I did respond to this in my earlier post. I even referred to the post preceding that, which dealt with the specifics. You declared it all pedantic. I'd have liked some discussion or arguments from your end before your final declaration. Anyway, what's more confusing is that you now reboot it - and I'm not sure if you want me to respond to it or if it's just a one-way sharing of your beliefs. If the latter, by all means, feel free. If the former, I'd say ditto.
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The stumbling blocks of reformed doctrines
- Thread starter ivdavid
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ezra
Member
your more than welcome to hold on to that belief .it does not affect me in the least bit. God speaks through a still small voice to the heart . you can reject it or buy it. makes me no never mind. i know in whom i have believed. i understand all this by studying . i doubt there are very many that %100 believe exactly like me . i strongly hold to what peter wrote not willing ANY SHOULD PERISH. .
That's pretty funny. I never thought that I defecated irresistible grace. I'll probably laugh every time I go to the bathroom thinking about it.
But on a more serious note I should probably tell you I'm not a Calvinist.
True. However that is exactly why the will is not free when controlled by nonsense, deception, false imaginations. Freewill implies self-governing, self determination. It is clear that the prodigal son's will was changed by circumstances outside that purview.
A contradiction in my view. You're claiming starvation didn't 'force' the prodigal son to acknowledge that with his Father is where the food was at.
Freewill means voluntary. A choice made out of necessity is not voluntary. We need food as a necessity unto life. Hunger is not a voluntary choice. Spiritually, it is the same. Christ is the food for our soul which we need for sustenance. Hence he says I am the bread of life.
The term "force" you are applying here means against one's will. But as this relates to moral choices, I'm speaking about spiritual forces that determine our will according to that which we believe as true. Therefore I would see this as an equivocation. In other words above you have claimed the will of the prodigal son already free before the Truth sets the prodigal son free. " he made the choice to leave of his own free will and returned under his own free will". Hence if the will is already free without the Truth, then the Truth is not necessary to set the will free since it is already free.
I already did, the prodigal son as well as Romans 8:20. I don't think you understand what I am saying or you wouldn't have posted this question. I'm saying Vanity is not voluntary and God's Truth is a Divine Force.
I understand freewill as this:
free will
noun
noun: free will; noun: freewill
- 1.
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
synonyms: self-determination, freedom of choice, autonomy, liberty, independence
restriction, limitation, curb, check, restraint, control, damper, rein;
hindrance, impediment, obstruction, handicap
- stiffness of manner and inhibition in relations between people.
"they would be able to talk without constraint"
synonyms: inhibition, uneasiness, embarrassment;
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ezra
Member
defecation that was typo using spell check your free to believe hardcore Calvinism if ya want . i will sleep just fine i have been down this road several times in another Calvinist forum . sometimes it gets down right rude.. i have no desire to get that way in here. i was holding a correspondence with chopper who is a Calvinist but not dogmatic about it. enjoy i will go to church in the morning knowing i ahve freedom of worship-freewill .so as i aint programmed to any one certain church articles of faith
Deborah13
Member
For me it is more often what I would call an impression most of the time. Knowing when God is pleased or not pleased. Praying about something and having a feeling of urgency or incompeteness, or a feeling of peace. But even more of the time He speaks through His word. Like a verse I have read many times but then one time, it just socks me start in the heart or light bulb comes on. Have you ever had a thought that you knew was not your own, I have. I think all of this is very common to all believers.
That is what I thought you believed.
But when people don't agree their argument might include things that yours doesn't. because they see things very differently so their argument is going to include what supports their side of the argument. It's much easier to just discuss individual scriptures from both sides.
Yes, I think we are spiritually dead, we have no clear understanding, our minds cannot comprehend the things of God, we are as dead men. But surely if God can speak and raise the dead, He can cause the dead man's spirit to hear. It is a part of us and that is where I believe God communes with us. Spirit to spirit, not Spirit to flesh. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness, and judgment.
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
G1651 - reprove
ἐλέγχω
elegchō
el-eng'-kho
Of uncertain affinity; to confute, admonish: - convict, convince, tell a fault, rebuke, reprove.
