The week of the Passion

[Sparkey]

Okay, I think I understand you.
Thanks for your patience.

 

[Sparkey]

I still have trouble understanding how to reconcile the Scripture found in Matthew 28:1 with what you are teaching me. Did you leave something out, maybe?

In the end (ὀψέ opse) [which can not, may not, mean "after" the sabbath, but means toward the end or at the ending time of]

of the sabbath, σάββατον sabbaton

as it began to dawn (ἐπιφώσκω epiphōskō) [which can only mean at the first light of the dawn]

toward (εἰς eis) the first (μία mia) day of the week, (σάββατον sabbaton)

came (ἔρχομαι erchomai) Mary (Μαρία Maria)...

Let me get the Westcott and Hort transliteration from my bedroom... one moment... OH! there is one online now... here we go: Check this out, please.
Westcott & Hort GNT - Literal Translation Greek & English < < Matthew 28 > > Interlinear

28:1 Ὀψὲ "Of-late" δὲ "moreover" σαββάτων, "of-sabbaths" τῇ "unto-the-one" ἐπιφωσκούσῃ "unto-shining-upon" εἰς "into" μίαν "to-one" σαββάτων, "of-sabbaths" ἦλθεν "it-had-came," Μαρία "a-Maria" ἡ "the-one" Μαγδαληνὴ "a-Magdalene" καὶ "and" ἡ "the-one" ἄλλη "other" Μαρία "a-Maria," θεωρῆσαι "to-have-surveiled-unto" τὸν "to-the-one" τάφον. "to-an-interment."

Of-late · moreover · of-sabbaths · unto-the-one · unto-shining-upon · into · to-one · of-sabbaths · it-had-came, · a-Maria · the-one · a-Magdalene · and · the-one · other · a-Maria, · to-have-surveiled-unto · to-the-one · to-an-interment.

If it is daybreak, how can we insist that it isn't? What about that word "epiphōskō"?? Do we have to change it so that it no longer speaks of daylight at all? Can we move it ahead by almost 12 hours to the first watch of the night all the way back to 6:00 pm (18:00 hours) to 9:00 pm (21:00 hours) so that there is no dawning, no light of day whatsoever? Did the women have torches or lamps to light their way? Was it really at dusk the previous evening when the Bible seems to say it was during the first moments of the morning that they went to anoint the corpse?

That word, Lexicon :: Strong's G2020 - epiphōskō ἐπιφώσκω is "as it began to dawn"... It is the break of daylight. It is the same word used in [Luk 23:54 KJV] And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on, where "drew on" is epiphōskō.

To insist that the word "opse" must always mean a period of time between 18:00 to 21:00 (from 6:00 pm my time to 9:00 pm my time) is a precarious position.

Do I understand that you want to insist on this?

 

[Goinheix]

Friend and brother
Opse means late. You have posted some use of opse in several ancient manuscripts. Opse not always means the first watch. The primary meaning of opse is late. Nevertheless, sometimes it will mean the name of the first watch (18 to 21). It hapens that in the Nt it is used 3 times, the one we are discussing and two more. It hapens than in the other two, opse is use to name the first watch. It hapens that if we interprete opse as first watch all fist perfectly. If we take opse as first waych everything will match, in special with the other Gospels. It seems adecuate to understand opse as the first watch. And it seems very unadecuate to build an entire hypotesis/doctrine based on an alternate translation of a single word.

Dawn is not only the the commence of the day light. Dawn is use figuratively for the commence of anything.

 

[Slider]

with all the greek dictionary entries, charts, graphs, cautions from moderators and other stuff going on in its thread, it's tough to keep a scorecard straight. There is only one conclusion you can make about Matthew 28:1: The time was 6 PM Saturday.

What I perceive happening is people getting out their Strong's dictionaries and analyzing each and every word and trying to force their idea to flow. The problem is that while they pick apart at each word, they totally neglect what the phrase or sentance is saying overall. It's like describing a forrest when all you've done is looked at one tree.

Here it is...

[1] In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

This does not mean after the sabbath or that the sabbath had ended. It does mean it was coming to an end. plane and simple.

