The War To End All Wars

[Dorothy Mae]

It wouldn't be possible to drink from the Spirit of Christ, unless they were following him.

They did not say that of themselves and yes it is. Hebrews says it possible to drink of theHeavenly and not follow. It’s called falling away.

Where is he who set his Holy Spirit among them, Isa.63:11

IOW, where is God? Agsin the prophets had the HS. Common man not. Pentecost made a difference, you know, and God said so.

Paul was using himself as an example of how we all are. We have no conception of what sin is apart from what God determines.

Atheists know what wrong is.

Otherwise, people are left to their own morality and how's that working out?

Morality is in every man, no exceptions.

Yes it was Gods' view,

by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal.2:16

And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified. Psa.143:2

The law was meant to be pointed at self, to produce humility, as we are all sinners in need of Gods mercy.

That is your view but not God’s. He wanted us not to murder not so that we know we are murders, but because it’s wrong, Your view doesn’t match His.

They formerly made up their own morality. Who knows...maybe they also thought abortion was ok.

No, Cain knew murder was wrong. People excuse their sin, but they know it’s sin. They don’t need the Bible to tell them murder is wrong.

I can tell you this. His mercy toward those who sinned against him held him on that cross and everyone who calls himself Christian better see the depth of that mercy.

Where is the bible verse that supports this?

 

[journeyman]

They did not say that of themselves and yes it is. Hebrews says it possible to drink of theHeavenly and not follow. It’s called falling away.

I agree, so many OT people will be saved just as we are now.

IOW, where is God? Agsin the prophets had the HS. Common man not. Pentecost made a difference, you know, and God said so.

It's why they're asking. They're asking because of the distress they're in. Distress which was caused by bondage...caused by sin. They're asking for the Holy Spirit to be returned to them...as he was in Moses' day.

Atheists know what wrong is.

No, they've heard what God says is wrong, but they have their own sense of wrong.

Morality is in every man, no exceptions.

Yes and it's acquired by learning and it's disappearing.

That is your view but not God’s. He wanted us not to murder not so that we know we are murders, but because it’s wrong, Your view doesn’t match His.

No, Cain knew murder was wrong. People excuse their sin, but they know it’s sin. They don’t need the Bible to tell them murder is wrong.

Then Pauls' statement about the more specific knowledge of good and evil contained in the law wouldn't be true.
In fact, the Messiahs' teaching on the law included condemnation for harboring sinful thoughts.

Where is the bible verse that supports this?

Right here,

having crucified.....exposed to public shame. Heb.6:6

and here,

trodden under foot the Son of God, Heb.10:29

Too many to count. Point is, I would have knocked their teeth out just for spitting on me.

when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from Him until an opportune time. Lk.4:13

And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Lk.22:44

I think the devil wanted Jesus to destroy his adversaries.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I agree, so many OT people will be saved just as we are now.

It's why they're asking. They're asking because of the distress they're in. Distress which was caused by bondage...caused by sin. They're asking for the Holy Spirit to be returned to them...as he was in Moses' day.

No, they've heard what God says is wrong, but they have their own sense of wrong.

Yes and it's acquired by learning and it's disappearing.

Agreed.

Then Pauls' statement about the more specific knowledge of good and evil contained in the law wouldn't be true.

I think you are mistaking what you think he meant and what he knew he meant. He also was speaking of himself. The fact that all societies know murder is wrong with no connection to the Bible tells us the law of God is not the source of knowing murder is wrong. So what did Paul mean? Certainly not that only those who read the law of God know that murder is wrong nor that it was written only so we might know that we are murderers (which we are not in any case.)

In fact, the Messiahs' teaching on the law included condemnation for harboring sinful thoughts.

Right here,

having crucified.....exposed to public shame. Heb.6:6

and here,

trodden under foot the Son of God, Heb.10:29

Too many to count. Point is, I would have knocked their teeth out just for spitting on me.

when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from Him until an opportune time. Lk.4:13

And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Lk.22:44

I think the devil wanted Jesus to destroy his adversaries.

This was the statement you made that I responded to, "I can tell you this. His mercy toward those who sinned against him held him on that cross and everyone who calls himself Christian better see the depth of that mercy."

I would not say that and do not see that those verses say that but in general I can see the above although I think the Enemy wanted any sin from Jesus. I would not have knocked out anyone's teeth but that is not me.

 

[journeyman]

Agreed.

I think you are mistaking what you think he meant and what he knew he meant. He also was speaking of himself.

