Bible Study The Work of God: Terminal Agitation Ending in Silence

[JLB]

Yeah, I pretty much know you've been harboring a claim of personal sinlessness (on a part time basis or full time, you have declined to answer) for quite some time now but are AFRAID to come right out and say so because you know where that conversation will go. Straight into the heresy tank for that claim.

Sinless is not mentioned in my post.


More misquoting Paul and twisting his words, by taking them out of context.



Paul wasn't a sinner, but was being "judged" as a sinner by some Jews, who were attempting to slander Paul, and discredit his ministry.

5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) 6 Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world? 7 For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? 8 And why not say,“Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just. Romans 3:5-7



JLB

 

[smaller]

Please show me the post where I have claimed sinlessness.

Paul wasn't a sinner

If you can't, then you are clearly shown to be a liar, who is accusing people of things they have not done.

Paul wasn't a sinner

 

[JLB]

Again, sinless was not mentioned in my post.

Paul wasn't a sinner, but was being "judged" as a sinner by some Jews, who were attempting to slander Paul, and discredit his ministry.

5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) 6 Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world? 7 For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? 8 And why not say,“Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just. Romans 3:5-7



JLB

 

[smaller]

Again, sinless was not mentioned in my post.

Paul wasn't a sinner,
JLB

Yeah. In case you missed it, if Paul wasn't a sinner that means Paul was sinless.

Paul didn't make that claim. 1 Tim. 1:15 claims the exact opposite.

 

[Chopper]

Knowing a lot of what has been observed about sin and it's quite intimate relationship with the devil as the scriptures direct us to see, it does make understanding scriptures like this:

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

You see, this hatred, of our own life, is MANDATED by Jesus. And that is BECAUSE our sin is of the devil, 1 John 3:8, and we are to HATE the devil, our adversary, Jesus' enemy. The devil's workings happen to be in our own life.

It's for this same reason that Jesus said we are to view ourselves as "unprofitable servants."

Luke 17:10
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Again, IF we see our sin, which is OF THE DEVIL, this is not a difficult concept/claim to grasp. And what else did Jesus say about "unprofitable servants?"

Matthew 25:30
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

AGAIN, rather that FEARING Jesus' Words here, we would actually LOOK FORWARD to this actually happening, because our sin is OF THE DEVIL. Who is the real unprofitable servant in these equations?

I hope one or 2 of you are seeing LIFE in EVERY WORD of God. Yes, even the BAD WORDS that we have erred in, by NOT seeing LIFE, even in the Words we have been wrongly taught to FEAR hearing.

When Jesus said we will LIVE by every Word of God, the question is, ARE WE HEARING LIFE in every Word???

Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4.

When we don't hear LIFE in every Word of God, we are in fact being stolen from by Satan. Mark 4:15

I find it interesting that you should post this. I have felt, most of my saved life that Matthew 4:4 was my marching orders. That's why, after 40+ years, I still study both Covenants (Testaments)....Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

It blows my mind when I'm struggling with a particular theological difficulty or perhaps a sin in my life, as I study God's Word, I stumble? On the answer. O YES, the Word of God discerns. The ESV says, "and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. I like that word "intentions" Oh O! Just as I'm going to do something, the Word of God stops me! Hmm.

 

[smaller]

I find it interesting that you should post this. I have felt, most of my saved life that Matthew 4:4 was my marching orders. That's why, after 40+ years, I still study both Covenants (Testaments)....Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

It blows my mind when I'm struggling with a particular theological difficulty or perhaps a sin in my life, as I study God's Word, I stumble? On the answer. O YES, the Word of God discerns. The ESV says, "and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. I like that word "intentions" Oh O! Just as I'm going to do something, the Word of God stops me! Hmm.

I've written this to you before, about finding LIFE in every Word of God, as Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4 directs us to. It's not an easy matter for us to find life for example in the "death" Words of God. But, as God has said, "I KILL, and I MAKE ALIVE." These two workings both transpire. Understanding that kill comes before making alive, we learn not to fear kill or death, because we know what comes after, which is "I make alive." Knowing this, we might then see LIFE in every Word, even though there was a kill word on the trail to LIFE. The kill word was on the path of LIFE.

Deuteronomy 32:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

It's problematic for us to only see the blue, and ignore the red. We should not fear to hear the red, as red leads to and is precedent to, the blue.

This is generally the typology of Divine Logic. First, the natural, the RED. Then the Spiritual, the BLUE. The "red" is Gods servant, that He uses to bring about the BLUE.

 

[JLB]

Yeah. In case you missed it, if Paul wasn't a sinner that means Paul was sinless.

Paul didn't make that claim. 1 Tim. 1:15 claims the exact opposite.

Again, as stated before, sinless is your word that you interject into a scripture or post, the try to argue against what the scripture does not say.

