The Value of Evangelism in Reformed Theology

[GodsGrace]

no,locally one does teach that

I'm posting the Statement of Faith of the Nazarene church.
As you can see, by entire sanctification they mean a process that is attained by following Christ.

CHRISTIAN HOLINESS AND ENTIRE SANCTIFICATION
We believe that sanctification is the work of God which transforms believers into the likeness of Christ. It is wrought by God’s grace through the Holy Spirit in initial sanctification, or regeneration (simultaneous with justification), entire sanctification, and the continued perfecting work of the Holy Spirit culminating in glorification. In glorification, we are fully conformed to the image of the Son.

We believe that entire sanctification is that act of God, subsequent to regeneration, by which believers are made free from original sin, or depravity, and brought into a state of entire devotement to God, and the holy obedience of love made perfect.

It is wrought by the baptism with or infilling of the Holy Spirit, and comprehends in one experience the cleansing of the heart from sin and the abiding, indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, empowering the believer for life and service. Entire sanctification is provided by the blood of Jesus, is wrought instantaneously by grace through faith, preceded by entire consecration; and to this work and state of grace the Holy Spirit bears witness.

This experience is also known by various terms representing its different phases, such as “Christian perfection,” “perfect love,” “heart purity,” “the baptism with or infilling of the Holy Spirit,” “the fullness of the blessing,” and “Christian holiness.”

10.1. We believe that there is a marked distinction between a pure heart and a mature character. The former is obtained in an instant, the result of entire sanctification; the latter is the result of growth in grace.

We believe that the grace of entire sanctification includes the divine impulse to grow in grace as a Christlike disciple. However, this impulse must be consciously nurtured, and careful attention given to the requisites and processes of spiritual development and improvement in Christlikeness of character and personality. Without such purposeful endeavor, one’s witness may be impaired and the grace itself frustrated and ultimately lost.

Participating in the means of grace, especially the fellowship, disciplines, and sacraments of the Church, believers grow in grace and in wholehearted love to God and neighbor.

 

[GodsGrace]

JLB, just to let you know, I have no hesitation in believing that God wills all to come to repentance. But I also believe that God, like us, has a hierarchy of wills.

I did not will to punish my son - I hated doing it - but I had a higher will that he grow to become a good man. My higher will overcame my lesser will, so I'd punish my son.

I suspect that most Christians would agree that if God's highest will was that all be saved, then all would be saved.

And herein lies the problem:

God wills that all be saved.
1 Timothy 2:3-4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

The above would describe universalism
except.....
that God gave us the free will to decide whether or not we WANT to be saved.
John 3:16-18
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


1. God gave His only Son so that whoever believes in Him will be saved.
2. God sent Jesus so that the world might be saved through Him.
3. He who does not believe has been judged already because he has not believed in the name of Jesus.


Jesus was sent to save the whole world through Him.
Anyone that is saved, is saved through the saving power of The Christ.

We come to believe through HEARING the gospel message.
Faith come by hearing the word of God. Romans 10:17

also:

Ephesians 1:13
13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

We hear, accept what we hear and come to believe in God.
The gospel is our salvation.

 

[Hospes]

What causes confusion is that some call themselves calvinist but then have beliefs that are not common to Calvinism.
MAYBE @Hospes is one of these...certainly @Jason is since I know his beliefs.

This is aside from our other line of discussion:

To what degree do I need to agree with Calvin's Institutes to be Calvinist? Or if you agree with parts of Institutes, to what degree of agreement would make you a Calvinist?

If I agree broadly with the Canons of Dort (not written by Calvin), does that make me a Calvinist? Or do I need to march in lockstep with all Calvin ever wrote?

Just trying to understand what criteria you use to place anyone in/out the Calvinist camp.

 

[Hospes]

And herein lies the problem:

God wills that all be saved.
1 Timothy 2:3-4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

The above would describe universalism
except.....
that God gave us the free will to decide whether or not we WANT to be saved.
John 3:16-18
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


1. God gave His only Son so that whoever believes in Him will be saved.
2. God sent Jesus so that the world might be saved through Him.
3. He who does not believe has been judged already because he has not believed in the name of Jesus.


Jesus was sent to save the whole world through Him.
Anyone that is saved, is saved through the saving power of The Christ.

We come to believe through HEARING the gospel message.
Faith come by hearing the word of God. Romans 10:17

also:

Ephesians 1:13
13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

We hear, accept what we hear and come to believe in God.
The gospel is our salvation.