[1] In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

This is where people fall apart. They see the word "dawn" and immediately think "sunrise". This is not true. Yes, the word dawn in the greek can mean to bring forth light or to illuminate. It can also mean to bring forth. Overall it either means about 6 PM Saturday or 6 AM Sunday. let's put it all together:

[1] In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

There are two timestamps here connected by the word as. This signifies that one happened immediately after the other, and thus are pointing to one time. The end of the sabbath was 6 PM Saturday. The dawning of the first day was immediately following which was 6:01 PM Saturday evening. It does NOT mean 6 AM Sunday because of the context and overall message the phrase is saying.

There simply is no other way around Mat 28:1. I imagine I'll a response that says something simple like "This not is true". But it is... Plain and simple.

As for folks like Edward and Thisnumberdisconnected who wonder why there is such an arguement in the first place... Well, for me it's about what is written in John 4:24.

There are still a lot of people that ignore that 3 days and three nights can mean nothing else other than 72 hours (or at least the only reason they've given is that it doesn't have to be exact, which is not much of an explanation). There are people who have not adequately described when the soldiers were guarding the tomb, nor when the women bought or prepared the spices. I did get answers, but they were void of reasoning.

 

[Goinheix]

with all the greek dictionary entries, charts, graphs, cautions from moderators and other stuff going on in its thread, it's tough to keep a scorecard straight. There is only one conclusion you can make about Matthew 28:1: The time was 6 PM Saturday.

What I perceive happening is people getting out their Strong's dictionaries and analyzing each and every word and trying to force their idea to flow. The problem is that while they pick apart at each word, they totally neglect what the phrase or sentance is saying overall. It's like describing a forrest when all you've done is looked at one tree.

Here it is...

[1] In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

This does not mean after the sabbath or that the sabbath had ended. It does mean it was coming to an end. plane and simple.

[1] In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

This is where people fall apart. They see the word "dawn" and immediately think "sunrise". This is not true. Yes, the word dawn in the greek can mean to bring forth light or to illuminate. It can also mean to bring forth. Overall it either means about 6 PM Saturday or 6 AM Sunday. let's put it all together:

[1] In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

There are two timestamps here connected by the word as. This signifies that one happened immediately after the other, and thus are pointing to one time. The end of the sabbath was 6 PM Saturday. The dawning of the first day was immediately following which was 6:01 PM Saturday evening. It does NOT mean 6 AM Sunday because of the context and overall message the phrase is saying.

There simply is no other way around Mat 28:1. I imagine I'll a response that says something simple like "This not is true". But it is... Plain and simple.

As for folks like Edward and Thisnumberdisconnected who wonder why there is such an arguement in the first place... Well, for me it's about what is written in John 4:24.

There are still a lot of people that ignore that 3 days and three nights can mean nothing else other than 72 hours (or at least the only reason they've given is that it doesn't have to be exact, which is not much of an explanation). There are people who have not adequately described when the soldiers were guarding the tomb, nor when the women bought or prepared the spices. I did get answers, but they were void of reasoning.

There is only a problem. Matthew 28:1 do not read "in the end od tha sabbath". All your speach is based on a false ground and is not valid.

New International Version (©2011)
After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
New Living Translation (©2007)
Early on Sunday morning, as the new day was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went out to visit the tomb.
English Standard Version (©2001)
Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
After the Sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to view the tomb.
International Standard Version (©2012)
After the Sabbaths, around dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to take a look at the burial site.
NET Bible (©2006)
Now after the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
But on the eve of the Sabbath, when the first of the week was dawning, Maryam Magdalitha and the other Maryam came to see the tomb.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
After the day of worship, as the sun rose Sunday morning, Mary from Magdala and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
At the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher.
American King James Version
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher.
American Standard Version
Now late on the sabbath day, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
Douay-Rheims Bible
AND in the end of the sabbath, when it began to dawn towards the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalen and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre.
Darby Bible Translation
Now late on sabbath, as it was the dusk of the next day after sabbath, came Mary of Magdala and the other Mary to look at the sepulchre.
English Revised Version
Now late on the sabbath day, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
Webster's Bible Translation
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn towards the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary to see the sepulcher.
Weymouth New Testament
After the Sabbath, in the early dawn of the first day of the week, Mary of Magdala and the other Mary came to see the sepulchre.
World English Bible
Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb.Young's Literal Translation
And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

 

[Slider]

with all the greek dictionary entries, charts, graphs, cautions from moderators and other stuff going on in its thread, it's tough to keep a scorecard straight. There is only one conclusion you can make about Matthew 28:1: The time was 6 PM Saturday.

