The week of the Passion

[Goinheix]

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

I am glad to see that you can not prove me wrong. Jesus were crucified Thursday Nisan 20th

 

[reba]

I am glad to see that you can not prove me wrong. Jesus were crucified Thursday Nisan 20th

Well good ! I was never trying to prove any one wrong... The date of His resurrection is not as important to me as the fact He is Risen

God sent his son
They called him Jesus
He came to love
Heal and forgive
He lived and died
To buy my pardon
An empty grave
Is there to prove
My Savior lives

(Chorus)
Because he lives
I can face tomorrow
Because he lives
All fear is gone
Because I know
He holds the future
And life is worth the living
Just because he lives

Lyrics from <a href="http://www.elyrics.net">eLyrics.net</a>

 

[Goinheix]

OK
How do you know for sure that Christ was risen? Probably because you read it in the Gospels. Are those Gospels reliable? Those Gospels are telling you way too many datail; and those details seems to be all contradictories. Do you still trust your eternal life in an acount that you found full of contradictions? This is why it is of supreme necesity for us to undo all those contradictions. And by undoing all contradictions and answering all questions we discover that Jesus were crucified the 20th.

 

[farouk]

OK
How do you know for sure that Christ was risen? Probably because you read it in the Gospels. Are those Gospels reliable? Those Gospels are telling you way too many datail; and those details seems to be all contradictories. Do you still trust your eternal life in an acount that you found full of contradictions? This is why it is of supreme necesity for us to undo all those contradictions. And by undoing all contradictions and answering all questions we discover that Jesus were crucified the 20th.

'If Christ be not risen, ye are yet in your sins,... your faith is vain' (1 Corinthians 15).

 

[Sparkey]

There are some foolish attempts by individuals that have tried to stop the promise of the resurrection, made by God to the Believer.

Let's dial back a bit and consider another part of the "Week of Passion". Turn to look at what Pontius Pilot saw as the leaders of the Jews tried to prevent God from performing all that He had promised. He listened to the concern of the authorities who came as seen in Matthew 27:62-66 saying (paraphrased), "Now rumor has it, that this Jesus, this so-called Messiah, is supposed to rise again from the dead. So please, allow us to have a 'watch' of Roman soldiers standing sentry in front of the tomb." And Pontius Pilot, with this great phrase, declared, "You have a watch," (verse 65 of chapter 27), "Go your way and make it as sure as you can."

I think there is an element of cynicism in Pilot's voice. It's like he is saying, "Hehehe... good luck... Take your soldiers, good luck with you, make it as sure as you can." Because Pilot was aware that he was being caught up in event that were far transcending normalcy. Something was happening here. His wife had just warned him of a dream that she had. In examining Jesus, he was haunted and he said, "I find no fault with him." And when he wrote, "King of the Jews" over his head, the authorities said, "Don't write that, say "He claims to be king of the Jews," and Pilot said, "What I have written, I have written."

You sense in this a turmoil in Pontius Pilot. A questioning. And I believe that because of that he very likely said, "Make it as sure as you can," in a cynical tone of voice as if to say, "good luck with that," as one might do today.

Now we turn to chapter 28 with Jesus in the tomb. Three days later, at the end of the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, mentioned in chapter 27 who was the mother of James and Joses. Mary Magdalene and the other Mary come that Sunday morning to see the sepulchre.


They are not coming in a spirit of expectancy. Nor a vibrancy of faith. They are coming to spice the corpse. To show affection to the one they appreciated, whom they assumed, obviously, would still be there. They came on that first day of the week and you know what they are going to discover. Any by the way, people often say, why do you Christians worship on Sunday... we could take a quick look at the early church in the Book of acts and see how they adopted the first day of the week in celebration, in commemoration, in honor of the Resurrection of Christ, Jesus. For now we are content as that is a topic for a different thread. Still, what day we worship on and why does speak to the fact that Jesus was raised on the first day of the week. Then, after a brief mention of this, we continue to look at the subject of this thread, the Week of Passion.


