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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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The Value of Evangelism in Reformed Theology
- Thread starter TibiasDad
- Start date
Order of Salvation - Regeneration precedes Faith
1 John 5:1 "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God" ...The verb tense make's John's intention unmistakable: Everyone who goes on believing [present, continuous action] that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God [perfect, completed action with abiding effects]. Faith is the evidence of new birth, not the cause of it." “Has been born” is a passive verb; they are caused to be born by another, that being God. Some Arminian exegetes might object to this interpretation. A means of testing the consistency of the exegesis offered of this passage would be to ask how such a person interprets these words: 1 John 2:29 If you know that he is righteous, you also know that everyone who practices righteousness has been fathered by him. Every consistent Protestant would say, “the reason one “practices righteousness” is because they have already been “born of Him”.
1 John 5:1 "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God" ...The verb tense make's John's intention unmistakable: Everyone who goes on believing [present, continuous action] that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God [perfect, completed action with abiding effects]. Faith is the evidence of new birth, not the cause of it." “Has been born” is a passive verb; they are caused to be born by another, that being God. Some Arminian exegetes might object to this interpretation. A means of testing the consistency of the exegesis offered of this passage would be to ask how such a person interprets these words: 1 John 2:29 If you know that he is righteous, you also know that everyone who practices righteousness has been fathered by him. Every consistent Protestant would say, “the reason one “practices righteousness” is because they have already been “born of Him”.
TibiasDad
Member
I must apologize, for there are times that my expressions tend get a little too hyperbolic for my own good. I don't think you think me an idiot, despite my obvious and outspoken disagreement with your views.
I would also say that I think you premature in your assessment of my being "capable of returning the favor". Quite the contrary! I may disagree with the conclusions and interpretations of Reformed thought, but I have great respect for the logic of the TULIP soteriology. I likewise understand your view of Jn 3:16, "given your exegesis of other scriptures." But that's the point, is it not? Our exegetical interpretations and hermeneutical processes are the real issue in my humble opinion, and that is not a scriptural question properly speaking.
1) We are discussing the nature of the love of God toward those not regenerated.
I am not sure exactly what your saying here, but I think I would agree. "This is the way God loved the world" is the foundation of the question, and that is in the context of an unregenerate world.
2) God is love, but love is not God.
We are delving into philosophy at this point, and I can see both sides of the question. God certainly is Love, but given this, it is impossible to separate the concept of God and that of love. John demonstrates this in 1 Jn 4:
7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
John so closely relates the relationship between God and love, that to have one is to necessarily have the other and visa-versa! I think that this is why John records Jesus's emphasis on love being the ultimate law, the singular command that defines the Christian experience. You cannot have one without the other!
So I can understand your assertion, and can, to one degree sympathize with it, but I think just as strong if not stronger arguments can be made to say that, pragmatically speaking, the two concepts are interchangeable.
3) But He is also the wellspring of justice, mercy, peace, etc.
But can you truly have justice, mercy and peace without love? I would say not! Justice is doing what is right in any given situation, and that is the seeking of proper benefit being enacted toward a disenfranchised party. Someone is robbed, the thief is caught and made to recompense to loss and be penalized accordingly. You are seeking the benefit of another, which is love in action. It is equally true for mercy and peace. Love is the foundation stone of both these concepts.
4) I see no way of wrapping my head around God in His justice sending John Doe to hell for eternity and maintaining that God's act is done in love toward John Doe. Looks like divine righteous wrath to me.
I am not sure how to explain it any better than what I just said above. Love gives freedom to choose to obey! Justice is to give them what they choose, and also to recompence the loss of the victim of those ill choices. Both directions of action are loving because it honors the needs of both parties. It honors the need of the individual to be able to choose his own direction, and it honors the need of the victims of those choices. I think the account in Rev 6 shows this correlation:
9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, e were killed just as they had been.
They were crying out for judgement on those who had taken their lives. It is avengement and wrath on the perpetrators, but and act of comfort and appeasement, aka love, toward the victims. Their sacrifice, the losing of their lives, needed to be acknowledged and validated as wrong and the integrity of their faithfulness vindicated as authentic.
More later...
Doug
I was wanting a yes or a no. so you have no idea if you are elect or not? You just hope that you are on judgement day? I would like to hammer this down because I dont need elusive answers they help no one.When I stand before God to give an account, I will have nothing to offer as a defense other than the work accomplished by Christ in His death and resurrection. I am trusting He will be my righteousness, for I've got nothing to commend myself to a Most Holy God.
