Bible Study The Work of God: Terminal Agitation Ending in Silence

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And that further, the new man after Christ is free of sin's nature. And the two do battle, but Victory is assured. (Rom. 8:1-4) (Gal. 5:16-18). This law of sin is self evident if we are truthful.

That shows a lot of confusion Douglas. IF the believer was free of sin's nature there would be no battle.

You may want to revisit your claim that the believer is free of sin's nature. No believer is sinless. And that's what it would have to be to be FREE of sin's nature. Paul didn't say that whatsoever, but the exact opposite, in the extremist sense of the fact. 1 Tim. 1:15

 

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Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Much of the OP hangs upon this verse. It has been cited over and over again in conjunction with Mark 4:15, seemingly to glorify the works of Satan, but that is not what is important nor pertinent to the question that I ask in this post.

Having evil present with us is a hard line scriptural fact ez. Whether we like it or not is quite irrelevant. Mark 4:15 is a fact as well, with the same statement, liking or not is irrelevant.

Since smaller and Chopper are leading this study on Satan,

Spin doctoring doesn't work well with me ez, as you may know.

We study the scriptures, the WORD OF GOD, and IF the WORD OF GOD presents Satan, then we pay attention.

Do you see how subtle your spin doctoring above is, claiming to be studying Satan when we are in fact studying the Word of God?

Nice try though. Common working of deceit in your attempt. You should pay closer attentions to the thread. Might learn something.

then I ask only one simple question of you:

There is no "then." Your setup question is a total failure.

When Paul writes "I find then a law," then what law was Paul quoting from? What was the law that Paul found? Can you provide the Old Testament account of what Paul claimed to find in the law, that when he would do good, evil is present with him?

Notwithstanding the phony setup claim above, Paul employs a multi reasoned approach. For scriptural intents refer to Gen. 2:17, Gen. 3:3-6, Deut. 30:15, Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Matt. 5:28. There are MANY more examples.

Paul also uses a reasoned appeal to "common sense" that anyone can employ to prove the fact in Romans 7:7-13. I have personally used this appeal many times when witnessing, without a Bible handy, to prove the presence of internal evil and the need for the Grace and Mercy of God in Christ.

This is a Bible study after all, so providing the actual scripture that Paul was referring to when he made that statement might go a long way to establishing the truth of the matter. What Law did Paul find?

The LAW that Paul was referring to is the same statement of fact in Mark 4:15. It's a real law with a real test that can be made, internally, to verify the fact of having evil thoughts. Just as certain of a law as dropping something and watching gravity make it fall.

Yes, man, including believers, do have "evil present" with us.

IF we can't observe that much about "man" we are quite spiritually blinded. The world itself is full to the brim of evidence.

1 John 5:19
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

So here is a lesson in blindness.

When believers read 1 John 5:19, do they exempt themselves from the bolded part? If they do, they have been stolen from by Satan, internally. And are deceived. We do have evil present with us, therefore we are also lying in wickedness.

Tough pill to swallow for blinded religious hypocrites, granted. IN fact any who can't swallow the fact are that.

 

[Douglas Summers]

However, when you say "free" of sin's nature, do you mean with condition, or do you mean "free" as in no longer has a sin nature?

I mean that as long as we have this body, it is under the law, (nature) of sin (inherited). But the new man of the born again believer is after Christ. (That Spirit does not have a sinful nature) and is at odds with the flesh. God gave us a new man, He never changed the old man. Thus the battle begins. (Gal. 5:16-18) Paul describes the battle in Romans Chapter 7 and the victory in Romans Chapter 8.

 

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Paul never had a messenger of Satan in his flesh.

Yeah, we've done this drill before. Even though it's right there to see, you deny it's there to see. It's quite an amazing thing to watch your open blatant denial with your claim compared to Paul's own words:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

It's a similar form of denial where you claim Paul was not a sinner and Paul makes the exact opposite claim in 1 Tim. 1:15.

That's why I stick to what's in writing because quite obviously people can't see or hear what is actually in writing and will outright deny and contradict what is in writing.

Thank God for "as it is written."

 

[Douglas Summers]

That shows a lot of confusion Douglas. IF the believer was free of sin's nature there would be no battle.

Your interpretation of the Scriptures does not allow for you to understand what I posted. (Gal. 5:16-18) should clear up my post.

 

[smaller]

I mean that as long as we have this body, it is under the law, (nature) of sin (inherited).

Paul teaches us flat out, that sin dwells in our flesh and evil is present with us, that we are all under sin, and that the Spirit is contrary to and against our flesh. Romans 3:9, Romans 7:17-21, Gal. 5:17.

I understand that these factual disclosures are not pleasant to our flesh. And our minds will rebel against these disclosures and fight them, because they are GODS TRUTH.

