There is an alternative to trinitarianism/ non-trinitarianism.

[Dmytro]

@Da

I had referenced a post earlier... this text is a link to it. I would love to hear your opinion on it. <-

There’s too much in that post I need some time to think. And where this ’The Messenger of YH-H with the name of Y-WH written in Him’ is from?

 

[Mustard Seed]

There’s too much in that post I need some time to think. And where this ’The Messenger of YH-H with the name of Y-WH written in Him’ is from?

Whenever you see "The Angel of The Lord" written in places that reveal man seeing God, it is called a "Pre-Incarnate Christophany" or a "Theophany".

Examples: Before Sodom and Gomorrah: Abraham speaks to a "MAN" that he feeds and calls YHWH.
Jacob wrestles with this "Messenger".
Israel is encamped by this "Messenger".
Abraham sees this "Messenger".
etc... etc...

As for the Messenger... The actual Hebrew that is frustratingly rendered "Angel of the Lord" in most Bibles actually breaks apart to Render mal·’aḵ- / מַלְאַךְ־ / The angel / The Theophoric Messenger ... Yah·weh /
יְהוָ֓ה / of the LORD / Which is to say in the name of YHWH, but, that isn't how Hebrew was spoken (Grammatically speaking, per the Paleo Hebrew Grammar) You wouldn't be arriving at a place "In the Name of DMYTO", in Paleo Hebrew, it would be more precise to say... You arrived "With the name of DMYTO written within you".
Why so odd? Job is the most ancient book in the Bible.
Job 19:26-27 “Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God; Whom I myself shall behold, And whom my eyes will see and not another. My heart faints within me!”

Here, we see Job actually saying: When He Dies, though apart from his Body, he will see God, which makes his heart flutter with excitement!

So, Paleo Hebrews did believe in the Immortal Soul... and were obviously VERY spiritual! To Honor a person and the value of their Soul, they would say that YOUR NAME IS WRITTEN WITHIN YOU (IE, You, as a PERSON, are an Immortal Soul, contained within a Body, within a Material World)

Some examples of this are:

Genesis 22:15 The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, “I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son,

Psalm 34:7 "The angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear him, and delivers them"

Spoiler

Sorry for the delay. I tried to format it as effectively as possible. Link to site that I used. <-

Psalm 34:7 "The angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear him, and delivers them"

04397​ Brown-Driver-Briggs' Definition 1) messenger, representative 1a) messenger 1b) angel 1c) the theophanic angel malʼâk​

mal·’aḵ- מַלְאַךְ־ The angel Noun​

03068​ Brown-Driver-Briggs' Definition Jehovah = “the existing One” 1) the proper name of the one true God 1a) unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of H136 Strong's Definition From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069

Yah·weh יְהוָ֓ה of the LORD Noun​

Genesis 22:15 The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, “I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son,

 

[Dmytro]

The Word, which was with God and was God (John 1:1), existed only before the Word took on flesh and was birthed of a woman.
The Word became Jesus at conception.

So it’s kind of a:
1. the Word is in the beginning with God
2. the Word who is God ceases to exist at Jesus’ conception
3. Jesus who is God starts to exist at his conception
4. At some point of time Jesus who is God ceases to exist
5. the Word who is God again starts to exist

something like this?

I’m by no means supporting this, just trying to clarify your beliefs.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Title 'God' properly belongs to Yahweh God, the Father. He is the only true God. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are persons the same as God the Father by their nature. I'm not discussing basics like the deity of Jesus here. So, sorry if I only answer what in my opinion helps to clarify OP.

The total eternal Power over the universe and everything in it can be held by no other but God .
That's a yes or a no by the way ?
There is no scriptural basis to claim that any other but God Himself has ALL POWER forever over heaven and earth .
The author of these Words is not God the Father who came to us as the Man of Sorrows who came to one time share all our experiences, suffer all our temptations, in the compassion of His Love.
He is the Risen God no longer divested of All the Power & Glory He gave up to come to us clothed in a plain coat of humility.
According to scripture there is the only one who has ALL POWER & ALL GLORY, God Himself.
If you say the three are not one, then by definition you are claiming that today and for eternity the Father has been stripped of His power and relegated to a powerless back seat and a weaker position demonstrating your own spiritual discernment to be inches deep & miles wide.


Mat 28:18
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

 

[Dmytro]

Whenever you see "The Angel of The Lord" written in places that reveal man seeing God, it is called a "Pre-Incarnate Christophany" or a "Theophany".

Examples: Before Sodom and Gomorrah: Abraham speaks to a "MAN" that he feeds and calls YHWH.
Jacob wrestles with this "Messenger".
Israel is encamped by this "Messenger".
Abraham sees this "Messenger".
etc... etc...

