The week of the Passion

[tim-from-pa]

One quick side note here. This solar problem is transparent when the Israelites determined Passover by observation, i.e. historically they determined the year by the ripening of the Barley and the observation of the new moon. In that sense they did not have a fixed calendar like the rest of the world was struggling with.

Then 14 days later on the 14th of the month the lamb they took in on the 10th was slaughtered. The bible makes it clear that this lamb foreshadowed Yeshua who was slaughtered at the same time of the month.

 

[Goinheix]

The gregorian calendar is not a problem at all. We are using the Jew calendar in we know exactly waht date was every day, even wich week day correspond to.

 

[Goinheix]

Today is Thursday the first day of the Passover Fest, also named Unleavened Bread. For christians it is almost the end of the Holy Week, but for the Bible it is the first day of a 8 days Fest.
Today Thursday but in the year 30 AD it is 14th Nisan, the day the passover lamb is slain.
Today 14th Nisan in the Gospels, the disciples aproached Jesus asking him about the preparation for the passover. Jesus sent Peter and John to do the prepare, and when every thing was ready, Jesus entered the romm.
After dark - for the Jew being Friday 15th - Jesus sat at the table with the disciples and celebrates the passover diner.
Sometime around midnight they will walk out, going to Getsemani.

This is what the Gospels says about this "our" today.

 

[Goinheix]

Today is Thursday the first day of the Passover Fest, also named Unleavened Bread. For christians it is almost the end of the Holy Week, but for the Bible it is the first day of a 8 days Fest.
Today Thursday but in the year 30 AD it is 14th Nisan, the day the passover lamb is slain.
Today 14th Nisan in the Gospels, the disciples aproached Jesus asking him about the preparation for the passover. Jesus sent Peter and John to do the prepare, and when every thing was ready, Jesus entered the romm.
After dark - for the Jew being Friday 15th - Jesus sat at the table with the disciples and celebrates the passover diner.
Sometime around midnight they will walk out, going to Getsemani.

This is what the Gospels says about this "our" today.

Today 14th Nisan is the day the passover lamb is slain.
Today, Jesus ended the day alive and free.

 

[Slider]

3 days and 3 night is not by any mean 72 hours oclock.
Jesus were not crucified on Wed.
For Jesus being crucified on Wed, Thu will be High Sabbath
Friday will be a regular day.
There is not any explanation on why the women didnt go to the sepulcre on Fri.
And Jesus resurrected on Sunday; that is clear in Mark 16:9

But all the above will be ignored and the Wed/Sat will continue to be posted no matter what.

Yes, there is an esplanation on why the women didn't go to the sepulcre on Friday. The reason is that it was being guarded by roman soldiers. I have previously brought this to your attention. For a reference, please check Mat 27:63-66.

This is also further proof that there could not have been two back to back sabbaths. Zeleste noted that the Roman Soldiers would not have been bound by Jewish laws and thus could have guarded the tomb on the sabbath. The problem is the Jews could not have attempted to steal the body (which is why they were guarding the tomb in the first place) because it was against Jewish law. It makes no sense that the Roman authorities would've guarded the tomb during the sabbath. They would not have spent the resources and man power to do it.

To further back this up, whether the women discovered the tomb was empty on Saturday at 6 PM like I suggest, or Sunday at 6 AM like most others suggest, the Roman soldiers are absent. The women approached the tomb and there were angels, men in white clothing, but no soldiers there to stop them. Now it is reported that they knew Jesus was not there and the massive stone was rolled back. But there is no account that they were there. So the Roman Soldiers were not guarding the tomb on the sabbath.

With that being noted, there is no time between 6 PM Thursday and 6 PM Saturday when the Romans would've been guarding the tomb if the THursday crucifixion is correct. Even if you believe the 6 AM resurrection, they weren't there. THey never saw it because they weren't there.

But the fact is there was a watch. Even if you believe that the Romans watched during the sabbath (which is never reported) the fact is that when Christ rose, they weren't there.

Now, I have dealt with Mark 16:9. This scripture was not intended to note when Christ rose, but to note when the women found him. It is true that if we only have Mark's account to go by, we must conclude that he rose on Sunday. But not at sunrise and thus destroying the concept that he was in the heart of the earth (or in the grave) three days and three nights. When the women found him he was already gone.

This is the one thing all the gospels have in common. He was risen by the time the women found him. Matthew puts it at 6 PM Saturday. Luke and John say it happened when it was dark and only Mark says it happened when it was near sunrise on Sunday. But they all say he was risen before that.