Would it be right then to say that you see God's higher will - greater than His will that all be saved - is that we have free-will?

 

[GodsGrace]

Given what you have written above and my definitions below, would the following be an accurate definition of free will?

Free will is the ability for a person to autonomously provide the decisive moral willingness necessary for choosing between two or more choices?​

ability - power or capacity to do or act physically, mentally, legally, morally, financially, etc.
autonomous - not controlled by others or by outside forces; independent.
decisive - settling a matter or conflict
willingness - consent or readiness to do something
necessary - absolutely needed: required

I'd agree to the above if we understand the following:

My moral decision is based on GOD'S moral laws.
I can decide to follow that moral law or break it and sin.

The decision is not CONTROLLED by outside forces, but is influenced by outside forces; however, the moral decision is still my own and I am not manipulated
by God to do HIS will. (although the Holy Spirit does lead us in that direction).

I'm not sure what you mean by NECESSARY....
of course my decision includes the necessary willingness to either sin or not sin.
My decision is not coerced by any outside force.

I believe in Libertarian free will.
Calvinists believe in compatible free will.
Do you believe in compatible free will?

Compatible free will:
God manipulates your will to want what HE wants,,,but you still believe that your choice was free from external control.

Libertarian free will makes me responsible for my decision. My free will is not determined.
Compatible free will removes responsibility from what I choose since it was not really I that made the choice. It was determined.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is aside from our other line of discussion:

To what degree do I need to agree with Calvin's Institutes to be Calvinist? Or if you agree with parts of Institutes, to what degree of agreement would make you a Calvinist?

If I agree broadly with the Canons of Dort (not written by Calvin), does that make me a Calvinist? Or do I need to march in lockstep with all Calvin ever wrote?

Just trying to understand what criteria you use to place anyone in/out the Calvinist camp.

There are 2, 3, 4, 5 point calvinists.
Many agree with Perseverance of the Saints even though they are not reformed.

I say that if one believes in determinism, he is calvinist in theology.
One is calvinist if he believes that God chooses who will be saved....
If he believes that Jesus died for a select few...
believes in compatibilist free will.

Again, I believe free will is the key to understanding a person to be reformed, or not.

 

[GodsGrace]

Would it be right then to say that you see God's higher will - greater than His will that all be saved - is that we have free-will?

Of course.
God wants all to be saved....
but He gave us free will.
If we go to heaven, we go because we want to be with God...
if we go to hell it's because we do not want to be with God.

In reformed theology, God chooses who will go to heaven - and with no basis that we know of -
and the rest of humanity is doomed to hell through no fault of their own.

This goes against the major attributes of God
LOVE
MERCY
JUSTICE

God created Adam and Eve with the free will to choose to eat or not eat the forbidden fruit.
This free will was never taken away from man through to the book of Revelation.

Revelation 22:17
LET THE ONE WHO WISHES take the water of life with no cost.

 

[Hospes]

Free will is the ability for a person to autonomously provide the decisive moral willingness necessary for choosing between two or more choices?

I'm not sure what you mean by NECESSARY....

Necessary means that the "choosing" cannot happen unless the person autonomously provides decisive moral willingness.

If this is clear, do you agree with the definition?

 

[jasonc]

I'm posting the Statement of Faith of the Nazarene church.
As you can see, by entire sanctification they mean a process that is attained by following Christ.

CHRISTIAN HOLINESS AND ENTIRE SANCTIFICATION
We believe that sanctification is the work of God which transforms believers into the likeness of Christ. It is wrought by God’s grace through the Holy Spirit in initial sanctification, or regeneration (simultaneous with justification), entire sanctification, and the continued perfecting work of the Holy Spirit culminating in glorification. In glorification, we are fully conformed to the image of the Son.

We believe that entire sanctification is that act of God, subsequent to regeneration, by which believers are made free from original sin, or depravity, and brought into a state of entire devotement to God, and the holy obedience of love made perfect.

It is wrought by the baptism with or infilling of the Holy Spirit, and comprehends in one experience the cleansing of the heart from sin and the abiding, indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, empowering the believer for life and service. Entire sanctification is provided by the blood of Jesus, is wrought instantaneously by grace through faith, preceded by entire consecration; and to this work and state of grace the Holy Spirit bears witness.

This experience is also known by various terms representing its different phases, such as “Christian perfection,” “perfect love,” “heart purity,” “the baptism with or infilling of the Holy Spirit,” “the fullness of the blessing,” and “Christian holiness.”