As they went to the grave, "Behold," verse 2, "there was a great earthquake." Talk about getting shook up, right? The earth quaked. It did not quake because it was Sunday, but perhaps the quake came in response to the Word of God and the prophecy that is contained in the book of Jonah, the prophecy that Jesus spoke of, the three days and the three nights only that he would be held. I've been in several earthquakes as I live on the rim of fire, near the Pacific Ocean where the US meets Canada. And I can remember the large earthquake that happened here back in 1965. It only measured 6.5 magnitude but it felt much larger. As the earth rolled I can remember getting tossed about. It happened during the day so I could not see the stars but as I searched the sky for any point of stable reference the sun was in my view. That was the only thing that wasn't moving in my now shaky world. That point of reference in the heavens became my stability during the time of the quake and helped me keep my feet underneath me.


There is an insight there. If you look around in this shaky world of today you will need a fixed reference point to hold onto and we have one. The bright and morning star of Christ, Jesus. It is him that we cling to, Him that the earth could not, no, not even death could hold and yet it is Him who continues and in whom we remain.


He is RISEN! Remain in Him.

 

[Goinheix]

OK
How do you know for sure that Christ was risen? Probably because you read it in the Gospels. Are those Gospels reliable? Those Gospels are telling you way too many datail; and those details seems to be all contradictories. Do you still trust your eternal life in an acount that you found full of contradictions? This is why it is of supreme necesity for us to undo all those contradictions. And by undoing all contradictions and answering all questions we discover that Jesus were crucified the 20th.

'If Christ be not risen, ye are yet in your sins,... your faith is vain' (1 Corinthians 15).

Thanks a lot. If we can not undo the contradictions of the dead and resurrection of Christ, then we can not be sure of our salavtion. It is priority one to solve those contradictions. And all contradictions desapear if we understand that Jesus was crucified Nisan 20th.

 

[Goinheix]

Now we turn to chapter 28 with Jesus in the tomb. Three days later, at the end of the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, mentioned in chapter 27 who was the mother of James and Joses. Mary Magdalene and the other Mary come that Sunday morning to see the sepulchre.

NO.
Matthew 28 is not saying that

New International Version (©2011)
After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
New Living Translation (©2007)
Early on Sunday morning, as the new day was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went out to visit the tomb.
English Standard Version (©2001)
Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
After the Sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to view the tomb.
International Standard Version (©2012)
After the Sabbaths, around dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to take a look at the burial site.
NET Bible (©2006)
Now after the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
But on the eve of the Sabbath, when the first of the week was dawning, Maryam Magdalitha and the other Maryam came to see the tomb.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
After the day of worship, as the sun rose Sunday morning, Mary from Magdala and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
At the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher.
American King James Version
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher.
American Standard Version
Now late on the sabbath day, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
Douay-Rheims Bible
AND in the end of the sabbath, when it began to dawn towards the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalen and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre.
Darby Bible Translation
Now late on sabbath, as it was the dusk of the next day after sabbath, came Mary of Magdala and the other Mary to look at the sepulchre.
English Revised Version
Now late on the sabbath day, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
Webster's Bible Translation
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn towards the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary to see the sepulcher.
Weymouth New Testament
After the Sabbath, in the early dawn of the first day of the week, Mary of Magdala and the other Mary came to see the sepulchre.
World English Bible
Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb.Young's Literal Translation
And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

 

[Sparkey]

Now we turn to chapter 28 with Jesus in the tomb. Three days later, at the end of the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, mentioned in chapter 27 who was the mother of James and Joses. Mary Magdalene and the other Mary come that Sunday morning to see the sepulchre.

NO.
Matthew 28 is not saying that

Oh? Per your quote:

English Standard Version (©2001): "Early on Sunday morning, as the new day was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went out to visit the tomb."

Now what did I say it said, hmmm? "as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week (which is the same as saying "as the new day was dawning"), came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary.

Do you dispute that it was the First day of the Week? If not, do you dispute that it was Sunday? Or that it was morning? Are you in doubt of what day we were speaking of or that it was a Sabbath day? I don't understand your "No," unless you speak.

In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn towards the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary to see the sepulcher.

"After the Sabbaths, around dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to take a look at the burial site."

 

[Goinheix]

Oh? Per your quote:

Now what did I say it said, hmmm? "as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week (which is the same as saying "as the new day was dawning"), came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary.

Do you dispute that it was the First day of the Week? If not, do you dispute that it was Sunday? Or that it was morning? Are you in doubt of what day we were speaking of or that it was a Sabbath day? I don't understand your "No," unless you speak.

In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn towards the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary to see the sepulcher.

"After the Sabbaths, around dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to take a look at the burial site."