So do you think I'm part of the elect?
Why do you ask? Are you concerned for me?
My God or your God?
Your God? Apparantly yes as your belief has us being just the product of God's will. Every bad part of us is apart of God's plan for us. Your God is a God of hate.
My God created mankind without the desire to sin because mankind was created in a relationship with God and he was our desire. Man's desire to sin came when man chose to reject God and his heart was corrupted.
TibiasDad
Member
γεγέννηται, is a perfect tense, indicative mood, Middle voice, according to Biblehub.com's parsing.
The verse reads, "Everyone who presently is believing (present, active, participle)... has been at some point in the past and currently are born again." There is no cause and effect principle in the perfect tense, it merely says something happened in the past and the effects of that event are still extant at the time of writing. There is no information within the tense itself on when in the past this happened, just that there was a completed action whose effects are on going at the time of writing. Nor is there information on what may have caused the event to happen. The perfect tense only says an event happened (completed action) and the effects or results of that completed action are still in effect. Nothing more, nothing less.
The present tense believing, however, logically speaking, also had to have started at some point prior to the present moment when belief is depicted as actively working (not beginning to work). John doesn't say whoever is starting to believe presently has already been born again. He says whoever is currently actively believing has been and is born again. There is nothing to say that the present tense belief is necessarily caused by the the completed action of being born again.
Any notion that the perfect tense necessitates a cause and effect principle is invalidated in 1Jn 5:10 where we have the same present tense/perfect tense contrast:
Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.
"Whoever does not believe" is the present tense, active, participle, and "has made him out to be a liar" is the perfect tense verb. Clearly, the former is the cause and the latter is the effect, and John emphasizes the fact by stating they have made God a liar "because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son."
So we have contextual evidence that John believes that not believing causes God to be made a liar, so it is logical to infer that he also believes that believing causes one to be born again, and the middle voice would support this understanding.
Doug
Hospes
Member
Wow! Really? You are all-knowing enough to know I serve a false god? Do you really think so highly of yourself as to make this call? "Move over, God, and give your seat up for Moseme so he can declare who is yours and who is not!" Really?
First, let's not assume one another's answers to questions, but rather let the other person speak for themself. Just a simple courtesy, you think?
You are right that I think God not only could have removed, but is removing and will remove my desire to sin. While here on earth He chooses a progressive process and when I leave this earth I think He will completely remove it. If I expect Him to do it when I see Him face to face, I see no reason He could not have done it at any time He desired.
Am I to understand you think you are not a product of God's will? If you are not, then what are you a product of? Is there some part of you that God is not ultimately sovereign over?
Do you not think that God does not use evil to accomplish His will, i.e. His plan? Is evil running rampant, out of God's ability to control? Before you answer, you may want to review Peter's speech at Pentecost.
Not only are you able to pronounce judgement on me following of a false God, you even have the ability to pronounce judgement on various gods! My, my, it must be such a heavy load to bear!
Sarcasm aside, do you have a clue as to what you are doing when you make such pronouncements? Do you have a clue that you and I will one day stand before God and give an acount for our every careless word? Do you even begin to feel the weight of the consequences of your words if by some wild chance the God I serve is the one true God? I can handle pretty well spleen-venting and two-minutes-of-hate toward me, but I will not continue a conversation where such is directed at my Lord. Are we clear on this?
This I can agree with.
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Hospes
Member
JLB, do you understand that questions many times have premises that must be accepted as true before the answer can be given? "Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no!" has the unstated premise that you were at some point beating your wife. Surely, you understand this!
Your question has the unstated premise that salvation and believing cannot occur simultaneously. I cannot answer your question because l do not accept its premise as true.
Am I clear enough or do you need more explanation?
Hospes
Member
Take a look at my previous post to JLB regarding questions having premises. Your question has a whole raft of potential unexpressed premises. If you want nothing but yes-or-no answers, ask yes-or-no questions. Ask a complex question, don't be sore because you don't get a yes-or-no answer.
BTW, doesn't sound like you find much value in hope. You know, it is one of the big three, don't you?
So, why not help me hammer this down. Help me know by telling me how you know you are elect. (I assume you do; please correct me if I am wrong.)
Let me first start out by saying that I am sure that your are a very decent person so I am not trying to say anything about your person but your doctrine. Second we are dealing with two fundamentally different yes doctrines of God and at least one has to be false. Either your belief about God or my belief. Next, I am not trying to declare anything about who actually belongs to God I am saying it is up to the individuals choice because God would desire for us all to have a relationship with him.
