is the warning that John was giving to us. So, it would seem that I have no other alternative but to consider the spirit of the antichrist those who oppose this teaching. I know this is direct, and perhaps will upset many, but I must go against my flesh and not white wash it over. It is too important, and to gloss it over is to not be loving, or honest. I pray that the Lord blesses you today.

 

[lovely]

John,

Thank you for your encouragement in this thread, and for what I believe was a warning. I will take it as such, anyway. May the Lord bless you.

Tina

 

[Klee shay]

Well for me at least, with just the documented immortality that only God has, as the Godhead state, an Everlasting Gospel & an Everlasting Covenant could not be with/out an Christ/God. There is no way that 'i' could be looking further for Truth with this anti/Christ start! I would be 'presumptiously' going upon the devil's forbidden ground! See Psalm 19:13 for where that leads! THE GREAT TRANSGRESSION with my eyes wide open!!

Then when 'some posts' create an 'angel Son of God' who He Himself has documented the raising of the dead in Luke, pluss the healing of the blind in John, and His claim of the Godhead, (Romans 1:20, Colossians 2:9, Hebrews 1:8) there is NO WAY for [me] to see this other than TOTAL HERESY! And the RED FLAG of WARNING seen 2 John 1:7-11

---John

John I can see you feel strongly about this, but when I come to God it is through Christ. Although I question the doctrine of trinity it doesn't mean I question the model of Father, Son and Holy Spirit as Jesus declared.

 

[John the Baptist]

[quote="John the Baptist":f692d]Well for me at least, with just the documented immortality that only God has, as the Godhead state, an Everlasting Gospel & an Everlasting Covenant could not be with/out an Christ/God. There is no way that 'i' could be looking further for Truth with this anti/Christ start! I would be 'presumptiously' going upon the devil's forbidden ground! See Psalm 19:13 for where that leads! THE GREAT TRANSGRESSION with my eyes wide open!!

Then when 'some posts' create an 'angel Son of God' who He Himself has documented the raising of the dead in Luke, pluss the healing of the blind in John, and His claim of the Godhead, (Romans 1:20, Colossians 2:9, Hebrews 1:8) there is NO WAY for [me] to see this other than TOTAL HERESY! And the RED FLAG of WARNING seen 2 John 1:7-11

---John

John I can see you feel strongly about this, but when I come to God it is through Christ. Although I question the doctrine of trinity it doesn't mean I question the model of Father, Son and Holy Spirit as Jesus declared.[/quote:f692d]

**
Nothing personal from this end. Romans 8:14 is slow moving for most of us. But yes, I do see this as a Required Doctrine of God/Christ!

Anyway: If it were a person on person thing between me and you? (which it is not) Matthew 28:20 would need to be verified in acceptance before I would baptise anyone.

---John

 

[Klee shay]

lovely, I will come back to your post when I have more time to reply appropriately. Know that I am not perseucting you for your beliefs when I question the doctrine of trinity's interpretaton of antichrist however. I actually hold your desire to seek God separate to the understanding you currently have. This is how I perceive my faith as well. My desire to seek God is separate to what I currently understand too. For it is in his grace that we come to know anything.

Let me just acknowledge however that I appreciate we are exchanging in a polite, intelligent and respectful manner. :D

God bless you.

 

[Klee shay]

Sorry for the delay in getting back to your post, lovely, but I'm refreshed now and have the time to comment properly.

While I was reading your post, it occurred to me that you said, devoiding that Christ is the Son. I just want to clarify that I am not devoiding Christ's Sonship at all. I would never take away from Him any aspect of who He declares Himself to be. I don't remember reading about someone saying that in the thread, but it is not something that I am in agreement with by any means.

I accept this is your understanding of retaining his sonship. This is not what the doctrine of Trinity establishes however. For if Jesus is indeed God then he naturally has no sonship "relationship" to God anymore. How then is the son to be honoured according to God's will? Do we honour Christ as God? Absolutely! But we don't then teach he is God in any other capacity than a son. The doctrine of Trinity establishes that we can however.

