Bible Study The Work of God: Terminal Agitation Ending in Silence

[JLB]

Come on JLB, you know very well that where sin is

Yes, we have sin dwelling in our flesh that was passed down from Adam.

Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
Romans 7:20



13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? 14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness;17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. 18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.” Mark 4:13-20


The parable of the Sower teaches us that Satan "comes" from wherever he is, to where the Gospel is being preached, to steal the word from those unbeliever's who hearts are hardened, like a well worn path.

• This should be evidence that Satan is not already present in the flesh and in the mind of these people who have yet to believe, because he has to come , from where he is, to where they are.

• He doesn't steal the word from those unbeliever's whose heart is likened to stony ground.
• He doesn't steal the word from those unbeliever's whose heart is likened to being sown among the thorns.
• He doesn't steal the word from the hearts of those who are likened to good ground.

My only point to this, is Satan does not dwell in our flesh and in our minds.


Satan and his fallen angels are called against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Ephesians 6:12


I do believe Satan comes to the earth to deceive and influence mankind.

I do believe Satan can enter a person who is an unbeliever, or a believer who has turned away from Christ, and become a traitor, like Judas Iscariot.

Never the less, I don't see any scriptures that teach us that Satan dwells in flesh and mind of Spirit filled Christians.



JLB

 

[JLB]

You seem to be entirely unable to derive that temptation is internal and that means the adversary works internally, IN THE MIND.

He may work internally in the mind of unbelievers.

He may work internally in your mind.

He doesn't work internally in my mind and certainly didn't work internally in the mind of Paul.

Paul warned us about living our life according to the flesh -

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1


I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. Galatians 2:20


Those who keep themselves from immorality and sinful behavior, can not be touched by the wicked one.


We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18





JLB

 

[smaller]

He may work internally in the mind of unbelievers.

He may work internally in your mind.

He doesn't work internally in my mind and certainly didn't work internally in the mind of Paul.

I'd suggest your scriptural sights are stolen from and you're a great example of it.

 

[JLB]

I'd suggest your scriptural sights are stolen from and you're a great example of it.

You will have to do better than accuse me of something, in the face of such overwhelming truth from the scriptures.


Paul warned us about living our life according to the flesh -

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1


I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. Galatians 2:20


Those who keep themselves from immorality and sinful behavior, can not be touched by the wicked one.


We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18


After all, you are the claiming Satan is in your flesh and in your mind, so we can only deduce that what you are saying comes from him.




JLB

 

[smaller]

You will have to do better than accuse me of something, in the face of such overwhelming truth from the scriptures.

You're not listening. I don't accuse you of anything.

Satan steals Word from the heart. That's all there is to this matter.

Jesus said "every Word" of God applies to us, Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4.

therefore

Mark 4:15 applies to US.

IF you don't understand it, you have in fact been stolen from and can not hear.

No harm no foul to you. The operations of Satan are REAL and exemplified by exactly what you are expressing, which is in fact NOT YOU as a believer.

Hard concept, I understand.

 

[JLB]

Satan steals Word from the heart. That's all there is to this matter.

I agree that Satan steals the Gospel Message from those hard hearted unbeliever's, as per Mark 4:15

• He doesn't steal the word from those unbeliever's whose heart is likened to stony ground.

• He doesn't steal the word from those unbeliever's whose heart is likened to being sown among the thorns.

• He doesn't steal the word from the hearts of those who are likened to good ground.

Paul warned us about living our life according to the flesh -

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1


I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. Galatians 2:20


Those who keep themselves from immorality and sinful behavior, can not be touched by the wicked one.


We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18


If you claim to have Satan dwelling in your flesh, and in your mind, you must realize that many people will reject what you say, thinking that you are speaking from Satan, rather than from Christ. Just saying...


After all, you are the claiming Satan is in your flesh and in your mind, so we can only deduce that what you are saying comes from him.




JLB

 

[smaller]

Did Paul have a messenger of Satan in his own flesh? Of course. 2 Cor. 12:7 makes this clear beyond any denial.

So, some claim that "scripture" doesn't apply to us.

Again, WRONG. ALL scripture applies to us INCLUDING Paul's scripture. 2 Tim. 3:16.