Paul said,

I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Rom.7:9

This is no different from our 1st parents, learning good and evil.

The fact that all societies know murder is wrong with no connection to the Bible tells us the law of God is not the source of knowing murder is wrong. So what did Paul mean? Certainly not that only those who read the law of God know that murder is wrong nor that it was written only so we might know that we are murderers (which we are not in any case.)

But sis, there is no society not connected to the Bible, because we're all related to Adam and Eve.

This was the statement you made that I responded to, "I can tell you this. His mercy toward those who sinned against him held him on that cross and everyone who calls himself Christian better see the depth of that mercy."

I would not say that and do not see that those verses say that but in general I can see the above although I think the Enemy wanted any sin from Jesus. I would not have knocked out anyone's teeth but that is not me.

I was talking about before I came to know him. If they abused my child the way Jesus was abused, I'd be armed with a flame thrower.

Christ withheld his wrath against people who greatly sinned against him.
Thank you Lord Jesus.

 

[eddif]

journeyman Dorothy Mae
Before the law:
Early Man knew right from wrong by the punishment he received.
….,
During the Law of Moses a Jew knew the law because the Law defined sin.
…..
The gentiles knew sin because they knew Jews.
…….
At Pentecost the law was put in hearts and minds of those who believe.

eddif

 

[ezrider]

Before the law:
Early Man knew right from wrong by the punishment he received.

Before the law..... Man lived by faith

Before the law.... hold that thought.... before Adam partook of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The story begins with the first man Adam (not Moses)... the story ends with the second man Adam, Christ.


But where does our story begin? As the first man Adam who eats the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil...... the law..... the scriptures..... from whence cometh our knowledge of good and evil, of death and sin. Knowledge that they might becomes as god, judging good and evil. For every Adam, there is an Eve, for it is most often the woman first who encourages the man to eat of the fruit of the scriptures...... for its words are desirable, words to make you wise.

And now what do we see in this day and age....? Every man and his brother with a bible in their hands...... empowered with the knowledge of good and evil...... possessive of their knowledge.... accusing one another daily.... speaking evil of things they no not..... proclaiming their judgements..... showing themselves that they are god. These no not the second man Adam.

At Pentecost the law was put in hearts and minds of those who believe.

I tend to believe at Pentecost, it was proclaimed that the words of the book were sealed.

Acts 2:14-18
But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Isaiah 29:8-11
It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth;
but he awaketh, and his soul is empty:
or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh;
but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite:
so shall the multitude of all the nations be,
that fight against mount Zion.
Stay yourselves, and wonder;
cry ye out, and cry:
they are drunken, but not with wine;
they stagger, but not with strong drink.
For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep,
and hath closed your eyes:
the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed,
which men deliver to one that is learned,
saying, Read this, I pray thee:
and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:



I would recommend reading the rest of Isaiah 29.

 

[ezrider]

Huh?

I don’t possess a plowshare.

Never mind... I'll just continue to sit right here under my vine and under my fig tree!

You are deeply wrong. They were absolutely not allowed to worship demons in Israel. It was forbidden.

The question wasn't about foreigners having to follow the law in the time of Israel. It was about how WE treat the foreigners coming across our southern border. WE don't live under the Mosaic Laws and the Old covenant and a Nation. We have a Constitution as our guiding principles. It does not prohibit the free exercise of ones religion, nor prohibits them from worshipping whatever god they want.

If we are to say that God's laws are written on our hearts, then there really aught be no resistance to the thought of the immigrant in the land being treated equally under the same laws of the land provided under the Constitution.

 

[eddif]

Before the law..... Man lived by faith

Before the law.... hold that thought.... before Adam partook of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The story begins with the first man Adam (not Moses)... the story ends with the second man Adam, Christ.


But where does our story begin? As the first man Adam who eats the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil...... the law..... the scriptures..... from whence cometh our knowledge of good and evil, of death and sin. Knowledge that they might becomes as god, judging good and evil. For every Adam, there is an Eve, for it is most often the woman first who encourages the man to eat of the fruit of the scriptures...... for its words are desirable, words to make you wise.

And now what do we see in this day and age....? Every man and his brother with a bible in their hands...... empowered with the knowledge of good and evil...... possessive of their knowledge.... accusing one another daily.... speaking evil of things they no not..... proclaiming their judgements..... showing themselves that they are god. These no not the second man Adam.





I tend to believe at Pentecost, it was proclaimed that the words of the book were sealed.