What I perceive happening is people getting out their Strong's dictionaries and analyzing each and every word and trying to force their idea to flow. The problem is that while they pick apart at each word, they totally neglect what the phrase or sentance is saying overall. It's like describing a forrest when all you've done is looked at one tree.

Here it is...

[1] In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

This does not mean after the sabbath or that the sabbath had ended. It does mean it was coming to an end. plane and simple.

[1] In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

This is where people fall apart. They see the word "dawn" and immediately think "sunrise". This is not true. Yes, the word dawn in the greek can mean to bring forth light or to illuminate. It can also mean to bring forth. Overall it either means about 6 PM Saturday or 6 AM Sunday. let's put it all together:

[1] In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

There are two timestamps here connected by the word as. This signifies that one happened immediately after the other, and thus are pointing to one time. The end of the sabbath was 6 PM Saturday. The dawning of the first day was immediately following which was 6:01 PM Saturday evening. It does NOT mean 6 AM Sunday because of the context and overall message the phrase is saying.

There simply is no other way around Mat 28:1. I imagine I'll a response that says something simple like "This not is true". But it is... Plain and simple.

As for folks like Edward and Thisnumberdisconnected who wonder why there is such an arguement in the first place... Well, for me it's about what is written in John 4:24.

There are still a lot of people that ignore that 3 days and three nights can mean nothing else other than 72 hours (or at least the only reason they've given is that it doesn't have to be exact, which is not much of an explanation). There are people who have not adequately described when the soldiers were guarding the tomb, nor when the women bought or prepared the spices. I did get answers, but they were void of reasoning.

There is only a problem. Matthew 28:1 do not read "in the end od tha sabbath". All your speach is based on a false ground and is not valid.

It's copied and pasted straight from the KJV. End of story.

 

[Goinheix]

It's copied and pasted straight from the KJV. End of story.

End of the story.

 

[Sparkey]

The time was 6 PM Saturday.

Okay, but now I'm confused again. Is this not what you are saying (approximately) Zeleste?

Same with midnight. Midnight is not the midle of the night. Midnight is a name. You can not understand midnight as the oposite to noon.

When I go back to the diagrams, my thoughts go to "U.S." calendars that I have on my wall and thinking about the new day starting at midnight. But when I correct that and change gears and start thinking in terms of a 24 hour day starting at sunset and going to the next sunset, the old "Saturday / Sunday" line is shifted.

What, Zeleste, do you say? Kindly translate into the terms that I would use while staring at my calendar on the wall in the United States for a moment, please?

 

[Goinheix]

In reference to the crucifixion we have two aspects to determine: the day of the week and the date of the month.

I guess it was proven that Jesus did resurrect on Sunday.
That Jesus was dead for three days and three night, making the crucifixion day on Thursday.
That the Gospels do not mention the Friday at all.
That Matthew mention two consecutive sabbath days (thosee between Thu and Sun)

I also guess that it was proven that Jesus ended Nisan 14th alive and free.
That Jesus were not crucified on the High Sabbath Nisan 15th.
That Jesus were crucified on a preparation day for a High Sabbath of Passover.
That the two High Sabbath of Passover are the 15th and th 21st, being preparation day the 14th (wich Jesus ended alive and free) and the 20th.

Aditional I guees it was proven that Jesus were not crucified the same day of his arrest.
That the Gospels describe very long trials.
That the Gospels record several sunrises (several days)
That John states that Jesus was at pilates one day and was crucified next day.

Those are facts direct from the Bible.

 

[Goinheix]

The time was 6 PM Saturday.

Okay, but now I'm confused again. Is this not what you are saying (approximately) Zeleste?

Same with midnight. Midnight is not the midle of the night. Midnight is a name. You can not understand midnight as the oposite to noon.

When I go back to the diagrams, my thoughts go to "U.S." calendars that I have on my wall and thinking about the new day starting at midnight. But when I correct that and change gears and start thinking in terms of a 24 hour day starting at sunset and going to the next sunset, the old "Saturday / Sunday" line is shifted.