I looked at the second or third post of this thread. I'm sorry for having to call out names, but Zeleste... You stated that the theory that Jesus died on Friday was not so because that would not be three days and three nights. I agree with that, but neither is your theory that he died on Thursday and rose on Sunday. That's not three days and three nights.

I hate to pick on you, but please give me reference and reasoning why 3 days and 3 nights doesn't need to be 72 hours. Do you have any scripture to counter my scripture that says that a day is 12 hours and thus a night is 12 hours? I have encountered those that think they do, and even those instances don't hold up.

I can bend 2 or 3 hours either way. But I will not accept Jesus' prophecy being inaccurate by 6 to 12 or 24 hours. Furrthermore, your explanation on when the women bought the spices and when they prepared the the spices defies logic unless there was a day between the sabbaths.

 

[Slider]

Ok Sparrowhawke... He Did not say 72 hours. But did he say it could be less or more? If you want to throw at me that he didn't say it had to be 72 hours, I'm going to throw it back at you that he didn't say it had to be less than 72 hours.

But Jesus did say that there were 12 hours in a day. He said it in a rhetorical question (John 11:9). By default, I suggest that means there are 12 hours in a night and that makes 24 hours in a calandar day. So I can absolutely without question and being endorsed by the words of Jesus say that there are 12 hours in a day and when he says, "3 days" he means 3 twelve hour periods. He never defined the night as being 12 hours, but like I said, by default, it is.

The problem is, if you accept that Jesus said a day was 12 hours, neither the Friday Crucifixion nor the Thursday Crucifixion model works. I will roll my eyes if you say that a night doesn't have to be 12 hours, but will not accept that a day is any less than 12 hours when our Lord himself defined what a day is.

The funny thing is that this isn't a matter of 2 or 3 hours, it's a matter of 6 to 12 hours not being accounted for.

I second what you say about 72 hours, and the correct timeline using biblical feasts, bible stories and prophecies (i.e. Jonah) is my post 101.

The main problem I have is apparently I don't communicate well, and/or assume that when people debate the calendar and time that they understand where I'm coming from, but then as I read comments I see that they know diddly about the subject like an elementary math student telling a calc professor how to do their problems (as a humorous analogy).

You see, Yeshua's comment about 12 hours in a day DOES indicate he was alluding to what us gnomonists (sundial makers) call seasonal hours. It is a clue that he was probably thinking of a time-keeping device (sundial) used by the Romans and earlier called a hemispherium which is a semi-sphere facing upward like a bowl. What the ancients did was place a gnomon (pointer) over it such that the tip was a point in the center (called a nodus). The tip of this nodus traced a shadow path which was an inverted image of the sun's path across the sky. They would take the circular path of this nodus and no matter how long or short it was (due to the varying seasons) they would divide it into 12 equal parts. Thus, summer hours were longer and winter hours shorter, but then there were 12 hours in the night which were reversed. Winter night hours were long and and summer night hours short. Since there's always a set of long and short hours together, the day, of course, is still 24 hours like ours is today. It was not until recent time we came up with the concept of equinoxial hours instead to the varying length seasonal hours.

Anyhoo.... the long story short is that by that "cryptic" mention of 12 hours, for want of a better term, he was defining his days and nights as 12 hours each just as you said. When he clearly stated "three days and three nights", it is too precise of a time, and ceases to be an idiom for part of a day. Thus, a Wednesday crucifixion is the only day possible to make it mathematically possible and sound.

I appreciate your support.

 

[Goinheix]

Demostrating that you are wrong is a waste of time. You will come back again and again as nobody have proved you wrong. I am done with your Wed/Sat hypotesis.

 

[Sparkey]

Today is Thursday the first day of the Passover Fest, also named Unleavened Bread. For christians it is almost the end of the Holy Week, but for the Bible it is the first day of a 8 days Fest.

http://www.hebcal.com/converter/

 

[tim-from-pa]

Demostrating that you are wrong is a waste of time. You will come back again and again as nobody have proved you wrong. I am done with your Wed/Sat hypotesis.

Yeah, and I get weary of people who can't count to 3 very well. If you think Thursday to Sat (or early Sunday morning) is 72 hours, then I know of a 3-day and 3-night cruise to sell to you and the captain will have you back in 48 hours. :toofunny When one thinks about it, that's what it amounts to being taught in churches, but they have no trouble counting 3 calendar days for other functions. :crazy

 

[Goinheix]

Today is Thursday the first day of the Passover Fest, also named Unleavened Bread. For christians it is almost the end of the Holy Week, but for the Bible it is the first day of a 8 days Fest.
Today Thursday but in the year 30 AD it is 14th Nisan, the day the passover lamb is slain.
Today 14th Nisan in the Gospels, the disciples aproached Jesus asking him about the preparation for the passover. Jesus sent Peter and John to do the prepare, and when every thing was ready, Jesus entered the romm.
After dark - for the Jew being Friday 15th - Jesus sat at the table with the disciples and celebrates the passover diner.
Sometime around midnight they will walk out, going to Getsemani.

