Bible Study The Work of God: Terminal Agitation Ending in Silence

[JLB]

Will ask you again JLB. Are you or I SINLESS when walking in the Spirit?

And you know better than to claim I don't post scripture. I post the scriptures you don't care to hear is all. So, in your response to the above question, which I EXPECT you to answer like a MAN, you are welcome to address 1 John 1:8 as well.

Are you back to spewing lies about what I posted?

I have not used the word sinless.

We have sin, in our flesh, which is why the Christian who practices the works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8


Those who sow to the Spirit, will reap of the Spirit everlasting life.

Those who sow to the flesh, will reap corruption.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Pastor Owen Dry explained it this way, there is a punishment for murder that was used to punish murderers that were caught before the victim was buried. In this case the Murdered is the Old Man and the Murderer is the New Man, the Saved from Punishment for his Sins, Man. The carcass of the victim is strapped onto the back of the offender and remained there until it killed it´s murderer. In like manor, we have the old man with us and it keeps wanting to kill us and will remain that way until we have our Glorified Bodies.

I've heard that before. Many long years ago. I'd consider it somewhat valid sight, other than I find it somewhat impossible to remove the devil from the equations of sin, ala Mark 4:15, 1 John 3:8, John 10:10, etc. It's not just our old man that is the problem with sin. Sin is actually meant to terminate the first/natural man. It's the order of God. Deut. 32:39, 1 Cor. 15:46. It was always Gods Own Intents for there to be natural mankind and a Last Man, Spiritual, Jesus Christ, to which all believers in Him are joined, as One.

 

[smaller]

I certainly respect and honor your position on the flesh nature in a redeemed person. If you don't believe that a saved person has no sin nature, you're at liberty to believe what your heart and teachings dictate. I see 1 Corinthians 15 teaching a sin nature until the resurrection. If smaller is right, Jesus had a human nature until He was resurrected, then it was gone. That's what I believe Paul is teaching in 1 Corinthians 15.

Belief that Jesus no longer has a human nature is iffy in orthodoxy i.e. it's probably heretical to believe that. But in your sight's behalf, we ARE directed to know Jesus after the flesh no longer. 2 Cor. 5:16. And yes, when we look at humans we do tend to see them as flesh, even though we are not supposed to see that way. We're not to look at any person in that way as believers, and particularly NOT Jesus.

I'd hardly call an Eternal Glorified Body, human. That doesn't stack up in my head properly. The study of Jesus' post resurrection Body is an interesting journey. Yes, appeared as a human. But also in other ways, ala Rev. 1. Seems that manifestation of Christ can be in The Image He Prefers to convey, as a Lamb for example, in Rev. 5:6, with seven eyes and seven horns no less. Hardly a picture of a huMAN.

When we observe that man is made in the image of God, that can mean a LOT of things. To me, the image of God that man is, is that conveyed by God in Gen. 3:22, as knowing good and evil. The ground from which the body of man came is not all that important on the list of priorities. Gal. 5:17. Our body is just the dust or clay housing/encasement wherein is contained the knowledge of good/evil. And in some undefined sense, our individual identities.

Obviously we are viewing a saved individual. The use of the word "natural" is the same as the word "nature" Strong's says these words mean...."as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): - carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly])."
Total KJV occurrences: 151

O well, someday we'll know the truth.

True. Since we only see in part any observations we have contain the potential of problematic sights, at a minimum.

We do know for no uncertain fact from 1 Cor. 15:42-46 that the Resurrection, that would be Jesus, was sown in Adam, the first natural man. Jesus termed Himself as The Resurrection. John 11:25. NOT that The Resurrection was the same as what The Resurrection was sown into. Two distinct matters, imho.

Technically Jesus, The Resurrection, traveled out of the Garden with Adam, and into Israel where eventually His Unique Human Body came forth to be God with us, Immanuel. I can only term that as Paul did, a great mystery. The Creator becoming a part of His Own creation is very difficult to wrap our heads around.

 

[smaller]

We are told to walk according to the Spirit, and not according to the flesh.

If you can't control yourself then you need to receive the Holy Spirit.

The fruit of the Spirit is self control.

You are avoiding stating whether or not you or I or any believer walking in the Spirit is still a sinner.

Why is it you continue to avoid answering such a simple question JLB?

My answer is CLEAR. Yes, we are sinners, period, as long as we are in a dust/flesh/clay container/body.

And of course you know as soon as your position actually "tells the truth" on being a factual sinner while walking in the Spirit about 5/6ths of your theology positions/claims go up in smoke.