I do believe that the Word was sent by the Father, conceived by the Spirit, and born of a virgin, Mary, and became flesh. Immanuel, God with us. So, I believe that Christ is the Word. John tells us he is the Word. Christ is part of the three that are One. "Behold the Lamb of God!" John the Baptist declared this. I agree that Christ is the Lamb, absolutely, and the Son. I also agree with John, that He is the Word become flesh, "sent" (from where? From Heaven) by the Father. The Scripture supports that Jesus was from Heaven, he says this to Nicodemus. Jesus declares more than once that He is the I AM...the Pharisees understood this when they wanted to kill Him for making Himself equal with God. His enemy knows who He is, and is intent on deceiving man. Scripture expounds on the fact that Christ is God, but I have never seen a verse that says He isn't. The verses that declare Him to be the Son, or the Lamb, or a great many other names, do not cancel those that declare Him to be the Word, and God. To accept Christ is not God, means to ignore the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

And herein lies the deception of the doctrine of Trinity. Understand the Trinity as declared by Jesus is not a dception but rather the doctrine we are supposedly annointed with in order to be saved accordingly, is.

This is also why I disagree with John The Baptist (the forum member) who said he couldn't baptise anyone who did not agree with Matthew 28:20. Jesus instructed that we were not to deny the children to come to him. Denying to baptise someone based on the doctrine of Trinity is denying one from coming to Christ. And what were the consequences Jesus said for those who would deny the children from the kingdom of heaven?

Again I state, this is the deception of the doctrine of Trinity. It supposedly makes us right with God if we follow it, giving us freedom then to deny those who reject the doctrine of Trinity - labelling them of the spirit of antichrist.

If a non-trinitarian denies the doctrine of Trinity while CONFESSING Jesus is the Son of God, God is the Father and the Holy Spirit is the Comforter promised after Christ's resurrection - it is a blind guide who lables them of the spirit of antichrist. For this model is exactly what Jesus confessed in the scriptures. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It is the doctrine of Trinity which turns this model into one God and encourages fellow Trinitarians to persecute those as being under the spirit of antichrist, if they do not believe the same.

I think that the Scriptures I quoted support that He is the Son of God, yet God, not voiding His Sonship at all, but truly explaining how the Word became flesh, the Son, the Lamb of God. I accept, by faith, that Scripture is true, even if there are things that I can not communicate fully to others.

I certainly don't question your faith. What I am trying to highlight however, is the incessant labelling of others who also desire to be faithful to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit but not through the doctrine of Trinity. Simply because they confess Jesus is the Son of God come in the flesh but NOT God himself - they are called of the spirit of antichrist, or their faith/salvation is scrutinised and mocked. I am not saying you have done this personally lovely, but it happens via those who also believe in the doctrine of Trinity, believing (as the doctrine itself supports) that those who reject the doctrine must be of the spirit of antichrist.

I will be honest, I am not sure what you mean when you say that God declared His Son God, but that there is a distinction. I agree that God declared His Son God, and yet there is a distinction, but that distinction doesn't require that God be a liar. I agree that the three are separate and distinct, yet One God, as God declares. I will not give you an analogy, because I believe they fall short.

I do not understand why you feel it makes God a liar when one confesses Jesus was the Son of God and by being the son of God - abiding in his will - he is one with God. This is what Jesus confessed as truth. At no point did Jesus teach, "it is not enough to call me the Son of God, for you must worship me *as* God." And yet this is what the doctrine of Trinity uses to judge those who do not accept Jesus is God.

Scripture teaches that Christ is God, and man. He was born of God, and woman. I can not just say He is man, and not God, and ignore many verses that teach otherwise to make it fit better with my own understanding, or broaden the way to include those who are denying who Christ truly is. That's not even in my power to do. Christ's deity matters, and I believe it is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit to say/believe otherwise. We are told to not lean on our own understanding, and to not abandon the Truth we have been taught, the Gospel. This is my conclusion, of course, and I can not draw the conclusions of others. I don't even want to, because I believe that is up to the Spirit alone to communicate.

I actually agree with everything you just said but I do not view Jesus as God. To me Christ's deity is as the Son of God - how he professed it, how God professed it and what the Holy Spirit testifies also. How is it blaspheming the Holy Spirit when one confesses Jesus was the Son of God?

The alleged blasphemy is a deception attached to the doctrine of Trinity; or else how will the doctrine hold it's power over the believer? The doctrine causes us to judge others as being of the spirit of antichrist, and the doctrine also causes us to deny other's their salvation, Christ so freely offered in "belief".

How is one lost when one confesses Jesus is the Son of God and part of God but was not God himself? I believe Jesus when he prayed to his Father, "not by my will but thy will be done." There was a distinction we were taught to recognise through the relationship Jesus had with his Father.

