I have written what I have written.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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The Victorious Christ
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Does not say faith alone! See below
Jesus Christ is Our salvation:
Truth / doctrine Jn 14:6
Sacrifice / sacraments Jn 1:16-17 Jn 1:29
Christ is in His person is our salvation Lk 2:30
How can it be “faith alone” Christ is not only a doctrine or set of beliefs but He is our Passover sacrifice and He is our salvation, His person, Lk 2:30 I have seen my Salvation!
We must have union with Christ by faith and baptism.
“Faith alone” condemned by sacred scripture!
Deut 6:4 love of God
Matt 19:17 commandments
Matt 16:25 lose you’re life / rev 12:11
Matt 28:19 faith & baptism
Matt 24:13 endure
Mk 16:16 faith & baptism
Jn 3:5 water & the spirit
Jn 15:4 abide in Christ
acts 2:38-39 repentance & baptism
acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
acts 22:16 name of the Lord & baptism
rom 10:10 faith & confession
1 cor 13:2 faith & charity
1 cor 13:13 faith, hope, & charity
1 cor 16:22 love of Jesus Christ
Phil 1:29 faith and suffering rom 8:17 2 Timothy 2:12
1 thes 1:3 faith, love, patience / 2 thes 1:4 / 1 Tim 6:11 /
James 2:24 faith & works
Heb 6:12 faith & patience / rev 13:10
Rev 2:19 works, charity, service, faith, patience
Rev 12:17 testimony of Jesus & commandments
Rev 14:12 commandments & patience
Rev 12:11 over cane by the blood of the Lamb not by “faith alone”
Three things are eternal! 1 cor 13:13
Faith:
Hope:
Charity:
1 cor 13:2 even all faith without charity (Deut 6:4) avails nothing!
Never “faith alone”!
Actual righteousness / holiness!
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Truth / doctrine Jn 14:6
Sacrifice / sacraments Jn 1:16-17 Jn 1:29
Christ is in His person is our salvation Lk 2:30
How can it be “faith alone” Christ is not only a doctrine or set of beliefs but He is our Passover sacrifice and He is our salvation, His person, Lk 2:30 I have seen my Salvation!
We must have union with Christ by faith and baptism.
“Faith alone” condemned by sacred scripture!
Deut 6:4 love of God
Matt 19:17 commandments
Matt 16:25 lose you’re life / rev 12:11
Matt 28:19 faith & baptism
Matt 24:13 endure
Mk 16:16 faith & baptism
Jn 3:5 water & the spirit
Jn 15:4 abide in Christ
acts 2:38-39 repentance & baptism
acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
acts 22:16 name of the Lord & baptism
rom 10:10 faith & confession
1 cor 13:2 faith & charity
1 cor 13:13 faith, hope, & charity
1 cor 16:22 love of Jesus Christ
Phil 1:29 faith and suffering rom 8:17 2 Timothy 2:12
1 thes 1:3 faith, love, patience / 2 thes 1:4 / 1 Tim 6:11 /
James 2:24 faith & works
Heb 6:12 faith & patience / rev 13:10
Rev 2:19 works, charity, service, faith, patience
Rev 12:17 testimony of Jesus & commandments
Rev 14:12 commandments & patience
Rev 12:11 over cane by the blood of the Lamb not by “faith alone”
Three things are eternal! 1 cor 13:13
Faith:
Hope:
Charity:
1 cor 13:2 even all faith without charity (Deut 6:4) avails nothing!
Never “faith alone”!
Actual righteousness / holiness!
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
That goes without saying, but have you understood what you have written? Have you understood what I have written?
You quoted a verse, that I previously provided, showing at least two commands for believers to follow in an attempt to show that there are no commands for believers to follow. You can’t have it both ways. Either there are commands for believers to follow or there are not. If there are not, then the verse you provided must be rejected as having anything to say to believers.
No, I have no idea what I have written. LOL.
"Either there are commands for believers to follow or there are not." Brilliant!
So, we agree then. You used words to make sentences to make a truth claim. Your truth claim, however, is self-contradictory and ignores much of the NT.
Not really. It should go without saying. However, by using a command for believers to say that there are no commands for believers, you want to have it both ways, and so it needed to be said.
There are numerous verses which have rules and commands for believers to follow. Those verses are inspired by the Holy Spirit, who also uses those verses to guide us in the freedom we have in Christ. It really is fairly simple and straightforward.