As for the Messenger... The actual Hebrew that is frustratingly rendered "Angel of the Lord" in most Bibles actually breaks apart to Render mal·’aḵ- / מַלְאַךְ־ / The angel / The Theophoric Messenger ... Yah·weh /
יְהוָ֓ה / of the LORD / Which is to say in the name of YHWH, but, that isn't how Hebrew was spoken (Grammatically speaking, per the Paleo Hebrew Grammar) You wouldn't be arriving at a place "In the Name of DMYTO", in Paleo Hebrew, it would be more precise to say... You arrived "With the name of DMYTO written within you".
Why so odd? Job is the most ancient book in the Bible.
Job 19:26-27 “Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God; Whom I myself shall behold, And whom my eyes will see and not another. My heart faints within me!”

Here, we see Job actually saying: When He Dies, though apart from his Body, he will see God, which makes his heart flutter with excitement!

So, Paleo Hebrews did believe in the Immortal Soul... and were obviously VERY spiritual! To Honor a person and the value of their Soul, they would say that YOUR NAME IS WRITTEN WITHIN YOU (IE, You, as a PERSON, are an Immortal Soul, contained within a Body, within a Material World)

Some examples of this are:

Genesis 22:15 The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, “I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son,

Psalm 34:7 "The angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear him, and delivers them"

It might be the case. It might also be that a messenger of Yahweh was an actual angel speaking and acting from Yahweh's name. What is more important in my opinion is that it might be that it was Jesus acting under name of Yahweh throughout the whole OT while Yahweh God the Father kept himself hidden and only shewed himself or acted that through Jesus. This is supported by Jesus’ words. Isaiah saw Jesus’ glory in the temple, in Matt. 23 Jesus says he was the one sending prophets to Israel and he said ‘your house is left to you empty’ while leaving the temple like it was he under Yahweh’s name and not Yahweh himself in the temple.

 

[Mustard Seed]

So it’s kind of a:
1. the Word is in the beginning with God
2. the Word who is God ceases to exist at Jesus’ conception
3. Jesus who is God starts to exist at his conception
4. At some point of time Jesus who is God ceases to exist
5. the Word who is God again starts to exist

something like this?

I’m by no means supporting this, just trying to clarify your beliefs.

1: Correction to the spelling of "Theophanic" ... autocorrect hit that word and spelled it wrong, above.

Now, I'm not trying to cut in, on Hopeful's post. I just wanted to express what we have discussed per your logical discourse here.

I'm going to cut through all the Red Tape and Just Say it.

1: God pre-exists all things by INFINITY. He has NEVER NOT been.
2: God is Tri-Cot, in that He has a Body, Soul and Spirit
3: God's Body is known to be His Son, God's Soul is known to be HIS HOLY SPIRIT, God's Uncontainable Being... Essence, Infinite Spiritual Substance is known to be THE FATHER.
4: You can't see the "Invisible Substance or Infinite Spirit of God"... The Father
5: When you See God in scripture at ANY place, you are seeing His Body (Physical Manifestation / Presence / The Son)
6: God Created everything that exists in all dimensions, The Heavenly Realm and The Realm of our Universe containing Earth, as a physical Being... that is to say, His Essence Created and Manipulated Matter "Through the USE of HIS BODY (SON)".
7. Why is this so stinking important to refer to TriUne God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Because before God had created any "Fellowship" of any kind, He has ALWAYS had a Loving, Relational Relationship Between Father, Son and Holy Spirit. While "we" are much more simple, God is of infinite Magnitudes much more Complex.
8. Why is it a relief that we are made in His Image? Because it's pleasant to know that when we get to Heaven, and one unknown day when He comes back to earth... we won't be terrified to find that God is some PURPLE Octopus Creature with Hands for Eyes, Toes for ears, Swords for Hands and, well... etc... etc...
9. The Greeks called the Sum of all Truth, Substance, Wisdom, Existence etc... etc... "Logos"... So, John is prepping to explain to a GREEK culture that the LOGOS (Translates to WORD)... is about to perform the SPIRITUAL equivalent of BECOMING .... Speaking in a Spiritual sense, not a Carnal sense.... Maritally Speaking, ONE FLESH with ALL of Creation that God Created.
.................................. This is to say..... The Creator, GOD ALMIGHTY is about to bypass the mechanism of Carnal Sexual Procreation that He created, yet He is using the Mechanism of BIRTH through Mary (For Actual Blood Line... and no doubt that is a fact, because He tended that Bloodline all throughout scripture... and even smited a dude for tampering with it)..... The Virgin Birth..... to Spiritually and Symbolically MARRY HIS CREATION, (Spiritually Consummating) to the very Physical Presence of Himself, that He Created Creation Through, to Creation which HE LOVES. (BRIDE GROOM)
10. God's Very Uncontainable Essence that we Know as THE FATHER, REMAINS in Heaven, While His Physical Presence (HIS SON) is now Growing as a teeny tiny Baby within Mary's Womb, which signifies the Very Womb of Israel, yet also... all the way through bloodline, back to EVE... The very Womb of All Humanity.
11. Because God is ONE SUBSTANCE of Being... sometimes people get fancy and say Spiritual Essences of God's Substance that make up HIS BODY, SOUL AND SPIRIT, which are indeed "Distinct", Just like your Body is distinct from Your Soul and your Soul is Distinct from your Spirit... etc... etc... etc... yet though you Have a Body, Soul and Spirit... It is YOU. Your Body is YOU. Your Soul is You. Your Spirit is You. Etc... etc....
.................... So, because God is of ONE SUBSTANCE, and HIS PHYSICAL PRESENCE is now Married to Humanity, through the womb and bloodline of MARY.... We can say... "For this reason a SON shall Leave HIS FATHER to Join With His Wife".... which Ephesians says (Ephesians 5: 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ (Bride Groom) and the church (Bride).