But the new man of the born again believer is after Christ. (That Spirit does not have a sinful nature)

I do accept the fact that there are presently, TWO BODIES. 1 Cor. 15:44. It's seldom a subject of study, but it's a good study. Pity to "mix" the two or think it's only one or the other, which is very common.

The scriptures present this as an "inner" man and an "outward" man.

2 Corinthians 4:16
For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

Ephesians 3:16
That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

and is at odds with the flesh. God gave us a new man, He never changed the old man. Thus the battle begins. (Gal. 5:16-18) Paul describes the battle in Romans Chapter 7 and the victory in Romans Chapter 8.

Paul specifies the 'battles' and whom they are with in Eph. 6:11-12.

If we understand the reality of Mark 4:15 we'd recognize the battles are "internal" in nature. Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:17-21, Romans 7:23, Romans 13:12 and the battles are connected directly to the devil, 1 John 3:8.

 

[smaller]

Your interpretation of the Scriptures does not allow for you to understand what I posted. (Gal. 5:16-18) should clear up my post.

Unlikely.

 

[JLB]

Paul teaches us flat out, that sin dwells in our flesh and evil is present with us, that we are all under sin, and that the Spirit is contrary to and against our flesh. Romans 3:9, Romans 7:17-21, Gal. 5:17.

Sin dwells in our flesh, not Satan.

20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. Romans 7:20


Denying this fact, just exposes your theory to the light of God's truth.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Sin dwells in our flesh, not Satan.

20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. Romans 7:20

Well, you see JLB, there are your claims, and there are scriptural claims, the two being quite obviously DIFFERENT.

I'm certain that Paul's sin was "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, and that a messenger of Satan was IN Paul's flesh, 2 Cor. 12:7, and that Paul waged INTERNAL WAR with that adversary, Eph. 6:11-12 Romans 7:23, and Paul CONDEMNED that adversary, his works and his ways. Romans 8:3, even while having same, personally, to CONTEND with.

So whatever claims you have that are contrary to these, I'm really not all that interested in because your claims just can't hold scriptural water.

If you would simply agree that the indwelling sin and evil present with you is condemned, NOT obedient, NOT inactive, OF the devil, you and I would get along just fine. I KNOW I'm tempted internally by our adversary, and what that means, an internal adversary. You on the other hand CLAIM NO SUCH BATTLES or internal adversary. I'd suggest you have been captured and sidelined, for now.

But, for lack of truthful discourses, our sights will divide. I don't hold you as a believer any ill will, but IF you are hearing me as I hear scriptures, I don't just see/hear JLB only in the conversations. Nor do I with anyone else, including my own self.

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

I know other disciples of Jesus by their hatred of SELF.

The only poster who has shared "honestly" in this thread with me is Chopper, so far. Because Chopper KNOWS that he has encountered and dealt with these same issues, INTERNALLY. They are not FUN.

The balance of you have my HOPES.

When we see our indwelling sin, our evil present, as of the devil, our adversary, THEN we truly know the "SELF" we are to hate. But most are BLINDED to this reality, and think it rather as "just them." Mark 4:15 points otherwise.

 

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To understand, to listen, to see, to hear the Word of God, really does require a THREE DIMENSIONAL mindset.

We have the Ever Living Word of God in play. This is THE SUPREME DIMENSION, over and above all other things. DIMENSION ONE.

Then we have our dimension. The dimension of the 5 senses. The dimension of the flesh, hear/see/touch/taste/smell. The dimension of the FLESH, of "literal physical reality." But this is NOT the only dimension. It is just one of 3 major dimensions, lesser on the order of dimensions than the Primary One.

Then there is the dimension of darkness, of the spirit(s) of disobedience.

All three have their own sets of rules and they ALL overlap.

Get's progressively interesting, donut?

THREE DIMENSIONS are involved in these conversations.

And these 3 Dimensions are delivered to us in Mark 4:15 in one very easy sound bite.

 

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A little night treasure from our Heavenly Father:

Isaiah 45:3
And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the Lord, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.

What treasures is God Speaking of here?

I will share, one of MANY, as received.

When we no longer HIDE the fact of evil present with(in), of indwelling sin in our flesh, within us, hiding this from Our Father, knowing these things can NOT OBEY, can NOT BE LEGAL, can NOT be faithful, are AGAINST THE SPIRIT and CONTRARY TO THE SPIRIT, we have been given the treasure of scriptural/Word HONESTY. And in revealing this to Him, which He Already Knew and Knows in any case, it is US who receive HIS LIGHT and the reward is HIS HONESTY, given to US.