Robert Pate
Member
It does not need to say it, the whole Bible implies that salvation is by faith alone. It is by faith alone because it is by Christ alone. Sinners cannot save sinners, nor can sinners save themselves. God does not accept the works or the obedience of sinners. God only accepts the works and the obedience of Jesus Christ. We are accepted only in him and because of him.
You're under the law; I am under grace.
What does the law say about betting on the Super Bowl? How much time does the law say that people should spend on Twitter?
We've been over this. In a specific sense, yes, I am:
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. (ESV)
It seems that you are not, correct?
What do you think of these commands for Christians:
1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance,
1Pe 1:15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,
1Pe 1:16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”
1Pe 1:17 And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one's deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile,
...
1Pe 1:22 Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, (ESV)
"Obedient children;" "do not be;" "be;" "conduct yourselves;" "obedience to the truth;" "love one another." Do you count six commands as well, or did I miss one?
That's just from 1 chapter of Peter's writings. Here is what John says:
1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
1Jn 2:5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:
1Jn 2:6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
1Jn 2:7 Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard.
1Jn 2:8 At the same time, it is a new commandment that I am writing to you, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining.
...
1Jn 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. (ESV)
John clearly thinks he is writing commands and rules for believers, too. That's three apostles--Paul, Peter, and John--who think there are rules and commands for Christians to follow. James, Jesus's brother, also writes numerous commands for believers to follow. Jude, possibly an apostle, and the writer of Hebrews also mention rules and commands for believers to follow.
That means every book in the NT has rules and commands for believers to follow. It is a wonder then why you and Robert Pate don't think there are any. It could not be more clear. One has to ignore large portions of the NT if they (erroneously) think that it is to bring oneself under the law of Moses to follow those commands. To believe such is to commit serious errors in reasoning and not understand a plain reading of Scripture.
If that's what you believe, if that's how you want to live, then fine. Personally, I am living as a free person in Christ.
Galatians 5:1, "For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery".
Romans 7:6, "But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are enslaved in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the written code."
Frankly, I'm bored with this discussion. If you need to put yourself under some sort of law or written commands then go ahead. I am done trying to convince you that Christians are free people. If we are not, and we are part of the body of Christ, then Christ is also not free. QED
The Christian sacrament* of baptismal regeneration is required for the new covenant and salvation!
*this promise acts 2:38-39 is a sacred oath from God ez 36:25-27 and a sacred oath is a sacrament!
Initiation!!!
Faith & Baptism is the initiation of the new and eternal covenant!
You cannot enter on you’re own or by “faith alone”!
You cannot receive Christ or grace by “faith alone”!
“Accept Christ as you’re personal lord and savior” is fundamentalist tradition not found scripture!
Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Baptismal regeneration a new creation in Christ! 2 Cor 5:17
A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 (this promise)
No baptism no grace!
A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!
As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!
without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!
Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!
Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!
They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “
They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22
A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!
Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.
Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.
1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.
You cannot enter on you’re own or by faith alone!
2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Baptism!
God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!
Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2
Born again! Born from above!
'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,
Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.
St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13
Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16
1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)
Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!
Christ instituted the holy church for the salvation of all men, (repent and believe the gospel, with the institution of the sacraments to convey grace to sanctify souls!
Effects of faith & baptism!
Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!
“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!
Faith and baptism!
Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!
2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!
Is prayer required?
*this promise acts 2:38-39 is a sacred oath from God ez 36:25-27 and a sacred oath is a sacrament!
Initiation!!!
Faith & Baptism is the initiation of the new and eternal covenant!
You cannot enter on you’re own or by “faith alone”!
You cannot receive Christ or grace by “faith alone”!
“Accept Christ as you’re personal lord and savior” is fundamentalist tradition not found scripture!
Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Baptismal regeneration a new creation in Christ! 2 Cor 5:17
A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 (this promise)
No baptism no grace!
A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!
As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!
without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!
Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!
Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!
They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “
They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22
A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!
Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.
Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.
1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.
You cannot enter on you’re own or by faith alone!
2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Baptism!
God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!
Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2
Born again! Born from above!
'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,
Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.
St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13
Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16
1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)
Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!
Christ instituted the holy church for the salvation of all men, (repent and believe the gospel, with the institution of the sacraments to convey grace to sanctify souls!
Effects of faith & baptism!
Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!
“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!
Faith and baptism!
Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!
2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!
by faith and baptism we are united to Christ thru grace in communion with God and his saints
Is prayer required?