Are you with me?

 

[Dmytro]

The total eternal Power over the universe and everything in it can be held by no other but God .
That's a yes or a no by the way ?

Yes, no other than God or the one who is equal to him. I believe what Jesus taught which was also approved by the Father and hence is true. You seem to believe Jesus is God himself while I’m sure he isn’t God the Father but is equal to him.

There is no scriptural basis to claim that any other but God Himself has ALL POWER forever over heaven and earth .
The author of these Words is not God the Father who came to us as the Man of Sorrows who came to one time share all our experiences, suffer all our temptations, in the compassion of His Love.
He is the Risen God no longer divested of All the Power & Glory He gave up to come to us clothed in a plain coat of humility.
According to scripture there is the only one who has ALL POWER & ALL GLORY, God Himself.
If you say the three are not one, then by definition you are claiming that today and for eternity the Father has been stripped of His power and relegated to a powerless back seat

So Jesus for you is what you call ‘powerless back seat’ right? For me, no. Do not hurry up with conclusions. If something isn’t clear I’ll try to explain with quotes, if you are interested. If no, I don’t insist.

and a weaker position demonstrating your own spiritual discernment to be inches deep & miles wide.


Mat 28:18
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

 

[Mustard Seed]

It might be the case. It might also be that a messenger of Yahweh was an actual angel speaking and acting from Yahweh's name. What is more important in my opinion is that it might be that it was Jesus acting under name of Yahweh throughout the whole OT while Yahweh God the Father kept himself hidden and only shewed himself or acted that through Jesus. This is supported by Jesus’ words. Isaiah saw Jesus’ glory in the temple, in Matt. 23 Jesus says he was the one sending prophets to Israel and he said ‘your house is left to you empty’ while leaving the temple like it was he under Yahweh’s name and not Yahweh himself in the temple.

Now, ask the one question that you may ask yourself... about Trinity Doctrine and TriUne doctrine... that you are now wondering, most likely... after reading and understanding that.

Why didn't it get "explained" that way to begin with?

 

[Dmytro]

1: Correction to the spelling of "Theophanic" ... autocorrect hit that word and spelled it wrong, above.

Now, I'm not trying to cut in, on Hopeful's post. I just wanted to express what we have discussed per your logical discourse here.

I'm going to cut through all the Red Tape and Just Say it.