What, Zeleste, do you say? Kindly translate into the terms that I would use while staring at my calendar on the wall in the United States for a moment, please?

A Jew date was like this:
commencing at sun set
first 3 night hours = Late watch (opse)
second 3 night hours = Midnight watch
tird 3 night hours = cockcrow watch
last 3 night hours = morning watch
1st hour of day time
2nd
3erd
and like this untill 6th hours being noon
then 7th etc.
ending at 11th
an hour later is Late watch again, for the next date.

 

[Sparkey]

There simply is no other way around Mat 28:1. I imagine I'll a response that says something simple like "This not is true". But it is... Plain and simple.

As for folks like Edward and Thisnumberdisconnected who wonder why there is such an argument in the first place... Well, for me it's about what is written in John 4:24.

There are still a lot of people that ignore that 3 days and three nights can mean nothing else other than 72 hours (or at least the only reason they've given is that it doesn't have to be exact, which is not much of an explanation). There are people who have not adequately described when the soldiers were guarding the tomb, nor when the women bought or prepared the spices. I did get answers, but they were void of reasoning.

The fact of the matter is that the Lord did not say seventy-two hours and no more and no less. At least I've not found Scriptural support for this math. Have you seen hours spoken of in this manner? I could be wrong, and even as I suggest such a thing, we might do well to look at the OT for the precise instructions about offerings. He may have made limiting statements about when exactly the Wave Offering or the Burnt Sacrificial Offering is to be made. But as far as what I term the "Test of Jonah" the three day and three night condition allow a little latitude and leeway with out need of lassitude and wariness.

I like the "test of Jonah" for this. Jesus spoke (prophesied) of this. There are and must be three days and three nights. Now, if that means "[[(3 days) * (12 hours) * (60 minutes) * (60 seconds)] + [(3 nights) * (12 hours) * (60 minutes) * (60 seconds)]] == [(72 hours) * (60 minutes) * (60 seconds)]?? Sure. I know it does. But does that mean this is exactly what the Lord said and meant? Of this, I am undecided and would interpret it without the exact and precise to the second count if that helped fit things together well. But there too is a line. We certainly can not cross but even so much as a factor of +/1 twelve (12) hours and I would put my finger on the shortest time period needed the better. Excluding even a portion of a day or night is disallowed. What about a perfect fit? Yes. That would do nicely.

There simply is no other way around Mat 28:1. I imagine I'll a response that says something simple like "This not is true". But it is... Plain and simple.

Regarding your thought here, that is not my position at all. I'd like to be allowed to try to use a conflict solving technique based on finding common ground, as opposed to flat out denial or other things that indicate close mindedness. Nobody here is involved in disproving Scripture, but instead we are engaged in an attempt at reconciliation (by finding ways of understanding). Agreed, there are some methods that contribute to Acts 17:11 spirit that I want to see more of here, others that do not, but did you not also state,

with all the greek dictionary entries, charts, graphs, cautions from moderators and other stuff going on in its thread, it's tough to keep a scorecard straight.

Not sure how I might serve these many requests except to try to facilitate the expression of your thought here, right?

 

[Sparkey]

What, Zeleste, do you say? Kindly translate into the terms that I would use while staring at my calendar on the wall in the United States for a moment, please?

A Jew date was like this:
commencing at sun set
first 3 night hours = Late watch (opse)
second 3 night hours = Midnight watch
tird 3 night hours = cockcrow watch
last 3 night hours = morning watch
1st hour of day time
2nd
3erd
and like this untill 6th hours being noon
then 7th etc.
ending at 11th
an hour later is Late watch again, for the next date.

Did I miss your "translation" that I asked for? I was looking for something along the lines of "Friday at 6:01 pm your time (in the US, today) is what the Jews called the start of their Sabbath on Saturday," and hoping you would tell me that the Jews thought about a new day starting at sunset. You might have gone on to say, "Friday was the day of preparation," and that "on their Sabbath day, no work could be done in honor of God resting on the "7th" day, which was what we call Saturday."

From there, we might have discussed the difference between "weekly Sabbaths" or we could have looked at your view of exactly when Matthew 28:1 was speaking about.

