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The War To End All Wars

journeyman said:
John is saying it,

These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. Jn.12:41

John cited Isa.53.

it is to one’s glory to overlook an offense. Pro.19:11
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Where in any of those verses did Isaiah write, “I saw” in reference to the crucified body of Christ? He said “I saw the Lord high and lifted up” which is definitely NOT the crucified Christ.

John wrote that Isaiah saw or understood what the Christ would be. He didn’t see the crucifixion with his eyes. That’s not “his glory” but his gory.

It is important to build up in the heart a love for truth. Attributing experiences to a writer they didn’t say they had is not loving truth. Isaiah did not see the crucified Christ. No one claimed they did. Prophets saw the future in symbolic pictures, not a movie.
 
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journeyman said:
Job and Isaiah saw our Lord this way,

And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; Rev.15:8

I think the smoke was from the burnt offering of himself.
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They were the only ones either. John also saw the glorified Lord and recorded it in the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
 
eddif said:
No it is a few verses ahead of the crucifixion.

eddif
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Please quote the description in Isaiah 53 that describe the “mangled body” of Jesus. Says e was pierced, crushed and oppressed. You ever seen a body part that was pierced? It’s not mangled. Ever see a person crushed? That usually mental anguish, which he experienced. Ever experienced oppression? That’s not mangled.
 
I will tell you why I opposed adding to the scripture what isn’t there. Besides adding, it makes the crucifixion central or isolates it as the main event affecting Isaiah who supposedly saw it. That’s isn’t that main event and Isaiah 53 describes his life and mission more than his death, which is barely mentioned in comparison. What he taught and exemplified was more significant. His life is more significant than his death. Isaiah wrote more about the kind of man he was, less about his suffering, which is right.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
Please quote the description in Isaiah 53 that describe the “mangled body” of Jesus. Says e was pierced, crushed and oppressed. You ever seen a body part that was pierced? It’s not mangled. Ever see a person crushed? That usually mental anguish, which he experienced. Ever experienced oppression? That’s not mangled.
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I do not know Hebrew, Greek, and English enough to fight a word battle.

eddif
 
eddif said:
I do not know Hebrew, Greek, and English enough to fight a word battle.

eddif
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We are writing in English. You said Isaiah saw Jesus mangled body and there is no evidence whatsoever that Isaiah saw any such thing. No descriptions of what he wrote support that statement.
 
eddif, we can move. I am uncomfortable with saying writers of the Bible experienced something they did not claim they did but we can wrap up the disagreement. You have said your view and I mine. Let us move on and remain brother and sister.
 
Isaiah 52:14 kjv
14. As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
15: So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

eddif
 
eddif said:
Isaiah 52:14 kjv
14. As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
15: So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

eddif
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Doesn’t say Isaiah saw his mangled body (which it wasn’t) which was your statement. Isaiah didn’t write that he saw him. He wrote about him. Isaiah didn’t write about his experience. It was teaching, not eye witness testimony.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
Where in any of those verses did Isaiah write, “I saw” in reference to the crucified body of Christ? He said “I saw the Lord high and lifted up” which is definitely NOT the crucified Christ.

John wrote that Isaiah saw or understood what the Christ would be. He didn’t see the crucifixion with his eyes. That’s not “his glory” but his gory.

It is important to build up in the heart a love for truth. Attributing experiences to a writer they didn’t say they had is not loving truth. Isaiah did not see the crucified Christ. No one claimed they did. Prophets saw the future in symbolic pictures, not a movie.
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I understand your point, but the sufferings of our Lord is a perfect demonstration of his love for those who didn't love him. That is the glory of him.
You're right that his glory is seen as majestic, as John in Revelation describes, but appearing that way to Job in the condition he was in, wouldn't make me think he was great. It would make me view God as a bully. You know, "Hey Lord, got another piece of broken pottery I can use to scrape the rest of my boils off?"
No my friend. Job was ashamed of himself at seeing how much more Christ suffered.
 
journeyman said:
I understand your point, but the sufferings of our Lord is a perfect demonstration of his love for those who didn't love him. That is the glory of him.
You're right that his glory is seen as majestic, as John in Revelation describes, but appearing that way to Job in the condition he was in, wouldn't make me think he was great. It would make me view God as a bully. You know, "Hey Lord, got another piece of broken pottery I can use to scrape the rest of my boils off?"
No my friend. Job was ashamed of himself at seeing how much more Christ suffered.
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I don’t see that as Jobs response to God at all but where did he see what Jesus would suffer?

Job saw the Majesty of God and repented. That is always the response of a man seeing the majesty of God. None of it has to
do with Christs suffering. That isn’t mentioned in Isaiah 6 or Job or Revelation.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
I don’t see that as Jobs response to God at all but where did he see what Jesus would suffer?

Job saw the Majesty of God and repented. That is always the response of a man seeing the majesty of God. None of it has to
do with Christs suffering. That isn’t mentioned in Isaiah 6 or Job or Revelation.
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I know that wasn't Jobs' response. I know it doesn't specify how God looked when he appeared to Job, or Isaiah.
You believe Job repented after seeing God the way John in Rev. saw him. I believe Job saw him in the aftermath of being attacked by satan. Both ways are assumptions.
I think as I do because if I was sitting on the ground with my skin peeling off, the result of someone (the devil) who hated me, seeing God as you assume he appeared wouldn't cause a repentant heart in me. Seeing him as I assume he appeared would and quite frankly did.
 
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