Paul was saved by grace through faith.
Paul was forgiven of his sins.
Paul is a saint, not a sinner.

He went from being a sinner, to being a saint.


Paul now had the ability to come body before the throne of Grace, and have his sins forgiven, through faith in Jesus Christ, and what He did on the cross.

Before this, he was a persecutor of the Church and a sinner, in which he considered himself the chief of sinners.

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, 13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 1 Timothy 1:12-15

Paul placed himself at the top of the list of sinners, whom Christ came into the world to save.

...although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man;


Do you believe Paul continued to be a blasphemer, a persecutor and an insolent man after he was a Christian and an Apostle?



JLB

 

[JLB]

I've written this to you before, about finding LIFE in every Word of God, as Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4 directs us to.

4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’” Matthew 4:4

Word here is Rhema. the Spoken word from God Himself.

Mark 4:15 is Logos, which in context is the Gospel message.

13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? 14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness;17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. 18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.” Mark 4:13-20



The devil tries to steal the Gospel message from the hearts of all men, who hear the Gospel, but is unsuccessful.

He can't steal the Gospel message from all men.

Only those whose hearts have been hardened, like the well traveled path that Jesus describes.

The others do if fact receive the word with joy and the seed germinates and springs forth with a plant.

It's my personal belief that the devil didn't steal any word from Chopper, as Chopper's heart is good soil, and not hard, like the well worn path described by Jesus.

I think it's possible that Chopper just may have forgotten what the Lord spoke to him, like many of us.

I have had to on many occasions, ask the lord to please remind me of things He spoke to me, and He does.




JLB

 

[smaller]

Again, as stated before, sinless is your words that you interject into a scripture or post, the try to argue against what the scripture does not say.

Paul was saved.

Look JLB, you're the one who claimed Paul was sinless i.e. not a sinner.

That is simply not true and that's all there is to the matters.

Anyone who reads Romans 7 and comes away with any notions that Paul was not a sinner is just not paying attention.

Romans 7:
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Romans 7:
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

What your positions are involved in is a VAIN and FUTILE attempt to make the very factual EVIL that was present with Paul NOT be EVIL. And instead, in VAIN and FUTILE attempts, trying to make evil present with Paul something other than what it is, EVIL.

Romans 7:
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

When anyone tries to justify EVIL PRESENT it is actually an action of being deceived by that evil present, trying to make it something other than what it really is, EVIL PRESENT.

Any who claim this to not be the case with them are not even paying attention to their own thoughts, which ARE in fact quite evil.

Paul teaches us that when LAW meets indwelling sin, evil defiling thoughts are the produce of SIN. Romans 7:7-13. This is HOW Paul knows there is evil present with him. He examined his own thoughts.

I'd suggest anyone wanting to be "in truth" should do the same. OR they are still under DECEPTION, not reigning OVER it.

 

[JLB]

Look JLB, you're the one who claimed Paul was sinless i.e. not a sinner.

A sinner is defined as a person who is lost, and without God.

8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. Romans 5:8-10

A saved person is a person who has been reconciled to God by faith in Jesus Christ.

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

When we come to Christ as a sinner, and believe the Gospel, our sins are washed away, and forgiven.


10 When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, “Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?”
11 She said, “No one, Lord.”
And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.” John 8:10-11

This same John also writes -

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:4-8



JLB

 

[JLB]

Romans 7:
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

The evil Paul refers to here in Chapter 7 is the law of sin.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:21-23


You seem to be teaching the erroneous doctrine that it is Satan in the flesh of the Christian that is doing the sinning, and not sin itself.


Do you understand that sin is not Satan?



JLB

 

[JLB]

When anyone tries to justify EVIL PRESENT it is actually an action of being deceived by that evil present, trying to make it something other than what it really is, EVIL PRESENT.

Any who claim this to not be the case with them are not even paying attention to their own thoughts, which ARE in fact quite evil.

8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. Romans 5:8-10


This says we were justified by His blood.

Who was justified, if not the person who believes?



JLB

 

[smaller]

4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’” Matthew 4:4

Word here is Rhema. the Spoken word from God Himself.

Mark 4:15 is Logos, which in context is the Gospel message.

Dividing The Word from the Word is not what The Word does. Rhema and Logos are deployed, simultaneously. For God so loved the world applies just as much today as the day it was so spoken. Even though spoken from John the Apostle.

Dividing rhema and logos is a charismatic and other fringe sect error. There is an overwhelming amount of "overlap" in the scriptures with these terms. They can not reasonably be divided.

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word (3056 - logos) of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word (4487 - rhema) of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word (4487 - rhema) which by the gospel is preached unto you.

The devil tries to steal the Gospel message from the hearts of all men, who hear the Gospel, but is unsuccessful.

Uh, no. The devil is actually successful in 100% of the cases.