Instead you spoke again, to "teach me" things about what you have already declared. It does not help when I know, for instance that there were four (4) watches in the night for the Roman Soldiers at the time of our Lord, and that during the time of the law-giving in the Old Testament, there were three (3) watches. For the sake of understanding the Passover and the Feast of Firstfruits and/or the Omar and the 49 day countdown or the Wave Offering we need to understand that the Jewish night was divided into three watches, (Exodus 14:24) (1 Sam 11:11) (Judges 7:19) (Psalms 63:6,90:4,119:148) (Lam 2:19) (Mat 24:43 cf. Mat 14:25) (Mark 6:48,13:35) (Luke 12:38). I've not made a point of mentioning this but instead have been focusing on what you are trying to say before I compare what I understand from your speech to what I understand from the Bible. I'd like to prove you right here, but it's becoming tedious.

So, if you don't mind overly, what time would it be if I had my Seiko® Watch on my wrist and was standing there with the two Mary's as they approached the empty tomb and met the angel who said he was not there?

 

[Sparkey]

Friend and brother
Opse means late. You have posted some use of opse in several ancient manuscripts. Opse not always means the first watch. The primary meaning of opse is late. Nevertheless, sometimes it will mean the name of the first watch (18 to 21). It hapens that in the Nt it is used 3 times, the one we are discussing and two more. It hapens than in the other two, opse is use to name the first watch. It hapens that if we interprete opse as first watch all fist perfectly. If we take opse as first waych everything will match, in special with the other Gospels. It seems adecuate to understand opse as the first watch. And it seems very unadecuate to build an entire hypotesis/doctrine based on an alternate translation of a single word.

Dawn is not only the the commence of the day light. Dawn is use figuratively for the commence of anything.

Okay, I understand that we could think of the "dawn of the week" as 6:01 pm or thereafter which would be at the start of the Sabbath, or when the sun set that "day". The period of time could mean the first watch, from the time the sun goes down to three hours later. It could mean the start of a new day, and that period of time could begin (and does begin in Jewish thought) at the ending when the sun goes down. That's what Genesis talks about. Gen 1:13 and there. That's how we reckon the start of the 7th Day when we look at Gen 1:31 and cf. it to Gen 2:1-2. You are saying that it does not have to be the breaking dawn of the sun. It could be the "dawn of a new time" or in this case the "ending of one day" at sunset, and not sunrise? Right?

 

[Goinheix]

If I undserastand your question... the women went to prepare species straight from the sepulcre back home. In your calendar is still Thursday. Then commenced the High Sabbath (Friday). Next day was Saturday. As soon the sabbath have finished, the women bought more specied. Tha is in the "Late watch" after the sabbath (saturday). Your clock is in 7PM. Then they prepared more species and waited for next morning. They went to the sepulcre on the "Morning Wath". Your clock is now on 5AM.

 

[Slider]

The fact of the matter is that the Lord did not say seventy-two hours and no more and no less. At least I've not found Scriptural support for this math. Have you seen hours spoken of in this manner? I could be wrong, and even as I suggest such a thing, we might do well to look at the OT for the precise instructions about offerings. He may have made limiting statements about when exactly the Wave Offering or the Burnt Sacrificial Offering is to be made. But as far as what I term the "Test of Jonah" the three day and three night condition allow a little latitude and leeway with out need of lassitude and wariness.

Ok Sparrowhawke... He Did not say 72 hours. But did he say it could be less or more? If you want to throw at me that he didn't say it had to be 72 hours, I'm going to throw it back at you that he didn't say it had to be less than 72 hours.

But Jesus did say that there were 12 hours in a day. He said it in a rhetorical question (John 11:9). By default, I suggest that means there are 12 hours in a night and that makes 24 hours in a calandar day. So I can absolutely without question and being endorsed by the words of Jesus say that there are 12 hours in a day and when he says, "3 days" he means 3 twelve hour periods. He never defined the night as being 12 hours, but like I said, by default, it is.

The problem is, if you accept that Jesus said a day was 12 hours, neither the Friday Crucifixion nor the Thursday Crucifixion model works. I will roll my eyes if you say that a night doesn't have to be 12 hours, but will not accept that a day is any less than 12 hours when our Lord himself defined what a day is.