This scripture says to me that the Holy Spirit, convicts the unbeliever (the world) of their sin, against a righteous God, and they should fear being judged with the evil one.
And so the apostles preached and the Jews were pricked in their hearts...
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
They heard the gospel, the Holy Spirit pricked their hearts (conviction), they repented, were baptized, and Then received the Holy Spirit. Then they were a new creature in Christ, they were regenerated when they received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
David,
I cited Norm Geisler's position because my investigation of this topic demonstrates what Geisler wrote. Perhaps my quoting of Geisler was not clear enough that I consider he is promoting the biblical position. As indicated above, he wrote:
''Contrary to the claims of extreme Calvinists, there are no verses properly understood that teach regeneration is prior to faith. Instead, it is the uniform pattern of Scripture to place faith logically prior to salvation as a condition for receiving it' (Geisler 1999:228).
To support his position, Geisler examined Romans 5:1; Luke 13:3; 2 Peter 3:9; John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Romans 3:24-25; John 3:6-7; and Titus 3:5-7 (1999:228-230), to demonstrate that faith is prior to regeneration'.
To support his position, Geisler examined Romans 5:1; Luke 13:3; 2 Peter 3:9; John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Romans 3:24-25; John 3:6-7; and Titus 3:5-7 (1999:228-230), to demonstrate that faith is prior to regeneration'.
It is a sound biblical position that faith is prior to regeneration and not the other way round.
I was reading in Calvin’s Institutes where he equates repentance with regeneration. John Calvin in Institutes of the Christian Religion, III.3.9-10, wrote:
'9. Both of these we obtain by union with Christ. For if we have true fellowship in his death, our old man is crucified by his power, and the body of sin becomes dead, so that the corruption of our original nature is never again in full vigor (Rom. 6:5, 6). If we are partakers in his resurrection, we are raised up by means of it to newness of life, which conforms us to the righteousness of God. In one word, then, by repentance I understand regeneration, French, “une regeneration spirituelle;”—a spiritual regeneration. the only aim of which is to form in us anew the image of God, which was sullied, and all but effaced by the transgression of Adam. So the Apostle teaches when he says, “We all with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord.” Again, “Be renewed in the spirit of your minds” and “put ye on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.” Again, “Put ye on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him.” 2 Cor. 3:18; Eph. 4:23, 24; Col. 3:10; 2 Cor. 4:16. Accordingly through the blessing of Christ we are renewed by that regeneration into the righteousness of God from which we had fallen through Adam, the Lord being pleased in this manner to restore the integrity of all whom he appoints to the inheritance of life. This renewal, indeed, is not accomplished in a moment, a day, or a year, but by uninterrupted, sometimes even by slow progress God abolishes the remains of carnal corruption in his elect, cleanses them from pollution, and consecrates them as his temples, restoring all their inclinations to real purity, so that during their whole lives they may practice repentance, and know that death is the only termination to this warfare. The greater is the effrontery of an impure raver and apostate, named Staphylus, who pretends that I confound the condition of the present life with the celestial glory, when, after Paul, I make the image of God to consist in righteousness and true holiness; as if in every definition it were not necessary to take the thing defined in its integrity and perfection. It is not denied that there is room for improvement; but what I maintain is, that the nearer any one approaches in resemblance to God, the more does the image of God appear in him. That believers may attain to it, God assigns repentance as the goal towards which they must keep running during the whole course of their lives.
10. By regeneration the children of God are delivered from the bondage of sin, but not as if they had already obtained full possession of freedom, and no longer felt any annoyance from the flesh. Materials for an unremitting contest remain, that they may be exercised, and not only exercised, but may better understand their weakness. All writers of sound judgment agree in this, that, in the regenerate man, there is still a spring of evil which is perpetually sending forth desires that allure and stimulate him to sin…' (my emphasis).