My answer to what I believe may be the point of your thread

I write strongly about this matter, because it is so important. Please accept this, that it is in love that I say these things, and not because my goal is to exclude, be right, or hurt others who do not believe as I do.

I accept everything you say is in love. I do not judge you by your understanding in Christ for your heart will be your own judge - as will mine.

Two things are going on, and this is the crux of your thread, perhaps. 1. On this point believers can not bend, and if they do, they deny the Spirit that is in them, and the Gospel

Is it the Spirit which confesses the donctrine of Trinity is true, or is it the doctrine which teaches we must deny Christ in others if those others do not believe the doctrine is true?

2. To support those who do deny Christ as God, is to deny Christ as God themselves. This goes against what the Spirit has shown them to be true. To deny Christ as God, is to deny the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, as John says, and Hebrews supports.

Again, is it the Spirit which has shown the doctrine of Trinity is true, or is it the doctrine which encourages believers that it must be of the Spirit? After all, where do Trinitarians traditionally return to in order to support the doctrine of Trinity? The scriptures. But do they place their own hearts before Jesus to be brought into the light; to see if the Spirit could be confessing anything they are not willing to see in themselves?

No, for the doctrine of Trinity teaches we are right and those who question the doctrine are of the spirit of antichrist.

If someone says to me that Christ is not God, then It is the same as saying that they do not believe God, or in God.

This is what the doctrine of Trinity teaches you to think. Yet if you were to place your heart before Christ every time someone said Jesus was not God himself but was still the SON OF God - to be honoured as God; you would not find it so easy to judge them as being under the spirit of antichrist.

Do you know why? Because the Spirit of God does not fear the spirit of antichrist; and it is not so quick to judge who is in Christ and who is not, via a doctrine created by man. The true doctrine of God can only be found through Christ, day to day, week by week, prayer by prayer.

"Forgive them Father for they know not what they do," was a statement made by Jesus during his crucifiction. It is an acknowledgement that even whilst in the presence of God, we can be made blind as fools. Did God forgive them nonetheless and offer salvation through the sacrifice of his Son? Yes, of couse he did and this is why we're having this discussion. :wink:

The antichrist is in this world as we all very well know; but I'm fairly certain it is in more believers than any one doctrine can shield. For even Jesus said to Peter, "Get thee behind me Satan, for thou savourest not the things of God." Doctrines do not shield believers from being under the influence of the antichrist.

If I support it, then I blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

According to the doctrine of Trinity you do, but how do you blaspheme the Holy Spirit when you have accepted Christ as your Lord and Saviour and confess he is to others?

This is how important it is, and this is why those who believe in the three as One can not accept one of the three not being God. This is the warning that John was giving to us.

The doctrine of Trinity implies John was giving a warning against denying the doctrine of Trinity. To judge righteous judgement through Christ however, is merely to confesses Jesus is the Son of God come in the flesh. Trinity adds that we must also confess Jesus is God which is not contained in the scriptures. Jesus is the SON of God and it is on this premise we are saved.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. We honour God's sacrifice by honouring his Son's sacrifice.

So, it would seem that I have no other alternative but to consider the spirit of the antichrist those who oppose this teaching. I know this is direct, and perhaps will upset many, but I must go against my flesh and not white wash it over. It is too important, and to gloss it over is to not be loving, or honest. I pray that the Lord blesses you today.

Remember the teachings from a child's point of view - how Jesus taught we are to enter into the kingdom of heaven. A child first comes to know Jesus as a man who was also the Son of God. A child first comes to know God as being the Father of Jesus - preceeding and overseeing all things. And a child first comes to know the Holy Spirit as what came after Jesus went back to his Father.

If we are to enter into the kingdom of heaven as children, how is this childish understanding of Father, Son and Holy Spirit damnation? The doctrine of Trinity will tell you that it is though. I choose to believe the children of God are unhindered from coming to Christ through this simple understanding alone.

"Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein." LUKE 18:17

 

[John the Baptist]

John here: (John the poster upper! :wink

This 'bird's' Revelation 18:2 'post' misses my point in the remark below. What I had said in bottom line, is that the candidate for baptism was still seen in walking [OPENLY] from the Eternal DOCTRINE of Christ, as in Revelation 14:6's Gospel & the Eternal Doctrine of His Covenant of Hebrews 13:20.
In my plain Words, and bottom line, he is not a Christian yet ready for Matthews 28:20's step! Coming to Christ is not the question, it is taking the step of accepting Him that is the question! And it does not take any insight to see that those who creat a angel Christ, do not!