The funny thing is that this isn't a matter of 2 or 3 hours, it's a matter of 6 to 12 hours not being accounted for.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Ok Sparrowhawke... He Did not say 72 hours. But did he say it could be less or more? If you want to throw at me that he didn't say it had to be 72 hours, I'm going to throw it back at you that he didn't say it had to be less than 72 hours.

But Jesus did say that there were 12 hours in a day. He said it in a rhetorical question (John 11:9). By default, I suggest that means there are 12 hours in a night and that makes 24 hours in a calandar day. So I can absolutely without question and being endorsed by the words of Jesus say that there are 12 hours in a day and when he says, "3 days" he means 3 twelve hour periods. He never defined the night as being 12 hours, but like I said, by default, it is.

The problem is, if you accept that Jesus said a day was 12 hours, neither the Friday Crucifixion nor the Thursday Crucifixion model works. I will roll my eyes if you say that a night doesn't have to be 12 hours, but will not accept that a day is any less than 12 hours when our Lord himself defined what a day is.

The funny thing is that this isn't a matter of 2 or 3 hours, it's a matter of 6 to 12 hours not being accounted for.

I second what you say about 72 hours, and the correct timeline using biblical feasts, bible stories and prophecies (i.e. Jonah) is my post 101.

The main problem I have is apparently I don't communicate well, and/or assume that when people debate the calendar and time that they understand where I'm coming from, but then as I read comments I see that they know diddly about the subject like an elementary math student telling a calc professor how to do their problems (as a humorous analogy).

You see, Yeshua's comment about 12 hours in a day DOES indicate he was alluding to what us gnomonists (sundial makers) call seasonal hours. It is a clue that he was probably thinking of a time-keeping device (sundial) used by the Romans and earlier called a hemispherium which is a semi-sphere facing upward like a bowl. What the ancients did was place a gnomon (pointer) over it such that the tip was a point in the center (called a nodus). The tip of this nodus traced a shadow path which was an inverted image of the sun's path across the sky. They would take the circular path of this nodus and no matter how long or short it was (due to the varying seasons) they would divide it into 12 equal parts. Thus, summer hours were longer and winter hours shorter, but then there were 12 hours in the night which were reversed. Winter night hours were long and and summer night hours short. Since there's always a set of long and short hours together, the day, of course, is still 24 hours like ours is today. It was not until recent time we came up with the concept of equinoxial hours instead to the varying length seasonal hours.

Anyhoo.... the long story short is that by that "cryptic" mention of 12 hours, for want of a better term, he was defining his days and nights as 12 hours each just as you said. When he clearly stated "three days and three nights", it is too precise of a time, and ceases to be an idiom for part of a day. Thus, a Wednesday crucifixion is the only day possible to make it mathematically possible and sound.

 

[Goinheix]

3 days and 3 night is not by any mean 72 hours oclock.
Jesus were not crucified on Wed.
For Jesus being crucified on Wed, Thu will be High Sabbath
Friday will be a regular day.
There is not any explanation on why the women didnt go to the sepulcre on Fri.
And Jesus resurrected on Sunday; that is clear in Mark 16:9

But all the above will be ignored and the Wed/Sat will continue to be posted no matter what.

 

[Sparkey]

Thanks you two. And the analogy of learning calculus is apt. I need "hand holding" there too because I face the exact problem. For me, there is a comfort level with some very basic concepts needed before I can make assertions.

This works as far as the role of facilitator goes, but doesn't work when people want me to state my opinion before it is formed. I'm building a spreadsheet that has the various "events" that surround this discussion including rules that I have understood directly and indirectly (such as "allusions") from the Bible. I've also done this before (with a friend) but from a different perspective. By the way, I'm not trying to prove anything here.

At some point, this conversation will come up again and I will take up the journey again.

 

[Sparkey]

Just passing information along here - skip if you'd like.

Part of the problem that we face is the History of the Roman Calendar. Reform to their calendar came 46 B.C.