 

[smaller]

Are you back to spewing lies about what I posted?

I have not used the word sinless.

We have sin, in our flesh, which is why the Christian who practices the works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

JLB

You continue to equate sin with the external act, i.e. the practice of sin.

Paul doesn't make that presentation. Sin dwells in the flesh, and that makes us sinners, period. Action or no action. Romans 7:17-21.

Paul also said that sin DOES what it does, again, not necessarily 'viewed' on the outside, but the INSIDE, Romans 7:7-13.

I'm pretty sure every believer who thinks they only sin when they do the external deed avoid thinking they are really sinners, regardless. And they more than likely have no conceptions whatsoever that sin thoughts are evil, defiling and are of the tempter, the devil. Mark 4:15, Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23, Matt. 5:28, 2 Cor. 12:7, 1 John 3:8, 1 Tim. 1:15. But hey, Satan is pretty tricky about covering his tracks and his location.

As to your claim that only practicing sin makes one a sinner, no such claims exist in scriptures. The presence of indwelling sin and evil present with us makes us sinners in perpetuity, as long as we have a flesh body. 1 John 1:8.

Sorry to break the theological bubble you've constructed to avoid being a factual perpetual sinner, but that's life.

 

[smaller]

Knowing a lot of what has been observed about sin and it's quite intimate relationship with the devil as the scriptures direct us to see, it does make understanding scriptures like this:

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

You see, this hatred, of our own life, is MANDATED by Jesus. And that is BECAUSE our sin is of the devil, 1 John 3:8, and we are to HATE the devil, our adversary, Jesus' enemy. The devil's workings happen to be in our own life.

It's for this same reason that Jesus said we are to view ourselves as "unprofitable servants."

Luke 17:10
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Again, IF we see our sin, which is OF THE DEVIL, this is not a difficult concept/claim to grasp. And what else did Jesus say about "unprofitable servants?"

Matthew 25:30
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

AGAIN, rather that FEARING Jesus' Words here, we would actually LOOK FORWARD to this actually happening, because our sin is OF THE DEVIL. Who is the real unprofitable servant in these equations?

I hope one or 2 of you are seeing LIFE in EVERY WORD of God. Yes, even the BAD WORDS that we have erred in, by NOT seeing LIFE, even in the Words we have been wrongly taught to FEAR hearing.

When Jesus said we will LIVE by every Word of God, the question is, ARE WE HEARING LIFE in every Word???

Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4.

When we don't hear LIFE in every Word of God, we are in fact being stolen from by Satan. Mark 4:15

 

[smaller]

On one hand I would enjoy the peace and contentment of being above reproach. On the other hand, I would kind of hate to see God lose his footstool.

I suspect that the knowledge of evil is a Divine Eternal Trait. Gen 3:22, i.e. this knowledge has always been a part of God and always will be.

 

[JLB]

You continue to equate sin with the external act, i.e. the practice of sin.

the law of God dwells internally, within the inward man.

For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. Romans 7:22

The law of sin, dwells in the flesh.

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:23

• Expressing the desires of the flesh is "practicing the works of the flesh".

• Expressing the life of Jesus Christ within, is "practicing righteousness".

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7




JLB

 

[JLB]

Matthew 25:30
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The unprofitable servant is a servant of The master of the house, a believer, a person.

The unprofitable servant is not a reference to the devil.



JLB

 

[smaller]

the law of God dwells internally, within the inward man.

For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. Romans 7:22

The law of sin, dwells in the flesh.

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:23

• Expressing the desires of the flesh is "practicing the works of the flesh".

• Expressing the life of Jesus Christ within, is "practicing righteousness".

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7

JLB

Is a believer only sinning when "practicing" sin or is a believer a sinner?

We can dance around the maypole on the subject and I understand your reluctance to claim NOT being a sinner, but you also understand that means you are claiming to be sinless (on a part time basis.)

And with that, instant heresy in the sights of most believers.
Paul, speaking personally:

Romans 3:
7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

 

[smaller]

The unprofitable servant is a servant of The master of the house, a believer, a person.

The unprofitable servant is not a reference to the devil.

JLB

Yeah, well, I think our dialog got lost about the time the reality of Mark 4:15 came into sight. One of us accepts it happens to all of us, that would be me. One of us does not accept it happens, that would be you, at least in your own eyes. Not in mine.

 

[JLB]

When Jesus said we will LIVE by every Word of God, the question is, ARE WE HEARING LIFE in every Word???

Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4.