And again and again, the DEMONstration of theft is clear by denial of and theft of Word, claiming IT DOESN'T APPLY. And those who make those claims are being actively STOLEN from by an agent that Paul terms, 'no more I.'

And yes, the devil will scream to all hell that this is NOT the case.

 

[smaller]

Some other common forms of theft and deception of Satan IN believers:

Believers who claim their EVIL DEFILING thoughts are not SIN.

Common sense would indicate that Paul says indwelling sin caused evil/lustful thoughts in him, in Romans 7:7-13 and directly links that activity to SIN indwelling his flesh.

Jesus said exactly the same things in Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Matt. 5:28.

But believers are sooo blinded and stolen from that they can not CONNECT DOT on this simple subject.

They will instead DENY that indwelling sin causes ANY lustful thoughts or illegal thoughts in them as it did in Paul in Romans 7:7-13. They will DENY that such thoughts are caused by an agency that Paul himself termed 'NO MORE I' in Romans 7:17 & 20. And they will, almost like clockwork, DENY that that factual SIN is of the DEVIL. 1 John 3:8.

They will even claim their own selves are the "evil present" with them, Romans 7:21, before they'd EVER connect their own internal sin thoughts to the DEVIL and the activity of Mark 4:15.

That's how utterly BLIND and DECEIVED believers are, for no uncertain fact.

I think such will still be saved. But the 'resistance' party is meant to be aroused and provoked by POINTING OUT THE SCRIPTURAL FACTS. Romans 7:13, 1 Cor. 15:56, Romans 3:19.

And the resistors, the unseen, will automatically REBEL in the flesh, thereby PROVING The Gospel as TRUE.

 

[Douglas Summers]

In the second course of engagement with Gods Words, God delivers the very first law. The essence of all law is command(s) coupled with penalty(s) for failure(s). And in that first law we have both of these law components, of command and penalty:

Death came before the Written Law. It was not a law to live by, but a law to die by. It was written to condemn man so that man knew what brought death. The purpose of the Law was to send the condemned man to Christ.(Rom. 5:20-21) (Rom. 5:12-21).

Gen. 2:
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Freely means to choose (free will).

 

[ezrider]

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Much of the OP hangs upon this verse. It has been cited over and over again in conjunction with Mark 4:15, seemingly to glorify the works of Satan, but that is not what is important nor pertinent to the question that I ask in this post.

Since smaller and Chopper are leading this study on Satan, then I ask only one simple question of you:

When Paul writes "I find then a law," then what law was Paul quoting from? What was the law that Paul found? Can you provide the Old Testament account of what Paul claimed to find in the law, that when he would do good, evil is present with him?

This is a Bible study after all, so providing the actual scripture that Paul was referring to when he made that statement might go a long way to establishing the truth of the matter. What Law did Paul find?

.

 

[JLB]

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Much of the OP hangs upon this verse. It has been cited over and over again in conjunction with Mark 4:15, seemingly to glorify the works of Satan, but that is not what is important nor pertinent to the question that I ask in this post.

Since smaller and Chopper are leading this study on Satan, then I ask only one simple question of you:

When Paul writes "I find then a law," then what law was Paul quoting from? What was the law that Paul found? Can you provide the Old Testament account of what Paul claimed to find in the law, that when he would do good, evil is present with him?

This is a Bible study after all, so providing the actual scripture that Paul was referring to when he made that statement might go a long way to establishing the truth of the matter. What Law did Paul find?

.

Yes sir.

Paul is specifically referring to those that "know" the law in Romans 7, and is making a legal argument to his countrymen after the flesh.

Paul is referring to when he was under the law and describing the struggle he had while under the law, to do what the law said, before he became a Christian.

That is the context of Romans 7.

Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? Roman 7:1-2.


JLB

 

[ezrider]

Satan steals Word from the heart. That's all there is to this matter.

Jesus said "every Word" of God applies to us, Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4.

therefore

Mark 4:15 applies to US.

Why yes, oh man of sin, "every Word" applies to US. To you, to me, to all indeed, for we each after our own nature were made a Man of Sin. So there is no more reason to let that word be stolen from your heart. When we come to the conclusion that we are the Man of Sin, and that is the way our maker has chosen to bring us forth, then the workings of Satan will have been destroyed, and he can no longer steal the Word that was sown.