10. By regeneration the children of God are delivered from the bondage of sin, but not as if they had already obtained full possession of freedom, and no longer felt any annoyance from the flesh. Materials for an unremitting contest remain, that they may be exercised, and not only exercised, but may better understand their weakness. All writers of sound judgment agree in this, that, in the regenerate man, there is still a spring of evil which is perpetually sending forth desires that allure and stimulate him to sin…' (my emphasis).
There is no mention here of regeneration/repentance prior to faith.
Oz
As I said ezra, I'm not Calvinist. I don't like labels. I'm sorry you've had bad experiences on a Calvinist Forum.
Absolutely. I agree this is the case in all believers, and I have much more to add on how God communes with believers. But in the case of the unbeliever, how does the Holy Spirit commune with man's spirit before birthing it(John 3:6)? If anyway, the Holy Spirit can commune so, then what is the need to birth it later - what exactly changes and to what end?
I'm glad we've brought this discussion thus far.
If you simply draw a parallel between God speaking and raising the dead to life, then the corresponding scenario would be God speaking and raising/rebirthing man's spirit to life - does God speak and wait for the dead to hear and decide if it wants to remain dead / accept God's supernatural work in coming to life, does God ask Ezekiel to prophecy(Eze 37:9) to the breathless valley of dry bones and wait for their decision before breathing life into them, does God expect dead Lazarus to hear and listen to His voice(John 11:43) while he is still dead?
Your statement should be - "But surely if God can speak and raise the dead, He can cause the dead man's spirit to be raised alive so as to hear and listen to God" - isn't it? What use is it to say that the dead spirit hears, the dead spirit listens, the dead spirit discerns and accepts/rejects the things of God - why do we need to be born in an alive spirit then? And if you do concede that God causes this man's dead spirit to be raised to life - is that not regeneration right there through an irresistible grace?
I thought you agreed with my point in Post179, that the "receiving of the Holy Spirit" as at Pentecost was different from the "indwelling of the Spirit" - I see Acts 2:38 is in context of the promised Spirit mentioned in Acts 2:33, do you disagree? To me, Rom 8:9 happens before Acts 2, Eph 1:13 such that -
They heard the Gospel, they were regenerated in the spirit with a new heart(in place of the stony one) and indwelt by the Spirit, the Holy Spirit pricked their hearts (conviction), they repented, were baptized, and then received the promised Holy Spirit as at Pentecost.
That's clear enough - this is not where the confusion lies.
Which of these verses have Regeneration and Faith in the same context? I see you reading Regeneration=Salvation, which I've shown in earlier posts is not the case. If you'd like to discuss those points, I'd be happy to elaborate and clarify.
Okay? Should it matter to me that Calvin equates the two? I don't - in fact, I hold regeneration to precede repentance too - I've shared my beliefs and what they're based on, in Post181.
I feel I should say that sin began with Satan, not Adam. John 8:44. And it is vanity that begets sin. Isaiah 5:18. Vanity represents that purely subjective perspective wherein we compare ourselves with others, as if God didn't make us as who we are, according to His purpose. It takes for granted all the good that is in us as if we create ourselves. Vanity begets a corrupt pride, and corrupt judgment, a defiled conscience full of envy and hypocrisy, which is also an iniquity. We find fault with others and feel lifted up in ourselves when we do. That essentially is wickedness, a depraved race to see who is the best at finding fault with others so as to confirm one's own righteousness.
However, in the objective view, that is not true righteousness. True Love is unconditional. 1 Corinthians... 135 NIV It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking,it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. When people speak of believing in freewill as pertains to spiritual morality, I feel that it is a purely subjective and judgmental view of choices being made. While what we are really looking at, objectively speaking, is everyone displaying who they are by what they do and say. To me, that is what the nakedness that Christ's blood covers is all about.
Vanity does not esteem God as God. Vanity doesn't know God. Vanity has a false image of god at it's core. Hence it has a false definition of righteousness. Even because Who a person believes God is in both Spirit and Character, defines a person's moral terminology. 2 Corinthians 4: 4. 2 Corinthians 11:14.
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Chopper
Member
Jeremiah.