10.1. We believe that there is a marked distinction between a pure heart and a mature character. The former is obtained in an instant, the result of entire sanctification; the latter is the result of growth in grace.

We believe that the grace of entire sanctification includes the divine impulse to grow in grace as a Christlike disciple. However, this impulse must be consciously nurtured, and careful attention given to the requisites and processes of spiritual development and improvement in Christlikeness of character and personality. Without such purposeful endeavor, one’s witness may be impaired and the grace itself frustrated and ultimately lost.

Participating in the means of grace, especially the fellowship, disciplines, and sacraments of the Church, believers grow in grace and in wholehearted love to God and neighbor.

I,said local,unless the person,who visits church is,lying ,are all chitches exactly,the same in even demonotion .?
I personally know of a catholoc chirch who doesn't do confessions or any of that usual praying to dead saints .chsrismatif catholic churches do that too.

my,local pastor also told me he preached on Romans 1 and 2 and avoided the tulip as he isn't a die hard 5 pointer .

so yes there are levels ,the local,Nazarene church .I looked has no link,to a national one or other body that I could find .

 

[jasonc]

funny when the tables turned the dances,begin .

 

[Hospes]

If this is clear, do you agree with the definition?

For the sake of keeping things moving, I am going to assume it's safe to believe you accept the definition for "free will."

Next question I have is "What role does God play in the process of someone exercising free will to make a choice?" (Of course, I am assuming you believe God plays a role.)

 

[GodsGrace]

Necessary means that the "choosing" cannot happen unless the person autonomously provides decisive moral willingness.

If this is clear, do you agree with the definition?

Yes, I agree.
As long as we understand that autonomously means that I am making the decision KNOWING AND ACCEPTING the morals that God h as set forth
and am guided by those morals --- even though I may want to not obey them at any given time.

 

[GodsGrace]

For the sake of keeping things moving, I am going to assume it's safe to believe you accept the definition for "free will."

Next question I have is "What role does God play in the process of someone exercising free will to make a choice?" (Of course, I am assuming you believe God plays a role.)

Ooops. Almost missed this.

Now you'll find that we agree on a lot.

God plays a role in everything that happens.
Nothing happens unless God ALLOWS it.

Allowing something to happen is different than DETERMINING it will happen.
If I make the decision it is different than if God makes it for me.
If God is forcing or coercing HIS will on my decision, it is no longer my free will decision. Libertarian free will.

But God also plays another role in my decision making.
Although He does not coerce His will on my free will, which He gave to us, His creation, I am still affected by
the moral rules He has set forth in His word and which are in our hearts.

That is what sin is....falling short of God's will (his higher will, I believe you call it) for our lives.
Sin is not attaining our goal...not making the right choice.

Would you care to explain YOUR idea of "free will"?

 

[GodsGrace]

I,said local,unless the person,who visits church is,lying ,are all chitches exactly,the same in even demonotion .?
I personally know of a catholoc chirch who doesn't do confessions or any of that usual praying to dead saints .chsrismatif catholic churches do that too.

my,local pastor also told me he preached on Romans 1 and 2 and avoided the tulip as he isn't a die hard 5 pointer .

so yes there are levels ,the local,Nazarene church .I looked has no link,to a national one or other body that I could find .

Nazarene churches SHOULD all be the same and teaching the same doctrine.
The national offices are in Youngstown, Ohio.

As to the Catholic church, the same h olds true.
All catholic churches should be teaching the same doctrine.
Sounds like a renegade catholic church!
I know of priests that PERSONALLY do not believe in purgatory, for instance...
however, they are not allowed to teach this.

A person may not agree totally with all doctrine of any church...but they should not teach
what THEY believe if they plan on pastoring a denominational church.

Denominations would h ave no meaning if all pastors just taught whatever they wanted to.

YOUR church has always confused me. A little reformed...but not too much.
I think it needs to make up its mind!

 

[jasonc]

Nazarene churches SHOULD all be the same and teaching the same doctrine.
The national offices are in Youngstown, Ohio.

As to the Catholic church, the same h olds true.
All catholic churches should be teaching the same doctrine.
Sounds like a renegade catholic church!
I know of priests that PERSONALLY do not believe in purgatory, for instance...
however, they are not allowed to teach this.

A person may not agree totally with all doctrine of any church...but they should not teach
what THEY believe if they plan on pastoring a denominational church.

Denominations would h ave no meaning if all pastors just taught whatever they wanted to.