The key word is "opsi". Opsi is the first part of the night. In round numbers is from 1800 to 2100

 

[Sparkey]

The key word is "opsi". Opsi is the first part of the night. In round numbers is from 1800 to 2100

Okay, thank you. I'll check that out. I do love to learn new stuff. Is this word Greek? Is it in the Bible, in the passage we are quoting from Matthew? Never-mind, I'll go look.

In the meantime, check out Matthew 27. There were other resurrections when Jesus rose too.
[Mat 27:51-54 KJV] 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

 

[reba]

OK
How do you know for sure that Christ was risen? Probably because you read it in the Gospels. Are those Gospels reliable? Those Gospels are telling you way too many datail; and those details seems to be all contradictories. Do you still trust your eternal life in an acount that you found full of contradictions? This is why it is of supreme necesity for us to undo all those contradictions. And by undoing all contradictions and answering all questions we discover that Jesus were crucified the 20th.

Those Gospels are the Word of God . I have faith. Simple faith He is my Lord and Saviour!

 

[Sparkey]

ὀψέ
OPSE:
Lexicon :: Strong's G3796 - opse

• Transliteration: opse
• Pronunciation: o-pse' (Key)
• Part of Speech: verb
• Root Word (Etymology): From the same as ὀπίσω (G3694) (through the idea of backwardness); (adverbially) late in the day

Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry; Outline of Biblical Usage

• after a long time, long after, late
• late in the day, i.e. at evening
• the sabbath having just passed, after the sabbath
• at the early dawn of the first day of the week

KJV Translation Count — Total: 3x
The KJV translates Strongs G3796 in the following manner: in the end (1x), even (1x), at even (1x).
Thayer's Greek Lexicon

Concordance Results Using KJV
Strong's Number G3796 matches the Greek ὀψέ (opse),
which occurs 3 times in 3 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

Mat 28:1
In the end G3796 of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Mark 11:19
And when even G3796 was come, he went out of the city.

Mark 13:35
Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, G3796 or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

The key word is "opsi". Opsi is the first part of the night. In round numbers is from 1800 to 2100

My findings: The word can not mean "after".

I know you tried to correct me, but did I say "after"?? Let's see:

Now we turn to chapter 28 with Jesus in the tomb. Three days later, at the end of the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, mentioned in chapter 27 who was the mother of James and Joses. Mary Magdalene and the other Mary come that Sunday morning to see the sepulchre.

Not to put too fine of a point on the whole matter, but I did not say "after". What I said was in line with what the translators have said, "At the end of the Sabbath," and "as it began to dawn." Seems that you would like to move this time backward a bit so that it conforms to your period of time relating to at least three hours before the morning, during what might be called "the even" and not the morning. That word, Lexicon :: Strong's G2020 - epiphōskō ἐπιφώσκω is "as it began to dawn," meaning the time of the cock's crow. It is the break of daylight. It is the same word used in [Luk 23:54 KJV] 54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on, where "drew on" is epiphōskō.

Can you agree that one word is much more specific, that the first word, "opse" can not be used to mean "after" while the second word, used in conjunction with the first gives the picture of the crack of dawn. If no? I am curious to hear your proofs.

 

[Goinheix]

Opse in bold

Matthew 28:1In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
Mark 11:19And when even was come, he went out of the city.
Mark 13:35Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning

The four parts of the night time:
Even = opse = 18 to 21
Midnight = 21 to 24
Cockcrowing = 00 to 03
Morning = 03 to 06

 

[Sparkey]

I may have been typing while you replied. Here again, in case you missed it.

Not to put too fine of a point on the whole matter, but I did not say "after". What I said was in line with what the translators have said, "At the end of the Sabbath," and "as it began to dawn." Seems that you would like to move this time backward a bit so that it conforms to your period of time relating to at least three hours before the morning, during what might be called "the even" and not the morning. That word, Lexicon :: Strong's G2020 - epiphōskō ἐπιφώσκω is "as it began to dawn," meaning the time of the cock's crow. It is the break of daylight. It is the same word used in [Luk 23:54 KJV] 54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on, where "drew on" is epiphōskō.

Can you agree that one word is much more specific, that the first word, "opse" can not be used to mean "after" while the second word, used in conjunction with the first gives the picture of the crack of dawn. If no? I am curious to hear your proofs.

 

[Goinheix]

I may have been typing while you replied. Here again, in case you missed it.