This is what the Gospels says about this "our" today.

Today Thursday but in the year 30 AD it is 14th Nisan

 

[tim-from-pa]

Yes, there is an esplanation on why the women didn't go to the sepulcre on Friday. The reason is that it was being guarded by roman soldiers. I have previously brought this to your attention. For a reference, please check Mat 27:63-66.

Keep in mind that Yeshua's body was prepared for burial in a hurry, then they observed the High Sabbath Day of Unleavened Bread, then on Friday they had time to buy and prepare the spices for proper burial, rested again for the weekly Sabbath and then intended to use them after the weekly Sabbath was done. All this spice preparation would not be possible without a (non-Sabbath) day to work on them. A Thursday crucifixion requires tandem Sabbaths and thus impossible to prepare until Sunday well into the day instead of at the start. Same with a Friday crucifixion would not be possible at all. So again this is even more evidence you are correct with the Wednesday crucifixion. Mathematics and the situations show it.

 

[Slider]

I am done with this.... If you don't believe that 3 days and 3 nights means 72 hours then I am not going to convince you. I can sway 3 hours either way, but if you believe it has to only be a part of a day or part of a night -- even if it's just an hour -- I won't be able to convince you. For those of you that really believe Jesus was crucified on Friday.... I disagree. But when someone comes along and says that isn't possible because it's not three days and three nights and thus, the crucifixion happened on Thursday, then realize that they aren't following their own rules either! They have no more legitamacy in their claim than you do! They experience the same problems as you do in explaining all the things that happened between the crucifixion and resurrection.

So, anyone who says the crucifixion happened on Thursday has no more proof than you do (those of you that say it happened on Friday) . They are bound by the same errors that they claim your believe is false!

I can offer a model that actually meets all the requirements the scripture gives. If you want to reject that, fine.... But the Thursday crucifixion model is no better than the model of the Friday crucifixion.

I have explained Matthew 28 and Mark 16. I accept it if there is still doubt. But I am done with this... I may provide a day by day account of what happened, which will include EVERYTHING that is written that others cannot. but I'm done with this...

As for you folks that wonder if it's even worth arguing about, I suggest you read John 4:24, Mat 4:4 and Luke 4:4. It does matter to understand that the Lord is risen, but it also matters to understand the TRUTH about it. Furthermore, it was said several times that a little leaven destroys the whole lump. He was talking about doctine and truth.

So you will argue about politics, sports and such... But you will not argue about things that are important to eternal life? About the Truth of what happened? Jesus said "Come and learn of me". Yet you don't want to learn the TRUTH about him and how he saved us all? You were warned that even a little leaven destroys the lump, and I assume you understand that.... Yet you want to let easter eggs, the name "Easter" (Read "Ishtar") and lies about when he actually died and rose into your life? Can you honestly say you are worshipping in spirit when you let paganism into your worship? Can you honestly say you are worshipping in Truth when you haven't considered that Jesus didn't die on Friday?

Getting the Bible right is THE most important thing you can ever do! I like arguing politics and sports, but they take second to getting it right with worship. So, "Oh, it doesn't matter when he died or was risen" doesn't cut it with me. Especially when mixed with pagan eggs and practices.

 

[Sparkey]

Today Thursday but in the year 30 AD it is 14th Nisan

See Note #1 (below)
Let's start with a known date: The Last Day of the Julian Calendar, October 15, 1582.
It should be a Friday.

Luckily there is an online calendar converter that takes all this into consideration. We may enter a date, such as 14 Nisan, for year 30 A.D. and have it do the work for us. This conversion page does require Java Script enabled, but that's not a problem. Here's the link from the folks at fourmilab: Calendar Converter

Here's the result(s) for year 30 A.D., Month Nisan, Day 14:

See note on Hebrew Calendar (below)

Julian calendar was automatically updated when Hebrew Calendar was updated. (go see for yourself - here's the link: Calendar Converter)The Julian Day is 358789.5. The Modified Julian Day is -2041211
See note on Julian Calendar (below)

See note on Gregorian Calendar (below)

There we have it. It was a Saturday, now all that is left is to go to another Calendar, the one that mentions the Navy - and get confirmation.

Confirmation: (drum roll, please)
This day should confirm and ...
It should be a Saturday.