Chopper
Member
Very good Oz, faith precedes regeneration. I actually can believe that some Calvinists, as they view God calling the elect before the foundations of the world as regenerated before faith. This is because they know that when God chooses the elect, potentially they are saved, but sometime later in their life when they respond to the Gospel, not before.
Deborah13
Member
This is from your post #181.
Do you believe that John was baptizing people who did not have faith in Christ? I don't see that.
The people, who were being baptisted by John, were Jews, not Greeks that had no knowledge of Him. They believed their Messiah, Redeemer was coming. John is telling them, that this man, Yeshua, is the One that they had been told about and to believe that He is the One. They believed before they actually saw Him, (believed in things that be not as though they were).
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
And so they did as John said, believed, had faith, that John's message was true. They repented, and then they were baptized for remission of sin. Faith came first.
Mat 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 3:3 For this is He that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
John preached first, quoted the scriptures, convincing them, that Yeshua was the One Elijah had prophesied about. Then he baptized those who believed and repented. Look at the word "For". In other words, repent, "Because" this is He, the kingdom of heaven is at hand. John was preparing the way, just like all the other prophets before him had done. Except John had a name, Yeshua, and the time is now.
When reading what Peter said to them, in Acts, his words spoken by the power of the Holy Spirit and the conviction of the Comforter against their unbelief and sin, against God and the innocent, righteous One, who had died to save them, what kind of judgement does that deserve? So they cry, "What should we do?" Just what part of that can man boast about?
Faith, by God's definition, is believing in things that be not as though they were.
Do you believe that John was baptizing people who did not have faith in Christ? I don't see that.
The people, who were being baptisted by John, were Jews, not Greeks that had no knowledge of Him. They believed their Messiah, Redeemer was coming. John is telling them, that this man, Yeshua, is the One that they had been told about and to believe that He is the One. They believed before they actually saw Him, (believed in things that be not as though they were).
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
And so they did as John said, believed, had faith, that John's message was true. They repented, and then they were baptized for remission of sin. Faith came first.
Mat 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 3:3 For this is He that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
John preached first, quoted the scriptures, convincing them, that Yeshua was the One Elijah had prophesied about. Then he baptized those who believed and repented. Look at the word "For". In other words, repent, "Because" this is He, the kingdom of heaven is at hand. John was preparing the way, just like all the other prophets before him had done. Except John had a name, Yeshua, and the time is now.
When reading what Peter said to them, in Acts, his words spoken by the power of the Holy Spirit and the conviction of the Comforter against their unbelief and sin, against God and the innocent, righteous One, who had died to save them, what kind of judgement does that deserve? So they cry, "What should we do?" Just what part of that can man boast about?
Deborah13
Member
That's not very helpful without some context or some scripture. What are you referring to?
Of course. Sin begins wherever God does not sustain and preserve by His own holy nature. I was simply referring to mankind alone in my earlier post - that was not intended to say that sin began with Adam.
These are the earnest questions I've had -
1. If the Garden of Eden was a "Test" of man's freewilled choice, as some people believe, how is it that these same freewilled creatures who have never once passed a day without sinning, suddenly cease to sin forever in the eternal Kingdom of God? Do they lose their freewill once they are resurrected? If not, how is there the guarantee that not even one can sin even once there?
2. If this guarantee of holy perfection is given by God working in us in the spirit, in the absence of our sinful flesh, then why did not God create us so in the first place itself? Why that sequence in 1Cor 15:46 ?
3. If satan/lucifer was already puffed up with self-pride, why was he not thrown into the eternal lakes of fire before he could tempt Eve?
4. Why wasn't he thrown immediately after tempting her either?
Once again, these are not questions doubting God's ways - rather to understand the glorious purpose behind His ways.
If I have to answer my own questions -
1. The Garden of Eden was not a "Test" so much as it was a Lesson to us to show how we inevitably fall apart from God working in us to will and do according to His own pleasure(Php 2:13). He shows us the difference between the flesh that is brought into bondage by Sin that overwhelms it(2Pet 2:19), and the spirit that is led by God Himself(Rom 8:14).