Then, we get a SECOND HEAVENLY TREASURE:

This is part of what Paul shows us, here for example:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

In the above, we should recognize the 3 Dimensional discourse. There is God, there is us, there is disobedience. Eph. 2:2

What do we have to say to the fact? Whatever we say will not change the fact. IF we claim to see/to hear, we can only say YES YOUR HONOR! That's a fact.

There is another treasure HIDDEN therein. IN fact, it's sitting there, free for the taking, but to the DISHONEST, they will not hear/see/obey, NOR will they see the TREASURE or have any clue that it's even THERE. It will remain hidden to them.

It's quite amazing to behold, actually. How effective the BLINDNESS really is.

These treasures start to add up, and they compound, they interweave. And the complexities of our Father become KNOWN.

But you see, God has hidden these treasures, and He has put a hissing SNAKE in front of the den, to scare off thief's and posers and those who would ransack His Treasures where they have NO RIGHT to partake of.

 

[smaller]

It's pretty hard to claim we are reigning OVER the spirit of disobedience when we claim we don't have the spirit of disobedience in our flesh to REIGN OVER, ain't it?

No reign is given to LIARS. Liars get BLINDED and blindsided by God. God is AGAINST liars and lying.

It's pretty hard to claim that the spirit of disobedience is legally obedient. That is just not a credible claim whatsoever. That's just not a happening deal. Indwelling sin/evil present is lawful??? Obedient??? Saved??? Just WHO are we trying to fool? Ourselves? 1 John 1:8.

Do you see the contentions yet? The contentions with God, that we bear in our own flesh, caused by the spirit of disobedience, of indwelling sin, of evil present with us, of our adversary? Romans 7:17-21, 1 John 3:8.

Do you claim these workings as not there? As "obedient?" Faithful? Natural? No problemO?

I think such Spiritual Blindness is actually entertaining to God, to see just how foolish such claims are.

Psalm 2:4
He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

Oh, look! Another "believer" claiming their indwelling sin and evil present with them is faithfully obedient! hahahahahahahaha

It makes me laugh just thinking about Him Laughing.

Blind you are, as Yoda might say.

 

[Kidron]

A little night treasure from our Heavenly Father:


Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

=
Smaller,.

IM not certain what bible version you are using, but after reading how your chosen translation has completely destroyed that verse, its no wonder that what you are writing and writing and writing, sounds like a bad LSD trip.
Really.
Its sounds crazy.
So, my advice, is that you burn your bible version, as its not a bible, its a book of twisted mess that is obviously not helping you, smaller.

Now, Here is the verse as it should be understood, and it has nothing in common with this "thing" you posted.

• 
  Romans 11:32
  For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

 

[smaller]

=
Smaller,.

IM not certain what bible version you are using, but after reading how your chosen translation has completely destroyed that verse, its no wonder that what you are writing and writing and writing, sounds like a bad LSD trip.

I have a quick litmus test that I apply to every phony christian apologist. IF they deny a single jot, tittle or Word of God, they have an instant BRAND of irrelevance put upon them. These kind of people I call WORD KILLERS.

Really.
Its sounds crazy.
So, my advice, is that you burn your bible version, as its not a bible, its a book of twisted mess that is obviously not helping you, smaller.

You'll have to do much better than that Kidron. In two posts now you've tried to toss the Word of God aside. I'd call that a SHAME. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4.

Live UP to His Words, not attempts to toss them aside, which is a work of the enemy.

Now, Here is the verse as it should be understood, and it has nothing in common with this "thing" you posted.

• 
  Romans 11:32
  For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

I cited the NIV Romans 11:32. Which is not one bit different than what Mark 4:15 says. Both Romans 11:32 in the NIV and Mark 4:15 are identical statements.

Now, how much more Word are we going to throw in the TRASH in Kidron's behalf today? Why did you NOT RESPOND to the WORD TRASHING already given to you in my last post to you and rather ignore it for yet another attack?

Let me just say right now, NONE of it will be tossed. Not one jot, tittle, or Word.

As to your 'crazy' claims, I'd consider myself in very good company:

Acts 26:
24 At this point Festus interrupted Paul’s defense. “You are out of your mind, Paul!” he shouted. “Your great learning is driving you insane.”

John 10:
19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.
20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?

Hey, don't you say the same thing about Jesus, when He Speaks Mark 4:15?

 

[JLB]

Yeah, we've done this drill before. Even though it's right there to see, you deny it's there to see. It's quite an amazing thing to watch your open blatant denial with your claim compared to Paul's own words:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Ok let's discuss this scripture line upon line.


Paul used a idiomatic phrase which says... "a thorn in the flesh", which is a non literal expression that refers to a source of frustration or irritation.

• The non literal expression is: "a thorn in the flesh".
• The literal reality it refers to is: a messenger of Satan to buffet me.