Acts 2:14-18
But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Isaiah 29:8-11
It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth;
but he awaketh, and his soul is empty:
or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh;
but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite:
so shall the multitude of all the nations be,
that fight against mount Zion.
Stay yourselves, and wonder;
cry ye out, and cry:
they are drunken, but not with wine;
they stagger, but not with strong drink.
For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep,
and hath closed your eyes:
the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed,
which men deliver to one that is learned,
saying, Read this, I pray thee:
and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:



I would recommend reading the rest of Isaiah 29.

Let me see

Hebrews 20;16 kjv
16. "This is the covenant that I will make with them, after those days, says theLord, putting My Laws into their hearts, and I will inscribe them into their mind,"
17. And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

This is the same promise the prophets right before the 400 years of silence spoke.

This is not the law on tablets of stone, but written on a new heart of flesh.

eddif

 

[eddif]

Instead of receiving the spirit of the Law, do you wish to justify yourself before the law?

Huh?

This about the two forms of the law.

One written on tablets of stone.

The other written on the new heart of flesh.

The stone law is about physical food.

The new heart and mind law is about
Living on the words of God.

eddif

 

[jasonc]

The earthquakes now are generally on fault lines.

The prophecy is for earthquakes in various places.

eddif

There isn't a comparison .

Simply put ,see a mountain ,know that a fault line is near it . Sometimes these lie dormant and then come back to life .

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Never mind... I'll just continue to sit right here under my vine and under my fig tree!

That’s a good place to be.

The question wasn't about foreigners having to follow the law in the time of Israel. It was about how WE treat the foreigners coming across our southern border.

Then do NOT use the open border Israel had a standard if you’re only going to cherry pick out the bits you like. Anyone moving into ancient Israel had to adopt the customs and beliefs of the Israelies no compromise. There was a price to pay to move in and any nation that wants to remain a nation must have that policy. No nation can remain as it is and feed and house immigrants who refuse to obey the laws.

WE don't live under the Mosaic Laws and the Old covenant and a Nation. We have a Constitution as our guiding principles. It does not prohibit the free exercise of ones religion, nor prohibits them from worshipping whatever god they want.

Don’t use ancient Israel as an example if you won’t take all of it.

If we are to say that God's laws are written on our hearts, then there really aught be no resistance to the thought of the immigrant in the land being treated equally under the same laws of the land provided under the Constitution.

If they are there illegally then they are not willing to abide by the law per definition.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

journeyman Dorothy Mae
Before the law:
Early Man knew right from wrong by the punishment he received.

Where does that quote come from? Every man has a conscience that tells him right from wrong before any punishment. The law’s punishment is limited.

….,
During the Law of Moses a Jew knew the law because the Law defined sin.

The conscience also does and better. Only foolish nations try to outlaw hate, for example.

…..
The gentiles knew sin because they knew Jews.
…….

Not so, they had “a law unto themselves” because everyone has a conscience. Most Gentiles in the world never heard of the Jews then. It’s not just the literate who know right from wrong.

At Pentecost the law was put in hearts and minds of those who believe.

No, it was always there. The ability to obey it was available.

eddif

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Paul said,

I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Rom.7:9

First, the law was there before he was born. Second, he is speaking from personal experience not general. The law wasn’t written just so he personally could know he was a sinner.

This is no different from our 1st parents, learning good and evil.

Adam and Eve were sinless. That is really different. We don’t repeat that pattern.

But sis, there is no society not connected to the Bible, because we're all related to Adam and Eve.

If they don’t know, they aren’t connected, but your phrasing it touched me. Thanks bro.

I was talking about before I came to know him. If they abused my child the way Jesus was abused, I'd be armed with a flame thrower.

Ah, my mistake. Thanks.

Christ withheld his wrath against people who greatly sinned against him.
Thank you Lord Jesus.

Well, he told them he was coming back to “get them” so justice was eventually done to them who hadn’t repented, but at the moment yes.

I once asked the Father how it was for Him at the crucifixion. His answer I cannot tell you, but I can assure you it wasn’t wrath or a relief from wrath and that it was as far away from wrath “being satisfied” as one can get.

The Devil experienced his wrath being satisfied at the crucifixion. He was quite satisfied…..for a short time then his worse nightmare became reality.

 

[ezrider]

Then do NOT use the open border Israel had a standard if you’re only going to cherry pick out the bits you like. Anyone moving into ancient Israel had to adopt the customs and beliefs of the Israelies no compromise. There was a price to pay to move in and any nation that wants to remain a nation must have that policy. No nation can remain as it is and feed and house immigrants who refuse to obey the laws.