Not to put too fine of a point on the whole matter, but I did not say "after". What I said was in line with what the translators have said, "At the end of the Sabbath," and "as it began to dawn." Seems that you would like to move this time backward a bit so that it conforms to your period of time relating to at least three hours before the morning, during what might be called "the even" and not the morning. That word, Lexicon :: Strong's G2020 - epiphōskō ἐπιφώσκω is "as it began to dawn," meaning the time of the cock's crow. It is the break of daylight. It is the same word used in [Luk 23:54 KJV] 54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on, where "drew on" is epiphōskō.

Can you agree that one word is much more specific, that the first word, "opse" can not be used to mean "after" while the second word, used in conjunction with the first gives the picture of the crack of dawn. If no? I am curious to hear your proofs.

I have a general desapointment with the most of the translations. And I am not refering to this verse in specific. The word "opse" do not mean "after" and there is not a necesary to point spome other greek word meaning "after". Opse do no mean after; period.

Opse mean "late". But pay atention. What it measn "cock crowing"? Does it mean a rooster singing? Yes it does. Nevertheless, "cockcrowing" is the name of one part of the night time. And opse=late is also the name of one part of the night time.

for us in spanish is more easy to understand. "Tarde" is late. When is yesterday tarde or today tarde? If the day (our day) ends by midnight... when is tarde? Tarde is part of the day, from 1200 to 1800. Similar is "mañana" wich means tomorrow. Now supese you askme when this or that and I replay mañana. Is it tomorrow? No. Is not even in any future but in the past. Mañana is the morning.

Tarde and mañana are parts of the day as opse and cockcrowing are part of the night.

 

[Sparkey]

Okay, but I am only literate in English. What I understand you to say can be drawn with a picture. One sec, will be right back.
Remember, I'm checking first to understand you. I will say what I think you mean, and then let you correct me, please?

Okay, here's the picture:

And here's the part that I'm having difficulty with. When you say,
Even = opse = 18 to 21
Midnight = 21 to 24
Cockcrowing = 00 to 03
Morning = 03 to 06

It looks like you're saying that roosters don't crow at dawn, that they start crowing at "midnight" or military time of 0:00, and stop crowing at 3:00 am in the morning. If I take the word "midnight" to have it's English meaning, the dividing point that comes in the middle of the night, where are we in our discussion about the Jewish custom? Please understand that I'm not trying to be difficult, but instead trying to grasp ideas that are difficult to me.

 

[Goinheix]

Are you done.

Cockcrowing is a name. Cockcrowing is not a cock crowing. I dont care at what time cocks crow. Cockcrowing is the name of part of the night time.
Same with midnight. Midnight is not the midle of the night. Midnight is a name. You can not understand midnight as the oposite to noon. Cockcrowing is not a cock crowing and midnight is not the mid of the night.
Midnigth is the name for 21 to 24, and cockcrowing is the name for 00 to 03.
Also with mornig. You probably visualice the morning, from 06 to 12. Morning is the name of the last part of the night: 03 to 06.
finaly late (opse). Late does not mean that is late. Late is the name of 18 to 21.

 

[Goinheix]

We are advancing quite much. In future posts we will discuss of Peter denaying Jesus. Those 3 denayals happens in two cockcrowing. Jesus was talking not of two cocks crowings, but of two cockcrowings. Peter didn not denay Jesus in one night, but along two consecutives night, two cockcrowings.

 

[Sparkey]

Are you done.

I like to take time and chew on the bone, to be able to understand. Pardon my being slow here, the ideas are familiar, but they are not used by me in my normal day to day use. Here's another picture that was drawn. Hopefully it shows what you are saying better than what I tried to draw. If that is not the case, point to the flaw, please?

The problem that I see is that this picture seems to show "morning" and "evening" as six (6) hour periods. I don't know if it helps or not.

I downloaded it from "Scriptures and Sacred Books" and need to say that to give proper credit.

 

[Goinheix]

Are you done?

I like to take time and chew on the bone, to be able to understand. Pardon my being slow here, the ideas are familiar, but they are not used by me in my normal day to day use. Here's another picture that was drawn. Hopefully it shows what you are saying better than what I tried to draw. If that is not the case, point to the flaw, please?

I downloaded it from "Scriptures and Sacred Books" and need to say that to give proper credit.

The drawing is almost perfect. The NT use cockcrow instead of roostercrow. And it is "late" (opse) instead of evening.