Do you believe a thorn in the flesh is a literal thorn in Paul's flesh?

If you believe this then, please abandon the idea that Satan was in Paul's flesh, since the "thorn" he refers to is a literal thorn and not Satan.

If you believe the phrase "a thorn in the flesh" is not a literal thorn, then we must conclude it refers to some else, and that something else is a messenger of Satan to buffet Paul.

Not a messenger of Satan "in Paul's flesh".

Your version is a mixture of the non literal and the literal.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Hey, don't you say the same thing about Jesus, when He Speaks Mark 4:15?

Mark 4:15 refers to some unbelievers who didn't believe the Gospel, because Satan came to them from where he was and stole the word of God from them.

13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? 14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts.

• Satan stole the Gospel Message from this group who was hard hearted.

16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness;17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble.

• Satan did not steal the Gospel message from this group who received the word.

18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

• Satan did not steal the Gospel message from this group who received the word.

20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.”

• Satan did not steal the Gospel message from this group who received the word.

If Satan was not able to steal the Gospel Message from these unbelievers, so that they heard the word and became believers, then it seems his ability is limited to only a few.


There goes your theory that Satan is in everybody's flesh.




JLB

 

[JLB]

I'm certain that Paul's sin was "of the devil," 1 John 3:8,

What sin are you referring to.

Please show us what sin you are accusing Paul of.

 

[ezrider]

Having evil present with us is a hard line scriptural fact ez.

It would appear to me the only reason you keep repeating this over and over and over again, is because you do not know how to listen to what has been said. You hear only what you want to hear. I have not denied that evil is present with us, nor have I denied that evil is present with me. I have accepted that as fact. I have accepted that by Faith. I have borne witness to its effects. You have not heard me deny this fact. For I am man of sin, a son bound for perdition, saved by the Grace of God.

But you continue to preach your word from the wayside, and you can't tell us what the word is that Satan steals from your heart; Do we then find the blind leading the blind into the ditch? Maybe what has been stolen from you is what happens to the believer when they understand and accept the fact that evil will remain present in the flesh as long as we remain in this vessel made of clay.

Spin doctoring doesn't work well with me ez, as you may know.

We study the scriptures, the WORD OF GOD, and IF the WORD OF GOD presents Satan, then we pay attention.

Do you see how subtle your spin doctoring above is, claiming to be studying Satan when we are in fact studying the Word of God?

Sorry to deflate your ego, but there was no spin doctoring on my part, nor was I being subtle about it at all. I said you and Chopper were leading this study on Satan. You said in your own words, "if the word of God presents Satan, then we pay attention." By your own words you said you are doing a Bible study on Satan. The Bible presents Satan, and YOU pay attention.

So if one were to look in the mirror, they would realize the subtle spin doctoring comment was a form of projection for denying the very subject they teach on, and we see in kind a little bit of the workings of the terminal agitation upon smaller. So when I said you and Chopper were leading this study on Satan; What is it that agitates you so much that you would deny it and agree with it all at the same time?

Notwithstanding the phony setup claim above, Paul employs a multi reasoned approach.

So what your saying is you could not quote from the law and prophets where Paul said he found a law that said when he did good, evil was present with him. Paul said he FOUND a law, he did not say he used some multi-reasoned approach: that is your spin. Paul said he FOUND a law. What law did Paul find?

 

[smaller]

I have not denied that evil is present with us, nor have I denied that evil is present with me. But you continue to preach your word from the wayside, and you can't tell us what the word is that Satan steals from your heart;

There are numerous observations in this thread ez. The number of artful dodges are just as numerous, if not moreso.

Few believers are interested in the fact that they are sinners, that evil thoughts are sin, and that their sin is of the devil. That's pretty much the bottom line. AND if we understand that the devil IS involved, then we also know why the resistance to the facts are so obvious. Because it's not a matter of "just the person."

Sorry to deflate your ego, but there was no spin doctoring on my part, nor was I being subtle about it at all. I said you and Chopper were leading this study on Satan.

No, you tried a common and petty form of spin doctoring. So move on. When we study scriptures we are not studying Satan. We are studying scriptures, Gods Words. IF Gods Words present Satan, his works and ways we are still studying Gods Words.

So the whine from you about "lifting up Satan" is just more obfuscating nonsensical accusation pointless hogwash.

 

[smaller]

What sin are you referring to.

Please show us what sin you are accusing Paul of.

I've cited Paul's words. How many times are you and I going to observe that IF Satan tempts internally, in the mind, that the most sinful entity that ever existed is internal to do so.

NOW what SIN has Satan not committed? 1 John 3:8

Do you see how ignorant your question is?