Don’t use ancient Israel as an example if you won’t take all of it.

I am sorry that you do not understand how to take the spirit of the law and allow it to be written on your heart. What good are the scriptures to you if you can not learn from the moral of the story?

 

[eddif]

Where does that quote come from? Every man has a conscience that tells him right from wrong before any punishment. The law’s punishment is limited.

The conscience also does and better. Only foolish nations try to outlaw hate, for example.

Not so, they had “a law unto themselves” because everyone has a conscience. Most Gentiles in the world never heard of the Jews then. It’s not just the literate who know right from wrong.

No, it was always there. The ability to obey it was available.

Conscience is awareness.
Adam was told what he could eat and what he could not eat. There was no Bible at the time.
So
Adam did not know right from wrong as a natural gift from birth.

Adam and Eve had no inner conscience to guide them. Satan could trick them.
You constantly say all men know right from wrong. Show me Adam and Eve demonstrating conscience guiding their life.
First man (Adam and Eve) seem to not know right from wrong till punishment came. Again no written instructions, and no inner conscience. No ability to self regulate their behavior.

That condition will basically exist till Pentecost. At Pentecost the law
(Not the law written in stone)but of understanding right from wrong appears for the first time in sons and daughters.

You often say all men have a conscience. But God had a conscience, prophets somewhat had a conscience, but generally speaking just did what their carnal mind said to do (Satan directing them).

You find a very few men have a conscience in the whole Bible before Pentecost. King David was one, but he learned through punishment from God.

You show me where fifty men out of millions of people had a wonderful conscience from a carnal born guide and I will grant you a 1 out of a thousand conscience, and that is a scripture verse you should be able to find.

eddif

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Conscience is awareness.
Adam was told what he could eat and what he could not eat. There was no Bible at the time.

There was no Bible for millennia and there still is no bible for many. Do you think that means they don’t know moral right from wrong? I assure you they do.

So
Adam did not know right from wrong as a natural gift from birth.

He knew enough to know not to do what he did. God held him accountable and God is not unjust.

Adam and Eve had no inner conscience to guide them. Satan could trick them.

They knew what they were not to do and they desired to be tricked and do the forbidden.

You constantly say all men know right from wrong.

That’s because they do. Why do you think people don’t?

Show me Adam and Eve demonstrating conscience guiding their life.

They knew what they weren’t to do and did NOT offer God the excuse you suggest. It never occurred to them to do so as it’s not true. One cannot lie to God.

First man (Adam and Eve) seem to not know right from wrong till punishment came.

Wrong. Eve told the serpent what she wasn’t to do. No punishment inflicted yet. Still she knew.

Again no written instructions, and no inner conscience. No ability to self regulate their behavior.

The description of her choosing wrong is in sufficient detail to see that she was incomplete control of her self generated behavior. Adam too. “I couldn’t control my behavior” was not an excuse offered.

That condition will basically exist till Pentecost. At Pentecost the law
(Not the law written in stone)but of understanding right from wrong appears for the first time in sons and daughters.

God held everyone responsible for their behavior.

You often say all men have a conscience. But God had a conscience, prophets somewhat had a conscience, but generally speaking just did what their carnal mind said to do (Satan directing them).

No, one can see many examples of men doing what is right and refusing evil.

You find a very few men have a conscience in the whole Bible before Pentecost. King David was one, but he learned through punishment from God.

Conscious is in all men and you don’t see them only aware of wrong AFTER punishment. You’ll find all men had a conscience in the OT.

You show me where fifty men out of millions of people had a wonderful conscience from a carnal born guide and I will grant you a 1 out of a thousand conscience, and that is a scripture verse you should be able to find.

eddif

Huh? If you ask me to find a bible verse that says all men have 2 eyes, or ten toes or you’ll refuse to believe they did before Pentecost, how could I answer?

This is really basic christian thought but when Adam and Eve gained the knowledge of good and evil, this was passed onto to ALL generations. No one said it was so anymore than anyone wrote all humans have ten toes. It is nevertheless true.

 

[eddif]

There was no Bible for millennia and there still is no bible for many. Do you think that means they don’t know moral right from wrong? I assure you they do.

He knew enough to know not to do what he did. God held him accountable and God is not unjust.

They knew what they were not to do and they desired to be tricked and do the forbidden.

That’s because they do. Why do you think people don’t?

They knew what they weren’t to do and did NOT offer God the excuse you suggest. It never occurred to them to do so as it’s not true. One cannot lie to God.