Robert Pate
Member
The only thing that baptism is going to do for you is get you wet. Holiness is not something within us because we are all sinners, Romans 3:10. Holiness is totally and completely outside of us and is only found in Jesus Christ. Righteousness is by faith alone, Romans 4:3. And then it is to our account, reserved for us in heaven, 1 Peter 1:4.
And we are the body of Christ.
1 Corinthians 12:12, "For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.
1 Corinthians 12:27, "Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it."
This is not some future status. Is/are is present tense.
How does one follow these commands? The Jews had many, many commands and they were unable to follow them. Why couldn't they obey? Were they somehow defective? Of course not!
One is able to follow any Biblical commands by one means only: the Holy Spirit. He is our guide. The unsaved person, someone without the Holy Spirit, is unable to abide by any commands. By contrast -- and please read this carefully -- someone who has received the Holy Spirit, i.e., has been born again and is in Christ, has no need for commands. The Holy Spirit, as I have written many times, is our guide. He will lead us into all truth. Written commands are rules are for those who are unable to follow the Spirit's guidance. Perhaps that describes you, perhaps not. Either way, it makes no difference.
I'm sure you're familiar with Psalm 23, but it bears repeating (in part)...
The Lord is my shepherd, I lack nothing.
He makes me lie down in green pastures,
he leads me beside quiet waters,
he refreshes my soul.
He guides me along the right paths
for his name’s sake.
Even though I walk
through the darkest valley,
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.
Do you see any rules and/or commands here? It is all about trusting God's leadership and provision; it is not about obedience to His commands. There is a very good reason that it is one of the most beloved parts of Scripture.
John 10:14-18 has a similar message: “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”
There are no commands here, no rules, nada. A shepherd doesn't rule his sheep! He guides them!!!
Firstly, you haven’t answered any questions I asked. Secondly, you haven’t even tried to address the numerous verses I gave which clearly give rules and commands for Christians, including the new ones you just quoted. Thirdly, you haven’t tried to understand the difference between the law of Moses and the other uses of “law” in the NT. Fourthly, I have never said Christians aren’t free, because they most certainly are. Fifthly, you seem to be bringing in the worldly idea of freedom (absolute freedom) into your interpretation of Scripture, rather than letting the biblical idea of freedom (within God-given bounds) speak for itself.
You are denying much of the NT in order to hold on to your position.
I am thrilled that you can count to 5!
1) I don't hace to answer your questions. By now it should be obvious that I won't. You don't control the conversation!
2) See #1, above.
3) I understand perfectly the difference between the law of Moses and the other uses of “law” in the NT. You don't understand the difference between law and freedom.
4) If you are subject to external law, you are not free to do as you please. Being in Christ means you're free.
5) I'm not interested in your interpretation of Scripture. "Freedom (within God-given bounds)" is something you've invented. One is either free or they're not. There is no such thing as partial freedom! LOL!!!
You are denying much of the NT in order to hold on to your position.
You should first notice that I only responded to your post #190. Then you should notice that I haven’t even tried to respond to it because I hadn’t even seen it yet. I’m not at home and don’t have a chance to reply yet.
That is exactly what I have been saying. The Holy Spirit guides us through the very rules and commands for believers that he inspired, giving us the ability to do so.
Firstly, this is all begging the question. Secondly, I have read it carefully, the numerous times you've posted it. So, I ask that you read carefully that it doesn't address the plain fact that there are numerous rules and commands in the NT for believers to follow.
Thirdly, you still have to clarify the contradiction of claiming that "someone who has received the Holy Spirit, i.e., has been born again and is in Christ, has no need for commands," with the fact that there are numerous commands written in the NT for those who are born again. Fourthly, you also have to clarify the contradiction of saying that "One is able to follow any Biblical commands by one means only: the Holy Spirit," and also saying "Written commands are rules are for those who are unable to follow the Spirit's guidance."
Fifthly, you not only have to address all the previous NT rules and commands for Christians, you have to also take these into account:
1Co 14:37 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord.
1Co 14:38 If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. (ESV)
2Th 3:4 And we have confidence in the Lord about you, that you are doing and will do the things that we command. ...
2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.
...
2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.
2Th 3:11 For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies.
2Th 3:12 Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living. (ESV)
1Ti 4:11 Command and teach these things. (ESV)
Phm 1:8 Accordingly, though I am bold enough in Christ to command you to do what is required, (ESV)
I really don't know why you keep arguing that there are no rules or commands for believers when I have given many verses that show there are. And here, Paul is very clearly commanding believers to do and believe those things that he has given as rules and commands for right Christian belief and behaviour.
This too is all begging the question.