Not one to give up too easily, I look to a date function of a spreadsheet program and get the prompt, "Converts a date written as year, month, day to an internal serial number and displays it in the cell's formatting. Year is an integer between 1583 and 9956 or 0 and 99. Month is an integer between 1 and 12. Day is an integer between 1 and 31." Not going to help.

Checked another calendar converter at Fundaba.org: Didn't help. Well, unless we can agree that "0030-03-26" in "New Style Gregorian YYYY-MM-DD" converts to 3763-01-07 (Nisan 7, 3763) on the Hebrew (Jewish) calendar.

Checked another calendar converter hosted at CSG Network and this one only calculates two (2) days "drift" between Julian Date for 30 A.D. March 26 and the Gregorian date of the 24th. It predicts a "Sunday" for that day. See note for CSG Calendar (below).

Checked another calendar converter found on "Shepherd's Page" and this one looks promising but by this time, your Sparrow is tired and in need of a break. I know, "waaa-waaa," I'm crying like a baby now but believe me, I've not given up.


Who knows how to do this please?

Notes:

• Note #1: The length of Julian calendar between vernal equinoxes is 365.25 days, while in fact the period is almost 11 minutes shorter. The discrepancy results in a drift of about three days every 400 years. Calculating the "drift" between the year 30 A.D. and the last day of the Julian calendar was Thursday, 4 October 1582, becomes the task. The first day of the Gregorian calendar is known to be Friday, 15 October 1582 (the cycle of weekdays was not affected). Since the week day cycle was not affected THAT YEAR the task becomes simpler.
• Note on Hebrew Calendar: Years are classified as common (normal) or embolismic (leap) years which occur in a 19 year cycle in years 3, 6, 8, 11, 14, 17, and 19. In an embolismic (leap) year, an extra month of 29 days, “Veadar” or “Adar II”, is added to the end of the year after the month “Adar”, which is designated “Adar I” in such years. Further, years may be deficient, regular, or complete, having respectively 353, 354, or 355 days in a common year and 383, 384, or 385 days in embolismic years. Days are defined as beginning at sunset, and the calendar begins at sunset the night before Monday, October 7, 3761 b.c.e. in the Julian calendar, or Julian day 347995.5. Days are numbered with Sunday as day 1, through Saturday: day 7.
• Note on Julian Calendar: The Julian calendar differs from the Gregorian only in the determination of leap years, lacking the correction for years divisible by 100 and 400 in the Gregorian calendar. In the Julian calendar, any positive year is a leap year if divisible by 4.
• The Gregorian calendar is a minor correction to the Julian. In the Julian calendar every fourth year is a leap year in which February has 29, not 28 days, but in the Gregorian, years divisible by 100 are not leap years unless they are also divisible by 400. How prescient was Pope Gregory! Whatever the problems of Y2K, they won't include sloppy programming which assumes every year divisible by 4 is a leap year since 2000, unlike the previous and subsequent years divisible by 100, is a leap year. As in the Julian calendar, days are considered to begin at midnight.
• CSG Calendar: Between 45 BC and 8 AD, the leap years in the Julian calendar do not follow the standard rules and the following leap years are implemented in the above algorithm: 45 BC, 42 BC, 39 BC, 36 BC, 33 BC, 30 BC, 27 BC, 24 BC, 21 BC, 18 BC, 15 BC, 12 BC, and 9 BC.
  The conversion between Julian Year and Gregorian Year may contain an error of +/- 1 day compared to some calendars. This is due to the complex method of calculating dates and often occurs in years which are leap years in the Julian calendar but not in the Gregorian calendar (or vice versa).

 

[Goinheix]

Sorry but your calculations are wrong.
Nisan 14th in the year 30 was thursday

Explanation.
The Jew have a caledar with a secuence of 14 years in wich intercalate 4 types of years. Every 14 Years the cicle repeats.
The mistake is using that secuesce to go back. That secuence was created in late the first century and did not apply backward to the year 30.

 

[Sparkey]

Do you have an online source for this?

I've recently been to Kaluach.org and they do.

They confirm Civil Year 14 Nisan 30 יד ניסן ל
is 26 March -3730 26 מרץ -3730 but they don't provide what day of the week it was.

The FloridaJewish.com Calendar says it's Saturday.

 

[Sparkey]

That secuence was created in late the first century

When exactly? And why would that cause an error to the DAY of the week?

 

[tim-from-pa]

I am done with this.... If you don't believe that 3 days and 3 nights means 72 hours then I am not going to convince you. I can sway 3 hours either way, but if you believe it has to only be a part of a day or part of a night -- even if it's just an hour -- I won't be able to convince you. For those of you that really believe Jesus was crucified on Friday.... I disagree. But when someone comes along and says that isn't possible because it's not three days and three nights and thus, the crucifixion happened on Thursday, then realize that they aren't following their own rules either! They have no more legitamacy in their claim than you do! They experience the same problems as you do in explaining all the things that happened between the crucifixion and resurrection.