I am the product of God's will plus my will. Of course I have to admit that the only good parts about me are the parts where my will decides to line up with God's will. Now you mentioned God's sovereignty and I have to ask will we ever fully comprehend all of God's sovereignity this side of heaven? No, but I do know that God's sovereignty is not challenged by us having free will.
Now it is an evil God who has to use evil to work out his plan. An even more evil God who chooses to use evil when he could instead us good. It is a good God who gives us a choice to freely love or hate him and then transforms the evil that we create into good.
And what else can I say about a God who could have chosen everyone to be elect and for there to be no evil, but instead chooses to make evil and chooses to place people in that evil for no other purpose than for us to be in evil and then chooses most of us to not have a relationship with him and instead be punished eternally for choices that were always beyond our control. What else can I say about this God except that he's evil? And that's what Paul tells us to do when he says test the spirits. I have a responsibility as a free moral agent to make the right choices because I will face the consequences for my choices. God gives us his word and the spirit of truth to aid us in judging doctrines, and beliefs, and the words that come out of people's mouths. I have to make the right choice because it is my choice.
Lastly I do not hate you. In fact I love the amount of trust that you seem to put into Jesus for your justification. If you thought it was hate then I am sorry for the misunderstanding that I put out there. I do get a little excited sometimes and I want to make it clear that my intention is not to attack you or God, I am only attacking this doctrine and the logical conclusion of a redemptive plan such as this. But let it be know God is able to stand on his own and in truth needs none of us to defend him.
Ok I'll make the question more simple. Do you know right now if you are apart of the elect or do you just hope that you are?
I have alot of hope and that hope is made sure by God confirming it by his Holy Spirit. The hope that comes from God is not like normal hope because hope in God comes with guarantees.
And you are correct, I have been chosen (as have the entire human race). But I have accepted grace and I have a relationship with God. I know this because his spirit bears witness with my spirit. This isn't just a hope that God will one day choose to love me enough to want a relationship with me. I have a relationship with him now.
Genesis 50:20 As for you, you meant [refers to Joseph's brothers sinful treatment of Joseph] evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present outcome, that many people would be kept alive [as they are this day].
Acts 2:23 this Man, when handed over [to the Roman authorities] according to the predetermined decision and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross and put to death by the hands of lawless and godless men.
Acts 4:27 For in this city there were gathered together against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined [before the creation of the world] to occur [and so without knowing it, they served Your own purpose].
These are examples of "God who chooses to use evil" as you put it ... and you say "Now "it is an evil God who has to use evil to work out his plan."
so ...
Premise 1: God is not evil
Premise 2: The verses above IMO clearly state God choose to use evil
Question: How is it you state: "it is an evil God who has to use evil to work out his plan." ???
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Hi Doug,
I believe your O.P. is very important.
After years of study and learning, I've come to the conclusion that there are two theological truths that tower over all the others, and thus which I find to be the most important.
1. God loves all men and desires that ll men be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4
...who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Any other God is not useful to we humans and is not a God of love---which the bible clearly states He is.
James 2:8 and many others.
2. Eternal Security
We cannot continue to be saved if we spend a life sinning and not being sorry for it.
I believe the idea of OSAS is a very dangerous idea and makes persons feel they cannot forfeit their salvation no matter what type of life they live.
This is not true and should be dismissed from the doctrines of Christianity....especially since this doctrine was not even accepted until 15 hundred years after Jesus' death and resurrection.
The gospel message is very powerful, as you state...
1. God loves everyone and desires all to be saved (if they WANT to be).
2. Repentence is necessary. (a change of life).
3. We cannot live a life of sin. (a LIFE OF SIN).
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
hI Hospes,
I've been reading your exchange with JLB with much interest.
Here are the answers to your questions:
1. WHY would you present the gospel to anyone if it is not THEIR CHOICE to either believe its message or not believe it?
If it is God's CHOICE as to who will be saved, I'm sure He is perfectly capable of saving them whether or not they ever hear the gospel message.
Why do you believe Jesus would give such a command knowing full well it is up to God to decide who will be saved???
In Matthew 28:18-20 Jesus gives the instruction to go out and teach all persons with whom the Apostles come into contact...
He does NOT tell them to not worry about saving anyone since God Father will handle it.
2. You mean God needs YOU to accomplish His means? This sounds very anti-calvinistic.
And what IS the will of God in the world?
1 Timothy 2:3-4
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Luke 9:23
23 Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.
2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
3. Seems like YOU love those that are without Christ more than God does.
He doesn't seem to have a problem leaving most of the world unsaved.