When we don't hear LIFE in every Word of God, we are in fact being stolen from by Satan. Mark 4:15

The "word" hear in Mark 4 refers to the message of the Gospel. The Logos; The Message.

Only some have the word stolen from their hearts, while others hear the word and receive it with joy.

13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? 14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. 18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.” Mark 4:13-20

Others hear the word, and receive it and bear fruit.


Not everyone has the word stolen from their heart.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Is a believer only sinning when "practicing" sin or is a believer a sinner?

We can dance around the maypole on the subject and I understand your reluctance to claim NOT being a sinner, but you also understand that means you are claiming to be sinless (on a part time basis.)

Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment,
Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. Psalm 1:5

Sinners are not part of the congregation of the righteous, who have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ.

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

Paul says while we "were" still sinners... Christ died for us.

... were still sinners refers to the past before we obeyed the Gospel, and were reconciled to God by the blood of Jesus Christ, in which we are not part of the household of Christ.

5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. Hebrews 3:5-6

• A sinner is a lost person who is without God, and not a member of the household of Christ.

• A person who is Christ's, has obeyed the Gospel, and has been born again.

You seem to be trying mix the two together to justify living an immoral, sinful life, all the while trying to convince everyone that it is Satan in your flesh who is doing the sinning and not you yourself.



JLB

 

[JLB]

And with that, instant heresy in the sights of most believers.
Paul, speaking personally:

Romans 3:
7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

More misquoting Paul and twisting his words, by taking them out of context.



Paul wasn't a sinner, but was being "judged" as a sinner by some Jews, who were attempting to slander Paul, and discredit his ministry.

5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) 6 Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world? 7 For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? 8 And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just. Romans 3:5-7



JLB

 

[smaller]

The "word" hear in Mark 4 refers to the message of the Gospel. The Logos; The Message.

Only some have the word stolen from their hearts, while others hear the word and receive it with joy.

I didn't see Jesus deploy the word optional in Mark 4:15.

People who deny it happens are exactly the ones being stolen from.

 

[smaller]

Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment,
Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. Psalm 1:5

Sinners are not part of the congregation of the righteous, who have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ.

You are welcome to make your claims of being sinless on a full or part time basis in the Apologetics forum, but I'll not be entertaining that lie here.

Paul says while we "were" still sinners... Christ died for us.

Paul apparently didn't think his status as a sinner changed after salvation. 1 Tim. 1:15.

... were still sinners refers to the past before we obeyed the Gospel, and were reconciled to God by the blood of Jesus Christ, in which we are not part of the household of Christ.

• A sinner is a lost person who is without God, and not a member of the household of Christ.

• A person who is Christ's, has obeyed the Gospel, and has been born again.

You seem to be trying mix the two together to justify living an immoral, sinful life, all the while trying to convince everyone that it is Satan in your flesh who is doing the sinning and not you yourself.

The indwelling sin and evil present with NO ONE is obedient, faithful, legal, under Grace or the recipient of Divine Mercy.

You are welcome to flirt with the heresy of being sinless.

I'm not interested.

 

[smaller]

More misquoting Paul and twisting his words, by taking them out of context.



Paul wasn't a sinner,

Yeah, I pretty much know you've been harboring a claim of personal sinlessness (on a part time basis or full time, you have declined to answer) for quite some time now but are AFRAID to come right out and say so because you know where that conversation will go. Straight into the heresy tank for that claim.

 

[JLB]

Yeah, I pretty much know you've been harboring a claim of personal sinlessness

Please show me the post where I have claimed sinlessness.

If you can't, then you are clearly shown to be a liar, who is accusing people of things they have not done.

This comes from the accuser of the brethren, the father of lies, and of liars.

You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. John 8:44


Over and over you have made false accusations against me.


JLB

 

[JLB]

You are welcome to make your claims of being sinless on a full or part time basis in the Apologetics forum, but I'll not be entertaining that lie here.

The word sinless is not found in my post.

Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment,
Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. Psalm 1:5

Sinners are not part of the congregation of the righteous, who have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The indwelling sin and evil present with NO ONE is obedient, faithful, legal, under Grace or the recipient of Divine Mercy.

You are welcome to flirt with the heresy of being sinless.

I'm not interested.

The word sinless is not found in my post.

• A sinner is a lost person who is without God, and not a member of the household of Christ.

• A person who is Christ's, has obeyed the Gospel, and has been born again.

You seem to be trying mix the two together to justify living an immoral, sinful life, all the while trying to convince everyone that it is Satan in your flesh who is doing the sinning and not you yourself.


JLB