History of the Roman (Julian) Calendar

The Romans were superstitious that even numbers were unlucky, so their months were 29 or 31 days long.
When Rome emerged as a world power, the difficulties of making a calendar were well known, but the Romans complicated their lives because of their superstition that even numbers were unlucky. Hence their months were 29 or 31 days long, with the exception of February, which had 28 days. However, four months of 31 days, seven months of 29 days, and one month of 28 days added up to only 355 days. Therefore the Romans invented an extra month called Mercedonius of 22 or 23 days. It was added every second year.

Even with Mercedonius, the Roman calendar eventually became so far off that Julius Caesar, advised by the astronomer Sosigenes, ordered a sweeping reform. 46 B.C. was made 445 days long by imperial decree, bringing the calendar back in step with the seasons. Then the solar year (with the value of 365 days and 6 hours) was made the basis of the calendar. The months were 30 or 31 days in length, and to take care of the 6 hours, every fourth year was made a 366-day year. Moreover, Caesar decreed the year began with the first of January, not with the vernal equinox in late March.

This calendar was named the Julian calendar, after Julius Caesar, and it continues to be used by Eastern Orthodox churches for holiday calculations to this day. However, despite the correction, the Julian calendar is still 111/2 minutes longer than the actual solar year, and after a number of centuries, even 111/2 minutes adds up.

Information Please® Database, © 2007 Pearson Education, Inc. All rights reserved.
Read more: History of the Roman (Julian) Calendar | Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/calendar/roman.html#ixzz2Onb9kKI7

Then, in the 16th Century came "reform" again:

The Gregorian Reform

The Julian calendar is phased out:
By the 15th century the Julian calendar had drifted behind the solar calendar by about a week, so that the vernal equinox was falling around March 12 instead of around March 20. Pope Sixtus IV (who reigned from 1471 to 1484) decided that another reform was needed and called the German astronomer Regiomontanus to Rome to advise him. Regiomontanus arrived in 1475, but unfortunately he died shortly afterward, and the pope's plans for reform died with him.

Then in 1545, the Council of Trent authorized Pope Paul III to reform the calendar once more.
...


Read more: History of the Gregorian Calendar (and problems with it - sparrow note) | Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/calendar/gregorian.html#ixzz2Oncc3xoF

What was the "problem" they were grappling with and why was the Pope involved? The Vernal Equinox is tied into the celebration of Easter. That was the "problem" that they "fixed". Oh, what other "problems" were fixed at or around that time? Around 1454 Gutenberg printed an edition of the Latin Vulgate Bible... Within a hundred years there was a virtual explosion of Protestant Bibles coming off the new presses.

It cannot be divided into equal halves or quarters; the number of days per month is haphazard; and months and years may begin on any day of the week. Holidays pegged to specific dates may also fall on any day of the week, and few Americans can predict when Thanksgiving will occur next year.

Read more: History of the Gregorian Calendar | Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/calendar/gregorian.html#ixzz2OngnkZTZ

 

[tim-from-pa]

What was the "problem" they were grappling with and why was the Pope involved? The Vernal Equinox is tied into the celebration of Easter. That was the "problem" that they "fixed". Oh, what other "problems" were fixed at or around that time? Around 1454 Gutenberg printed an edition of the Latin Vulgate Bible... Within a hundred years there was a virtual explosion of Protestant Bibles coming off the new presses.

The problem that they fixed (to make it easier for everyone here to understand) was the Julian solar calendar in that it was based on 365.25 days to make a solar year average (what astronomers call Tropical year). To 4 decimal places, the time is really 365.2422 days per year average. that may not sound like much, but let's do a little simple math:

(365.25-365.2422) x 1500yrs = 11.7 days

The parenthetical term is the number of days off in a year so over about 1500 years to Pope Gregory. So the calendar lost that many days and the vernal equinox was now coming in early March instead of late March. So, the Gregorian calendar dropped 10 days to bring the calendar back in line with the seasons (I'm not sure why it was not 11 or 12 days that they added), and now instead of adding a leap day every 4 years, we drop February 29th every century year divisible by 400. Thus, 1700, 1800 and 1900 were not leap years, but 2000 was. In our lifetime, we never skipped a leap year so to us it appears like the Julian and Gregorian calendar follows the same rules. This makes the year closer to 365.2425 days. In a few thousand years we'll be a day off again, but not as quickly as the Julian calendar.