"Every Word"

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


Have you swallowed those words for yourself yet? Every word, means every word, oh man of sin.


2 Thessalonians 2:5-8
Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Now I would like to point out that the OP tends to attribute many things to the workings and power of Satan, but just to be clear in this instance, it is GOD that sends them strong delusion, AND it is GOD who CHOOSES their delusion.


Isaiah 66:4-5
I also will choose their delusions,
and will bring their fears upon them;
because when I called, none did answer;
when I spake, they did not hear:
but they did evil before mine eyes,
and chose that in which I delighted not.
Hear the word of the Lord, ye that tremble at his word;
Your brethren that hated you,
that cast you out for my name's sake, said,
Let the Lord be glorified:
but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.


.

 

[JLB]

Did Paul have a messenger of Satan in his own flesh? Of course. 2 Cor. 12:7 makes this clear beyond any denial.

Paul never had a messenger of Satan in his flesh.

2 Corinthians 12:7 teaches us otherwise.

JLB

 

[ezrider]

Yes sir.

Paul is specifically referring to those that "know" the law in Romans 7, and is making a legal argument to his countrymen after the flesh.

Paul is referring to when he was under the law and describing the struggle he had while under the law, to do what the law said, before he became a Christian.

That is the context of Romans 7.

Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? Roman 7:1-2.


JLB

Sorry JLB, but that did not get to the point of the question that I asked Chopper or smaller to provide. If you were to quote me Romans 1:26-27 as something that Paul wrote, then I have no doubt that you would be able to provide me with the old testament laws from Leviticus and other places about man laying with man.

Likewise, Paul said he found a law that said when he did good, evil was present with him. Paul did not just make this up. Paul's statement is based upon what was written in the law and the prophets. As the author or as the co-authors of this thread, I would think that they should be able to provide the scriptures from the law and the prophets that Paul was referring to.

 

[ezrider]

I'm a fighter.

I am a fighter. Let's look at that statement for a moment.

If I am a fighter, then who is it that I am fighting against? It is written that there was a war in heaven, and Michael and angels fought against Satan and his angels, but was I called to fight that heavenly war? No, I was not called to be a fighter in some war. I have been called unto Mt Zion and the heavenly Jerusalem, I was called unto the place of my rest.

Isaiah 66:1-2
Thus saith the Lord,
The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool:
where is the house that ye build unto me?
and where is the place of my rest?
For all those things hath mine hand made,
and all those things have been, saith the Lord:
but to this man will I look,
even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit,
and trembleth at my word.

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

If you are a fighter, then whom do you fight against? Do you wrestle with the Lord like Jacob, demanding a blessing? If you have not come into your rest, and stand yet a fighter, then you might find yourself as one fighting AGAINST ZION.

Isaiah 29:8
It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth;
but he awaketh, and his soul is empty:
or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh;
but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite:
so shall the multitude of all the nations be,
that fight against mount Zion.


Isaiah 30:15
For thus saith the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel;
In returning and rest shall ye be saved;
in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength:
and ye would not.

 

[Douglas Summers]

When Paul writes "I find then a law," then what law was Paul quoting from? What was the law that Paul found? Can you provide the Old Testament account of what Paul claimed to find in the law, that when he would do good, evil is present with him?

Gen. 6:5-6. The Law of sin in his members! (Rom.7:24-25) (Rom. 8:1-4) (Rom. 5:12-21) It is evident by the Scriptures that it is a law that humanity is sinful. And that further, the new man after Christ is free of sin's nature. And the two do battle, but Victory is assured. (Rom. 8:1-4) (Gal. 5:16-18). This law of sin is self evident if we are truthful.

 

[JLB]

Sorry JLB, but that did not get to the point of the question that I asked Chopper or smaller to provide. If you were to quote me Romans 1:26-27 as something that Paul wrote, then I have no doubt that you would be able to provide me with the old testament laws from Leviticus and other places about man laying with man.

Likewise, Paul said he found a law that said when he did good, evil was present with him. Paul did not just make this up. Paul's statement is based upon what was written in the law and the prophets. As the author or as the co-authors of this thread, I would think that they should be able to provide the scriptures from the law and the prophets that Paul was referring to.

Ok.




The only point I was making is: Paul was referring to himself when he was under the law in Romans 7:13-25, as his discourse was to them that knew the law.

Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? Romans 7:1


Paul was relating to the condition of a Jew who was under the law, as his "legal argument" illustrates.

Here is his language -

But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good...


Paul was referring to his past life as a Pharisee, trying to keep the law, without the Spirit of Christ, not his present condition as an apostle and writer of the new testament.


13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:13-25




JLB

 

[JLB]

Gen. 6:5-6. The Law of sin in his members! (Rom.7:24-25) (Rom. 8:1-4) (Rom. 5:12-21) It is evident by the Scriptures that it is a law that humanity is sinful. And that further, the new man after Christ is free of sin's nature. And the two do battle, but Victory is assured. (Rom. 8:1-4) (Gal. 5:16-18). This law of sin is self evident if we are truthful.

You make some good points.

However, when you say "free" of sin's nature, do you mean with condition, or do you mean "free" as in no longer has a sin nature?

I believe we are free in the sense we exercise our God Given dominion over the ability of sin to manifest it's lustful deeds through our life.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Romans 6:12-14


and again


12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13


The choice is our's as always, to obey or not.


However, if we are walking in the flesh, and living our life according to the sinful desires of the flesh, then we are under the dominion of sin, in which we will struggle with doing the things that we do not want to do.

17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. Galatians 5:17



JLB

 

[JLB]

Paul was referring to his past life as a Pharisee, trying to keep the law, without the Spirit of Christ, not his present condition as an apostle and writer of the new testament.

The other option could very well be that Paul was relating to how he was trying to live his new Christian life early on, before Christ was formed within him, and began live and express Himself in fullness through Paul.

IOW before Paul became crucified with Christ, so that the life he lived, was the expression of the living Christ within him.

I believe all of us can relate to this.

The Lord in His wisdom allows us to struggle with certain things after we are born again, and filled with His Spirit, so that we ourselves can experience the victory of overcoming sin, Satan and the flesh.


This will serve us well later on as we can teach and help other's to do the same, through our testimony, which is what Paul was doing in Romans 7.


Whether he was relating his past life as a Pharisee without Christ, or his early life as a Christian, Paul was reaching out to and relating to his native countrymen, and the condition we all have to face, and struggle with, until we learn how to overcome and exercise dominion over the flesh.


This point is clearly illustrated from the old testament.

Now these are the nations which the Lord left, that He might test Israel by them, that is, all who had not known any of the wars in Canaan 2 (this was only so that the generations of the children of Israel might be taught to know war, at least those who had not formerly known it), Judges 3:1-2



JLB

 

[smaller]

Death came before the Written Law. It was not a law to live by, but a law to die by. It was written to condemn man so that man knew what brought death. The purpose of the Law was to send the condemned man to Christ.(Rom. 5:20-21) (Rom. 5:12-21).

Romans 7:10
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Difficult concept to understand.

Gen. 2:
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Freely means to choose (free will).

You miss the point entirely. The law was not directed at MAN only. Had you followed the thread's details you'd know that already.

Here's the short version so you can catch up.

1 Tim. 1:9 says the law is for sinners.

The devil is a sinner. 1 John 3:8.

The devil is moved by the law, the Word of God, to perform adverse work internally, in man, against the law. Mark 4:15, Romans 7:7-13

That is WHY Paul penned the reality of Romans 7:10. There is more going on with the law than meets surface eyes. There are other parties involved that are not man.

Adam didn't and couldn't make a choice for a party who was not him who was ALSO involved with that first law, Satan. It wouldn't have mattered IF Adam/Eve Ate or not. The mere THOUGHT of violating that law, inserted into the mind of Adam/Eve from the tempter which DID happen and was evil and defiling unto them ALL, and would have been sufficient unto condemnation and death.

When anyone reads the law or any Word of God and does not realize that Mark 4:15 is a present reality, they have in fact been stolen from in their own minds by a party that is not them. Satan.

And no Douglas, there is no choice or "freewill" to obey or be legal when the resistor is also in action with man, to resist Gods Words. The facts above are the basis for salvation by faith, through Grace and Mercy of God in Christ, alone.

IT is the believers themselves, who think after salvation they became legal or obedient, that have themselves been also and again, deceived. The indwelling sin and evil present with NO MAN is legal or obedient, ever. Romans 7:17-21.