Matthew 7:13
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
4. I agree. (just not HOW they got to believe).
5. I don't believe God needs to have His glorious grace be recognized by saving one more soul.
God is glorious if He did nothing at all.
And to think that He needs to show us his glory by allowing most to go to hell and some few to go to heaven
is blasphemous....in my humble opinion.
Now please explain to me the basis for explaining the gospel to a person that has NO FREE WILL to either accept it or not.
As to your calvinist soteriology....I agree with NONE of it.
But I love you because you love Jesus and look forward to finally meeting you in heaven one day.
limited ,not no will.
I'm limited by inability to change myself to be Holy ,unless God wants to deliver me I,will remain the same
I want to to do this or that to be ready to retire ,etc
in short,an man devises his plans but,the order of his steps are by,the Lord
proverbs 16:9
nothing we do ,since God already knows as He exists outside of time can actually be done without He allowing it .
the Arminist cries choice in that ,the Calvinist says you do have choice but your path already foreseen is limited ,God already knows who will not come to him and who will.calvin never said God makes anyone serve him .
I really no longer get this debate .I see why my pastors wife cares not for it and she is neither Arminist or Calvinist .
the reformed view(my church and its demonotion) is as such ,God commanded us to reach the lost ,also is the view by doing so it hastens the Return as mentioned by Peter in 2 peter 3. I can once the video uploads ,post the study on that .
I'm limited by inability to change myself to be Holy ,unless God wants to deliver me I,will remain the same
I want to to do this or that to be ready to retire ,etc
in short,an man devises his plans but,the order of his steps are by,the Lord
proverbs 16:9
nothing we do ,since God already knows as He exists outside of time can actually be done without He allowing it .
the Arminist cries choice in that ,the Calvinist says you do have choice but your path already foreseen is limited ,God already knows who will not come to him and who will.calvin never said God makes anyone serve him .
I really no longer get this debate .I see why my pastors wife cares not for it and she is neither Arminist or Calvinist .
the reformed view(my church and its demonotion) is as such ,God commanded us to reach the lost ,also is the view by doing so it hastens the Return as mentioned by Peter in 2 peter 3. I can once the video uploads ,post the study on that .
TibiasDad
Member
You have not misunderstood me!
The point is that Pauline theology, and thus preaching, is founded on the love of God. He is writing to believers about when they were unbelievers and thus about God's love to those who are unbelievers!
Firstly, I think you meant to say "who was John's audience".
Secondly, you are delving into theories of the Atonement, which is a whole other question that I don't want to get into now, but the question of John's audience is irrelevant to the issue. But I don't think that the atonement being for all men means all will go to heaven. I think it means all people are made capable of being saved, but not that all will necessarily be saved.
Because Jesus is assuming the atonement, which is meant to set aside the wrath of God so that we all can be looked at by God and not be seen as enemies. The atonement reconciled God to the world. (Col 1:20) Without the atonement, God would not be reconciled.
Doug
Foreknowledge does not means cause. I have foreknowledge that a Calvinist will disagree with me when I state that God gave mankind free will in order to choose a relationship based on grace or not. That does not mean that I caused them to disagree with me or that they never had a choice but to disagree.
Ok your premises mean nothing if your God is evil. If he is evil then his scriptures would most likely be lies. And I also said that it is an even more evil God who chooses to use evil when he could just as easily use good. So according to your doctrine God is either weak or evil or both because evil is his choice and not ours.
That‘s not true, because I believe that biblical believing results in salvation by faith occurring simultaneously as a person obeys the Gospel by confessing Jesus as Lord because of the Spirit of grace empowering the person to act.
So my question does not have your mentioned “unstated premise”.
My question comes from years of discussing this subject with people, who believe the teachings of Calvinism, in which they claim that a person must first be saved, in order for them to believe the Gospel.
This conclusion comes from the idea that the Holy Spirit can not influence a person unless they are already saved.
JLB
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Hospes
Member
TibiasDad, JLB, Moseme, Fastfredy0, wondering:
Not that my answering your posts rank in the top concerns of your lives, but I do appreciate your responses and I thought I'd let you know my delayed responses are largely due to having a paying job, at least for the next 2-3 months. Upon retiring, my plan is to - by sheer volume of posts - wear down anyone who disagrees with me. I figure if I can't win arguments with winsome argument, I will win by exhausting my opponent.You have been notified.
[For those of you who don't do humor, most of what is written above is written in jest. And go take some lessons on how to lighten up.
]