And teaching Christ as an created angel, an openly documented lie on top of all? : Rubbish in the simplist terms!! (2 Peter 2:21-22!!) I have a video from some of these birds from several years back that claimed that we taught that the Godhead had three heads! They are sick with their 2 Corinthians 4:2 stuff!!

Quote: "And herein lies the deception of the doctrine of Trinity. Understand the Trinity as declared by Jesus is not a deception but rather the doctrine we are supposedly anointed with in order to be saved accordingly, is.

This is also why I disagree with John The Baptist (the forum member) who said he couldn't baptise anyone who did not agree with Matthew 28:20. Jesus instructed that we were not to deny the children to come to him. Denying to baptise someone based on the doctrine of Trinity is denying one from coming to Christ. And what were the consequences Jesus said for those who would deny the children from the kingdom of heaven?"

 

[mutzrein]

Lovely & Klee shay

I enjoy reading your posts because of the spirit in which they are written. Thankyou - you have both blessed me.

Lovely, I also do not hold to the doctrine of the Trinity and would like to ask about a specific point you made. It is one which Klee shay has also touched on.

lovely wrote: If I support it, then I blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

If this is what you believe, and since scripture relating to 'blasphemy of the Holy Spirit' is often interpreted as the 'unforgiveable sin', are you saying that Klee shay and myself, for example, are lost because we cannot abide by this doctrine?

Now I am not saying that you are making this judgement, but if you can just let me know how you see our (and others of like mind and spirit) relationship with the Lord from this perspective, I'd like to reason with you on it.

Thankyou & the Lord bless you.

 

[Klee shay]

John here: (John the poster upper! :wink

This 'bird's' Revelation 18:2 'post' misses my point in the remark below. What I had said in bottom line, is that the candidate for baptism was still seen in walking [OPENLY] from the Eternal DOCTRINE of Christ, as in Revelation 14:6's Gospel & the Eternal Doctrine of His Covenant of Hebrews 13:20.
In my plain Words, and bottom line, he is not a Christian yet ready for Matthews 28:20's step! Coming to Christ is not the question, it is taking the step of accepting Him that is the question! And it does not take any insight to see that those who creat a angel Christ, do not!

And teaching Christ as an created angel, an openly documented lie on top of all? : Rubbish in the simplist terms!! (2 Peter 2:21-22!!) I have a video from some of these birds from several years back that claimed that we taught that the Godhead had three heads! They are sick with their 2 Corinthians 4:2 stuff!!

Quote: "And herein lies the deception of the doctrine of Trinity. Understand the Trinity as declared by Jesus is not a deception but rather the doctrine we are supposedly anointed with in order to be saved accordingly, is.

This is also why I disagree with John The Baptist (the forum member) who said he couldn't baptise anyone who did not agree with Matthew 28:20. Jesus instructed that we were not to deny the children to come to him. Denying to baptise someone based on the doctrine of Trinity is denying one from coming to Christ. And what were the consequences Jesus said for those who would deny the children from the kingdom of heaven?"

Hi John. :D

Would you agree that it is Christ who baptises in the Holy Spirit and that no man can judge rightly who is able to receive it?

Whether a person believes Jesus is an Angel; a God, or a Spirit, coming in the form of The Son of Man and the Son of God...isn't it merely belief in Christ as being the Son of God, our Lord and Saviour that causes one to repent of this world and accept his Salvation?

Accepting the model of Father, Son and Holy Spirit is accepting the will of God, the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the promise of a Comforter. One need not have to accept anything more than this in order to be saved.

It often disturbes me when I see doctrines of any denomination proclaiming to have the current salvation practices, to give "Christ" permission to baptise in the Holy Spirit. It puts the doctrine first and Christ second. This is what the Pharisees were doing with the Law also. They put the letter of the Law first and God last.

Anyone who is willing to accept Christ as their Lord and Saviour, gives "Christ" permission to baptise in the Holy Spirit. Doctrines are designed to cause doubt in the believer if they have actually confessed the correct Christ or not? Will any term other than the "Son of God" change his ability to save and baptise in the Holy Spirit?