2. We were sown in corruption so that we can be raised in incorruption(1Cor 15:42) - for God must necessarily condemn Sin in the nature it is committed, which is why Christ had to come and die in the flesh for us(Rom 8:3) - hence the flesh stands condemned and cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. And we are raised in the spirit by the power of the Holy Spirit(Rom 8:11). I assume the elect angels(1Tim 5:21) which are ministering spirits wouldn't know about God's glory in this wonderful redemption from sinful flesh unless they learn looking at God working in man(1Pet 1:12) - just as we might not have known if we had been created in the spirit.
3. While satan already sinned in his heart, God concludes all under sin manifested in their works, leaving none any excuse to find fault with His judgements(Psa 51:4).
4. God purposed Judgement Day to happen later, which cannot be thwarted with the perishing of mankind there in the Garden - God doesn't pull up the wheat with the tares(Matt 13:29).
In conclusion, I believe God is contrasting our failure in our own decisions in the flesh against the glory of His decisions in the spirit, showing forth His glory in us.
Neither do I. I think even before this, it's beyond doubt that the OT saints looked forward to Christ(1Pet 1:10-11). I had quoted Acts 19 not to imply that those weren't believers - but rather to note the order of baptism itself. The baptism of repentance followed by the baptism of faith. That was what I'd based it on.
This might be like splitting hair - because repentance and faith go together - there cannot be the one without the other. Yes, these are the very foundation - repentance from dead works and faith towards God (Heb 6:1).
It is like a person clinging on to his sinking pillar of dead works and being asked to turn away from that pillar onto the sure pillar of Christ - he cannot cling on to the pillar of Christ without letting go of his dead works pillar, neither can he let go of his pillar and not cling on to Christ. But note, the hand must first let go before it can cling on - and so must the turning away from the self precede the clinging on to Christ, though both be completed simultaneously.
Yes, I believe this. And as I said above, repentance and faith go together - so while I do see what you're getting at, I just think it's not quite conclusive from the passage you quoted. You might have mistakenly read Christ into Elijah's prophecy in Matthew 3:3 - while it actually refers to John himself(John 1:23).
I speak from personal experience - I had to first begin turning away from my dead works before throwing myself upon Christ. But yes, my personal testimony is not of merit in a debate forum. I therein appeal to the order of ordinances seen in the baptismal order of repentance preceding faith in Acts 19. I could even appeal to supporting arguments(not conclusive in itself) seen in the phrase usage of repentance always preceding faith, even when Christ Himself spoke(Mark 1:15), also seen everywhere else in the NT. Finally, I appeal to logic itself, wherein one cannot cling to Christ while he's still clinging on to his dead works - one cannot believe in the sufficiency of Christ's work while he's still resting on his own works - one cannot accept grace while he still sees himself meritorious under the law. Therefore, a turning away from dead works must necessarily precede the throwing oneself upon Christ(Heb 6:1).
I'm not very sure I've understood the point you're getting at here - are you showing that man choosing to accept conviction through the Gospel has nothing to boast about, while he makes the choice himself apart from irresistible grace?
turnorburn
Member
Do you see this as an act of free will?
Genesis 25:29 And Jacob sod pottage: and Esau came from the field, and he was faint:
30 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I amfaint: therefore was his name called Edom.
31 And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright.
32 And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?
33 And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob.
34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright.
tob
Chopper
Member
God has always been delighted in a person who believes in Him and trusts Him out of the love that He showed that person.
Deborah13
Member
Agreed.
Nope, David, Isaiah, Elijah, and John were all individual prophets of God who all spoke of and pointed the way to the coming Redeemer.
Why did they believe? Did they somehow just believe all on their own? Or was it the Word of God spoke under the influence of the Holy Spirit and the conviction applied by the Holy Spirit? If it hadn't been for the Holy Spirit they never would have believed.
Salvation is the work of God in us that believe. But that doesn't mean He doesn't allow man to resist the Holy Spirit.
God offers a gift and there is boasting in taking the gift that is freely given? How does one boast in a gift given that is totally undeserved? It would be different if one had earned it, but then it isn't a gift at all, is it? That would be wages earned, not a gift.