So, anyone who says the crucifixion happened on Thursday has no more proof than you do (those of you that say it happened on Friday) . They are bound by the same errors that they claim your believe is false!

I can offer a model that actually meets all the requirements the scripture gives. If you want to reject that, fine.... But the Thursday crucifixion model is no better than the model of the Friday crucifixion.

I have explained Matthew 28 and Mark 16. I accept it if there is still doubt. But I am done with this... I may provide a day by day account of what happened, which will include EVERYTHING that is written that others cannot. but I'm done with this...

As for you folks that wonder if it's even worth arguing about, I suggest you read John 4:24, Mat 4:4 and Luke 4:4. It does matter to understand that the Lord is risen, but it also matters to understand the TRUTH about it. Furthermore, it was said several times that a little leaven destroys the whole lump. He was talking about doctine and truth.

So you will argue about politics, sports and such... But you will not argue about things that are important to eternal life? About the Truth of what happened? Jesus said "Come and learn of me". Yet you don't want to learn the TRUTH about him and how he saved us all? You were warned that even a little leaven destroys the lump, and I assume you understand that.... Yet you want to let easter eggs, the name "Easter" (Read "Ishtar") and lies about when he actually died and rose into your life? Can you honestly say you are worshipping in spirit when you let paganism into your worship? Can you honestly say you are worshipping in Truth when you haven't considered that Jesus didn't die on Friday?

Getting the Bible right is THE most important thing you can ever do! I like arguing politics and sports, but they take second to getting it right with worship. So, "Oh, it doesn't matter when he died or was risen" doesn't cut it with me. Especially when mixed with pagan eggs and practices.

I can sense your frustration, and I'd bet dollars to donuts that if it was some other event, they would know how to count to 3 correctly, including that of Jonah, but when it involved Christ, 3 days and 3 nights magically means something else. I hear ya. Again, back to post 101 the model I presented is probably yours as well, and is the only one that prophectically fits the timing and the feasts. In short, the model was derived from the facts, not some per-conceived idea where the bible is twisted and re-interpreted to fit the model.

And yes, as I stated earlier, the 12 hours in a day Christ mentioned was an allusion to the way they kept time back then, the hemispherium sundial, but I get a feeling that there's those who don't know Jack-splat about sundials or calendars, or the first thing about them when mentioning them, but are then going to turn around and tell you how to keep a calendar of events. The calendars and sundials had everything to do with time-keeping but they are left out like they are not important. That's like trying to tell someone how to fix a car without using tools.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Sparrowhawke:

Let me look over your earlier calculations using my astronomy program later on. Keep in mind nobody knows when thus and such a date in 30AD or whatever AD was because back then they went by eyesight. We can probably ascertain to within a day when, say, Passover 30AD was. I have things to do right now and don't have the time.

 

[Goinheix]

That secuence was created in late the first century

When exactly? And why would that cause an error to the DAY of the week?

The 14 years secuence was created right after 70AD. I dont wkonw the exact date or time of the day in wich it was created.
The point is that the 14 years secuence is not acurate. More acurate is a secuence of 49 years. But even that 49 years secuence is not acurate.
Before 70AD, in times of Jesus they uses a very acurate system, and we have to re.create those calendars using the same system.
The used system was as acurate and simple as observing the sky. Today we con do the same, observ the sky of those years standing in Jerusalem.
If we do that, then we found that Nisan 14th was thursday.

 

[Goinheix]

Today (talking in reference to modern days and dates) Jesus left the room some time around midnight.
He went to Getsemany to pray.
About the same time Judas went to the Jew and got a roman legionary guard. They departed to arrest Jesus using torches to iluminate the walk.
Jesus moved from Getsemany to Cedar (or the oposite, I dont have my notes with me)
Judas arrived to getsemany and went to Cedar.
Judas and the company arrived to Jesus no longer using torches.
Jesus was counting time in term of hours.
Both clues lead to a day light time.
Jesus is arrested and took to Anas.
Anas is wake up with the big news.
It is not sure how long Jesus stayed at Anas.
In Anas house the soldier wamr up in charcoal because is Saturday
(I made a mistake before... as soon this post is shown I will correct the mistake... it take hours for my post to be aproved)
Some time in the afternoon or in the evening Jesus is took to Caifas
In Caifas house (probably acros the patio) the soldiers warm up in fire because is no longer saturday.