There is an alternative to trinitarianism/ non-trinitarianism.

[Dmytro]

First, we should be more accurate and understand that it was the Son that was with God for eternity past, not Jesus.

Could you elaborate on the difference between the Son and Jesus?

Second, if the Son existed for eternity past and equal to God, then it necessarily follows that he is also God. It cannot be otherwise. Absolute existence is an attribute of YHWH alone, and to be equal with YHWH necessarily means being YHWH, who is the one and only true God. There is no other way to reconcile the biblical fact of monotheism and three divine, coequal, coeternal persons apart from the Trinity.

 

[Mustard Seed]

I believe the scripture is in Joel.
But like I said, Jesus has come in the name of YHWH. So, to call on the name of Jesus is to call on the name of YHWH.

But, there's an issue, theologically.

Philippians 1:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

 

[LeviR]

But, there's an issue, theologically.

Philippians 1:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

No problem.
God gave Jesus the name above all names, YHWH.
The name Jesus (YHWH saves).
Every tongue confess Jesus is YHWH.

 

[Mustard Seed]

No problem.
God gave Jesus the name above all names, YHWH.
The name Jesus (YHWH saves).
Every tongue confess Jesus is YHWH.

Do you believe that the YHWH that Moses saw was the Father or the Son?

 

[Free]

Could you elaborate on the difference between the Son and Jesus?

The Son existed for eternity past, also known as the Word. Jesus was the name given when the Son "became flesh and dwelt among us."

Luk 1:31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. (ESV)

 

[LeviR]

Do you believe that the YHWH that Moses saw was the Father or the Son?

First, don’t miss, God gave His name to Jesus.

 

[Mustard Seed]

First, don’t miss, God gave His name to Jesus.

Absolutely. This falls both directions of the discussion, well. This said, would you say that Moses saw the Father or the Son?

 

[LeviR]

Do you believe that the YHWH that Moses saw was the Father or the Son?

It was the Angel YHWH

 

[Mustard Seed]

It was the Angel YHWH

You are aware that the Hebrew for that word "Elohim", is properly rendered as The Messenger of YHWH with the Name of YHWH written within Him... in all of those instances?

 

[Dmytro]

Mustard Seed LeviR Your discussion is really interesting. I'm following.

Hmmmmmmmm.... Fair enough. So, theologically we can now say that The Jehovah's Witnesses might even be more careful about mixing the names of YHWH and Jesus. I bring this up, because they really only made 2 changes to scripture. The first in their NWT was to change John 1 to "a god", instead of the typical rendering "Was God".

And, by the way, they are technically correct. Since there are no capital letters in Greek and there is a definite article both in Greek and English I would translate John 1:1 as:

In the beginning was the word, and the word was with the god, and the word was a god

with the meaning:

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was the same as God.

The second thing they do is to re-insert the name of YHWH wherever it properly belongs. Most translations reduce the name YHWH to Lord, but this brings up the same confusion that the Hebrew word "elohim" can bring up.

This is how they rendered Romans 10:13

Romans 10:13 'For "everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved"' (NWT).

Also correct. And since Yehoshua means 'Yahweh saves' so by calling on the name of Jesus someone indirectly calls on the name of Yahweh.

They rendered it correctly, per the root Greek. The "LORD" at that location is indeed YHWH. If I had a scripture that further asserted this, would you be interested?

Yes

 

[LeviR]

You are aware that the Hebrew for that word "Elohim", is properly rendered as The Messenger of YHWH with the Name of YHWH written within Him... in all of those instances?

The word Elohim is plural and refers to “Mighty ones”. But it also refers to the One God.

 

[Mustard Seed]

Mustard Seed LeviR Your discussion is really interesting. I'm following.

And, by the way, they are technically correct. Since there are no capital letters in Greek and there is a definite article both in Greek and English I would translate John 1:1 as:

In the beginning was the word, and the word was with the god, and the word was a god

with the meaning:

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was the same as God


Also correct. And since Yehoshua means 'Yahweh saves' so by calling on the name of Jesus someone indirectly calls on the name of Yahweh.

Yes

I appreciate your honesty and clarification. Did you see my earlier post to you about the Salvic implications of the book of Hebrews... I had to re-post it for formatting.

 

[Mustard Seed]

The word Elohim is plural and refers to “Mighty ones”. But it also refers to the One God.

It's kind of a lame word in the sense that after the Diaspora, the Jews stopped writing the actual name of "The Living Breathing Great I Am that I Am".

It can mean Judge, God, Angel, Messenger and indeed as you said, Mighty Man.

It has caused deeeeep disagreement on this very point.

 

[Dmytro]

You are aware that the Hebrew for that word "Elohim", is properly rendered as The Messenger of YHWH with the Name of YHWH written within Him... in all of those instances?

Could you provide some source? I don't see it in BLB (BlueLetterBible) interlinear.

 

[LeviR]

You are aware that the Hebrew for that word "Elohim", is properly rendered as The Messenger of YHWH with the Name of YHWH written within Him... in all of those instances?

In the beginning the Mighty ones created the heaven and the earth.
Then the singular pronoun “He” is used.
Which means the One God used the Mighty Ones to do His work.

 

[LeviR]

It's kind of a lame word in the sense that after the Diaspora, the Jews stopped writing the actual name of "The Living Breathing Great I Am that I Am".

It can mean Judge, God, Angel, Messenger and indeed as you said, Mighty Man.

It has caused deeeeep disagreement on this very point.

I believe “I am what I am” refers to the immutability of God. The same as He was, He still is, and always will be.

 

[Dmytro]

In the beginning the Mighty ones created the heaven and the earth.
Then the singular pronoun “He” is used.
Which means the One God used the Mighty Ones to do His work.

This is interesting. Then the Mighty ones must be of the same nature with the Mighty One. What if they actually were the Word through whom as John testifies God created everything and the Holy Spirit?

 

[Mustard Seed]

Could you provide some source? I don't see it in BLB (BlueLetterBible) interlinear.

Sorry for the delay. I tried to format it as effectively as possible. Link to site that I used. <-

Psalm 34:7 "The angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear him, and delivers them"

04397 ​ Brown-Driver-Briggs' Definition 1) messenger, representative 1a) messenger 1b) angel 1c) the theophanic angel malʼâk​

mal·’aḵ- מַלְאַךְ־ The angel Noun​

03068​ Brown-Driver-Briggs' Definition Jehovah = “the existing One” 1) the proper name of the one true God 1a) unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of H136 Strong's Definition From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069

Yah·weh יְהוָ֓ה of the LORD Noun​

Genesis 22:15 The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, “I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son,

 

[Mustard Seed]

This is interesting. Then the Mighty ones must be of the same nature with the Mighty One. What if they actually were the Word through whom as John testifies God created everything and the Holy Spirit?

Are you aware that the correct name of YHWH exerts the sound of "Breathing" when spoken? The Jewish individuals that protect the name revealed this much and no more.

 

[LeviR]

This is interesting. Then the Mighty ones must be of the same nature with the Mighty One. What if they actually were the Word through whom as John testifies God created everything and the Holy Spirit?

The might ones are angels. The Word refers to what is spoken. But it also refers to the One who speaks. As a name of he who spoke.
The word is spoken by God, and is God, as one of His names.