No one is born a believer. The devil is successful by blinding ALL unbelievers and we ALL start out as unbelievers.

He can't steal the Gospel message from all men.

The theft is not limited to blinding the Gospel. Understanding is also blinded by "darkness" which we DO have to deal with in the form of EVIL PRESENT.

What your positions have a very hard time with is that EVIL PRESENT is not a cooperative venture with The Word. These are "resisting factions." Evil resists God and His Words. Just as Mark 4:15 shows us, and just as Paul shows us in Romans 7:7-13, proving that evil, indwelling sin, works adversely when it meets LAW.

Only those whose hearts have been hardened, like the well traveled path that Jesus describes.

The others do if fact receive the word with joy and the seed germinates and springs forth with a plant.
JLB

Every Word of the parable applies to us. Just as Jesus stated in Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4.

IF a position says Mark 4:15 doesn't apply to us, then Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4 statements are NOT TRUE. But they are true, so every Word DOES apply to us. Simple concept.

 

[smaller]

The evil Paul refers to here in Chapter 7 is the law of sin.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:21-23

You seem to be teaching the erroneous doctrine that it is Satan in the flesh of the Christian that is doing the sinning, and not sin itself.

Evil is a power. Hab. 2:9.

When that evil power meets the Holy, spiritual, righteous and good LAW, there is an eruption of conflicts in purposes. And this results in "evil thoughts" which, according to Jesus, DO defile us. These are not presented as "optional" by Jesus:

Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Matt. 5:28

Anyone who claims otherwise is just not paying attention.

Romans 7 is reality. And yes, evil IS present with us.

 

[JLB]

Dividing The Word from the Word is not what The Word does. Rhema and Logos are deployed, simultaneously.

4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”
Matthew 4:4

This is a quote from the Old testament.

Rhema is the Greek word used to describe a God breathed word to someone.


Mark 4:15 is a reference to the Logos, the Gospel message.

13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? 14 The sower sows the word.[Gospel Message]15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness;17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. 18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.” Mark 4:13-20

The point I am making, is the Gospel message is what is stolen by Satan from a person whose heart is hard.

Satan doesn't steal the message of the Gospel from all people, but only those in the first group... lest the should believe and be saved.

These that Satan stole the message of the Gospel from, never believed.

The other 3 groups, did in fact believe the Gospel.


The Point: This teaching from Jesus makes no provision for Satan stealing the Gospel message from believers.



JLB

 

[smaller]

8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. Romans 5:8-10


This says we were justified by His blood.

Who was justified, if not the person who believes?

The indwelling sin and evil present with no man is EVER justified, nor is that even a remote theological possibility.

 

[JLB]

Evil is a power. Hab. 2:9.

When that evil power meets the Holy, spiritual, righteous and good LAW, there is an eruption of conflicts in purposes. And this results in "evil thoughts" which, according to Jesus, DO defile us. These are not presented as "optional" by Jesus:

Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Matt. 5:28

Anyone who claims otherwise is just not paying attention.

Romans 7 is reality. And yes, evil IS present with us.

Evil in the context of Romans 7 is sin, that dwells in our flesh.

Romans 7 does not say Satan dwells in our flesh.

20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! Romans 7:20-25

Sin dwells in our flesh, not Satan.

Which is why Paul, in the next breath tells us not to walk according to the flesh.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


JLB

 

[smaller]

The Point: This teaching from Jesus makes no provision for Satan stealing the Gospel message from believers.

Satan steals Word. That's what Satan does. Satan doesn't stop doing what Satan does. Mark 4:15

 

[JLB]

The indwelling sin and evil present with no man is EVER justified, nor is that even a remote theological possibility.

The person who believes in Christ is justified by His blood.

8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. Romans 5:8-10

The person who is justified by the blood of Jesus Christ, their body will be resurrected from dead and be immortal, just like Jesus.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 2 Corinthians 5:2-4


JLB

 

[smaller]

Evil in the context of Romans 7 is sin, that dwells in our flesh.

Indwelling sin and evil present (from Romans 7:17-21) is NOT forensic. It is therefore unseen power/activity, internal, IN THE MIND as Jesus Paul shows us, which scriptures call disobedience, i.e. the spirit of disobedience. Romans 11:32, Eph. 2:2.

Romans 7 does not say Satan dwells in our flesh.

Scriptures tell us quite plainly that Word is stolen from us by Satan. That theft is internal. Sin is also quite connected to the DEVIL, by 1 John 3:8. There is no logical disconnection available.

Paul himself acknowledges that a messenger of Satan DID dwell in his own flesh. 2 Cor. 12:7. And showed also that "temptation" was in his flesh, Gal. 4:13-14. Does the tempter tempt? Of course. And does so INTERNALLY.

Seeing just man or just a believer is NOT a scriptural sight whatsoever.