YOUR church has always confused me. A little reformed...but not too much.
I think it needs to make up its mind!

its called human .should a pastor then at one point become ordained and just ignore his convictions and become a church founder with no higher authority to account ?

my pastor calls that one man shows and when he dies these simply vanish .

 

[Hospes]

Ooops. Almost missed this.

Now you'll find that we agree on a lot.

God plays a role in everything that happens.
Nothing happens unless God ALLOWS it.

Allowing something to happen is different than DETERMINING it will happen.
If I make the decision it is different than if God makes it for me.
If God is forcing or coercing HIS will on my decision, it is no longer my free will decision. Libertarian free will.

But God also plays another role in my decision making.
Although He does not coerce His will on my free will, which He gave to us, His creation, I am still affected by
the moral rules He has set forth in His word and which are in our hearts.

That is what sin is....falling short of God's will (his higher will, I believe you call it) for our lives.
Sin is not attaining our goal...not making the right choice.

Would you care to explain YOUR idea of "free will"?

Looking over what you have written, I see you have made two points about God's role in your choices:

1. He always allows you to have free will.
2. He provides you an understanding ("in our hearts") of good/evil ("moral rules") via the Bible ("His word").

Note I am assuming a bit in these two. Specifically, I am assuming the word "always" in #1. In #2, I am assuming He makes good/evil known to you, i.e. He was active in opening your eyes to what is good and what is evil and you would not have known them without Him being active. Please correct me if I assume anything wrongly; I really do want to understand your doctrine.

Is there more to God's role? (I'd guess you'd believe the Holy Spirit has more of a role - beyond revealing good/evil - before being born again and - maybe modified? - after being born again.)

 

[Hospes]

Would you care to explain YOUR idea of "free will"?

In due time; right now I want to focus on getting a clearer understanding of your doctrine.

At some point, I'd be glad to answer any questions you may have on my doctrine. (Though in prior posts, I get the sense you believe you already know what I believe, therefore have no need to gain a clearer understanding via questions.)

 

[GodsGrace]

its called human .should a pastor then at one point become ordained and just ignore his convictions and become a church founder with no higher authority to account ?

my pastor calls that one man shows and when he dies these simply vanish .

Yes! That is exactly what he should do. It's known as a non-denominational church, and there are many of them.
The pastor will teach what HE believes to be correct.

If this person wants to teach in, for instance, as Assembly of God denominational church - then he must teach what
that particular denomination states in their Statement of Faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

Looking over what you have written, I see you have made two points about God's role in your choices:

1. He always allows you to have free will.
2. He provides you an understanding ("in our hearts") of good/evil ("moral rules") via the Bible ("His word").

Note I am assuming a bit in these two. Specifically, I am assuming the word "always" in #1. In #2, I am assuming He makes good/evil known to you, i.e. He was active in opening your eyes to what is good and what is evil and you would not have known them without Him being active. Please correct me if I assume anything wrongly; I really do want to understand your doctrine.

Is there more to God's role? (I'd guess you'd believe the Holy Spirit has more of a role - beyond revealing good/evil - before being born again and - maybe modified? - after being born again.)

You're changing what I said a little bit .... I don't THINK I used the word ALWAYS, and don't really have much time to go back and make sure.

There are times when God will intercede in human actions in some way.
He can take evil meant by someone and turn it to good. Joseph's brothers.
He can harden a heart by giving up on a person and ALLOWING them to go their own way.
Romans 1:24
24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.

When we become born again, we are guided by the Holy Spirit.
Our conscience becomes conformed to the moral law that God has provided to mankind.
I do believe some learning also has to take place in regard to the conscience.

As to the role of God before being born again.....
God's grace falls on all of mankind or no one would ever become saved.
We are, however, free to respond to this invitation from Him. We are not so depraved as to be unable to respond.
God offers His helping hand to all that are in the pit and not just a select few.

 

[Hospes]

How can one make an "autonomous" and "moral" decision unless the standard for morality is defined internally by the person making the decision. In other words, the decision can't be "autonomous" if my "morals" originate from another

To be fair, I think those believing in free will would not deny that they receive their moral guidance from an external source and did not come up with it on their own, i.e. autonomously. They would say that they exercise free will - as defined in my conversation with Wondering - in choosing good/evil.

A little rant: I wish we'd all stop using what amounts to euphemisms for good/evil. I guess over time I see the way I have spoken about being "moral" or choosing "right/wrong" and realize I do not think my language captures the horror of sin. Choosing "wrongly" in regards to God's commands is not like getting addition wrong, it is a choice to do evil.

Thanks for giving me an excuse to rant. I feel better now!