Wrong. Eve told the serpent what she wasn’t to do. No punishment inflicted yet. Still she knew.

The description of her choosing wrong is in sufficient detail to see that she was incomplete control of her self generated behavior. Adam too. “I couldn’t control my behavior” was not an excuse offered.

God held everyone responsible for their behavior.

No, one can see many examples of men doing what is right and refusing evil.

Conscious is in all men and you don’t see them only aware of wrong AFTER punishment. You’ll find all men had a conscience in the OT.

Huh? If you ask me to find a bible verse that says all men have 2 eyes, or ten toes or you’ll refuse to believe they did before Pentecost, how could I answer?

This is really basic christian thought but when Adam and Eve gained the knowledge of good and evil, this was passed onto to ALL generations. No one said it was so anymore than anyone wrote all humans have ten toes. It is nevertheless true.

Before I start into scriptures. I want to assure you I enjoy the subject we are discussing. I totally want to continue the discussion. You can fuss at me all you want to. At any time you want me to shut up I will not talk to you. Might talk to someone else, but I can leave you out of the loop.

This subject can be a war. I do not want a war.

eddif

 

[journeyman]

First, the law was there before he was born.

Yes, he learned it.

Second, he is speaking from personal experience not general. The law wasn’t written just so he personally could know he was a sinner.

It was written so not only Jews would know, but so the whole world would come to know,

so that the trespass might increase Rom.5:20
in order that sin might be recognized as sin Rom.7:13

Adam and Eve were sinless. That is really different. We don’t repeat that pattern.

I believe all babies are born sinless. I don't believe sin is transfered from our parents (for lack of better wording) by some kind of dna. It comes from knowledge.

If they don’t know, they aren’t connected, but your phrasing it touched me. Thanks bro.

They don't know. There are many cultures with different tales of creation, but people truly originated from Adam and Eve and our ancestors learned good and evil from them.

Well, he told them he was coming back to “get them” so justice was eventually done to them who hadn’t repented, but at the moment yes.

I once asked the Father how it was for Him at the crucifixion. His answer I cannot tell you, but I can assure you it wasn’t wrath or a relief from wrath and that it was as far away from wrath “being satisfied” as one can get.

I believe the only thing God was pleased about was the mercy his Son showed toward his enemies. Jesus could have obliterated them in the blink of an eye.

The Devil experienced his wrath being satisfied at the crucifixion. He was quite satisfied…..for a short time then his worse nightmare became reality.

I think the devil knew what would happen and just didn't care. That's one thing that puzzles me. You would have to be insane not to be sorry for causing great harm to others. The war in Heaven matches the war on earth between God and Satan, until it comes to repentance being available to sinning angels.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes, he learned it.

It was written so not only Jews would know, but so the whole world would come to know,

Well, most of the world did not know so I have some doubts as to that being the whole purpose, but, of course, God said that the nations of the world might see what a righteous nation looks like. That was the purpose of the law as well and internal peace, freedom and love.

so that the trespass might increase Rom.5:20

Well, it is more likely that awareness of trespass. God did not give the law so that sin would increase. The enemy lies sin to increase, not God.

in order that sin might be recognized as sin Rom.7:13

Yes, that is it.

I believe all babies are born sinless. I don't believe sin is transfered from our parents (for lack of better wording) by some kind of dna. It comes from knowledge.

I agree although sin does not come from knowledge according to the Bible. We sin because we want and do not have. Desire breeds sin, not knowledge.

They don't know. There are many cultures with different tales of creation, but people truly originated from Adam and Eve and our ancestors learned good and evil from them.

Again, the knowledge of moral right and wrong in inborn and comes to the awareness as children approach a certain age. It cannot be taught.

 

[journeyman]

Well, most of the world did not know so I have some doubts as to that being the whole purpose, but, of course, God said that the nations of the world might see what a righteous nation looks like. That was the purpose of the law as well and internal peace, freedom and love.

Yes, but from the perspective of humility, which the law teaches us through our own unrighteousness,

no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. Rom.3:20

Well, it is more likely that awareness of trespass. God did not give the law so that sin would increase. The enemy lies sin to increase, not God.

I agree.

Yes, that is it.

I agree although sin does not come from knowledge according to the Bible. We sin because we want and do not have. Desire breeds sin, not knowledge.

Again, the knowledge of moral right and wrong in inborn and comes to the awareness as children approach a certain age. It cannot be taught.

I'm not sure a child left to himself would develope a true sense of right and wrong. We are to train our children.