1: God pre-exists all things by INFINITY. He has NEVER NOT been.
2: God is Tri-Cot, in that He has a Body, Soul and Spirit
3: God's Body is known to be His Son, God's Soul is known to be HIS HOLY SPIRIT, God's Uncontainable Being... Essence, Infinite Spiritual Substance is known to be THE FATHER.
4: You can't see the "Invisible Substance or Infinite Spirit of God"... The Father
5: When you See God in scripture at ANY place, you are seeing His Body (Physical Manifestation / Presence / The Son)
6: God Created everything that exists in all dimensions, The Heavenly Realm and The Realm of our Universe containing Earth, as a physical Being... that is to say, His Essence Created and Manipulated Matter "Through the USE of HIS BODY (SON)".
7. Why is this so stinking important to refer to TriUne God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Because before God had created any "Fellowship" of any kind, He has ALWAYS had a Loving, Relational Relationship Between Father, Son and Holy Spirit. While "we" are much more simple, God is of infinite Magnitudes much more Complex.
8. Why is it a relief that we are made in His Image? Because it's pleasant to know that when we get to Heaven, and one unknown day when He comes back to earth... we won't be terrified to find that God is some PURPLE Octopus Creature with Hands for Eyes, Toes for ears, Swords for Hands and, well... etc... etc...
9. The Greeks called the Sum of all Truth, Substance, Wisdom, Existence etc... etc... "Logos"... So, John is prepping to explain to a GREEK culture that the LOGOS (Translates to WORD)... is about to perform the SPIRITUAL equivalent of BECOMING .... Speaking in a Spiritual sense, not a Carnal sense.... Maritally Speaking, ONE FLESH with ALL of Creation that God Created.
.................................. This is to say..... The Creator, GOD ALMIGHTY is about to bypass the mechanism of Carnal Sexual Procreation that He created, yet He is using the Mechanism of BIRTH through Mary (For Actual Blood Line... and no doubt that is a fact, because He tended that Bloodline all throughout scripture... and even smited a dude for tampering with it)..... The Virgin Birth..... to Spiritually and Symbolically MARRY HIS CREATION, (Spiritually Consummating) to the very Physical Presence of Himself, that He Created Creation Through, to Creation which HE LOVES. (BRIDE GROOM)
10. God's Very Uncontainable Essence that we Know as THE FATHER, REMAINS in Heaven, While His Physical Presence (HIS SON) is now Growing as a teeny tiny Baby within Mary's Womb, which signifies the Very Womb of Israel, yet also... all the way through bloodline, back to EVE... The very Womb of All Humanity.
11. Because God is ONE SUBSTANCE of Being... sometimes people get fancy and say Spiritual Essences of God's Substance that make up HIS BODY, SOUL AND SPIRIT, which are indeed "Distinct", Just like your Body is distinct from Your Soul and your Soul is Distinct from your Spirit... etc... etc... etc... yet though you Have a Body, Soul and Spirit... It is YOU. Your Body is YOU. Your Soul is You. Your Spirit is You. Etc... etc....
.................... So, because God is of ONE SUBSTANCE, and HIS PHYSICAL PRESENCE is now Married to Humanity, through the womb and bloodline of MARY.... We can say... "For this reason a SON shall Leave HIS FATHER to Join With His Wife".... which Ephesians says (Ephesians 5: 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ (Bride Groom) and the church (Bride).

Are you with me?

Yeah I’m following.

Now, ask the one question that you may ask yourself... about Trinity Doctrine and TriUne doctrine... that you are now wondering, most likely... after reading and understanding that.

Why didn't it get "explained" that way to begin with?

Yes, so why?

 

[Mustard Seed]

Yeah I’m following.

Yes, so why?

Because SATAN hates the Romantic, Loving Nature of his Creator... as he (Satan) prefers POWER, PRIDE, AUTHORITY, CONTROL, WHAT he perceives to be perfect leadership... and no doubt... he got through to one of the early church bishops/fathers to remove the Romance, Honesty and Love of the matter of the TriUne nature of God... to a reductionist mathematical equation that just ain't got NO soul!

That's my opinion on the matter.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Yes, no other than God or the one who is equal to him.

To be " Equal to God " can only be God.
2+2 will always = 4
To say there is one equal to God but not God is to say 2+2 = 3
There is no "equal" to God.
He is singularly unique .
There is only One God that has All Power over Heaven & earth for ever & ever .

Mat 28:18
"All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

 

[Randy]

I think Abraham for saw Jesus.
There was no actual Jesus until the Word took on flesh and was born of a woman.

You believe Jesus was created in the womb of Mary? Body and Soul?

 

[LeviR]

To be " Equal to God " can only be God.
2+2 will always = 4
To say there is one equal to God but not God is to say 2+2 = 3
There is no "equal" to God.
He is singularly unique .
There is only One God that has All Power over Heaven & earth for ever & ever .

Mat 28:18
"All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

Paul knew there was only one God, the Father. He also knew Jesus was a man.
Therefore, the equality is in the words They speak and the works They do. God gives him the Spirit without limit . The full measure.
The same Spirt whereby God spoke everything into creation.

 

[Runningman]

To be " Equal to God " can only be God.
2+2 will always = 4
To say there is one equal to God but not God is to say 2+2 = 3
There is no "equal" to God.
He is singularly unique .
There is only One God that has All Power over Heaven & earth for ever & ever .

Mat 28:18
"All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

All power except the power of God was "given" to Jesus.

For example, the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth and the only one called such in the Bible.

Matthew 11
25At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth...

Yet God is called the Lord of heaven and earth, the creator, and not served by humans hands (Jesus has human hands) as described in Acts 17:24,25.

 

[Consecrated Life]

So Jesus for you is what you call ‘powerless back seat’ right? For me, no. Do not hurry up with conclusions. If something isn’t clear I’ll try to explain with quotes, if you are interested. If no, I don’t insist.

You are the one whose theology says The Risen Lord & current sole owner of ALL POWER over heaven and earth has left the Father Powerless .
God clothing himself in humility born of flesh in a dirty animals feeding trough divested Himself of some power that He might know our sufferings, temptations and sorrows.
But He was not without power.
As God He could still forgive sins , ( what greater power is there than that ? )
but yet in His pre-glorified pre-resurrected state He could not know the day & the hour of the end .

Mat 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

This is clear demonstration of God divesting Himself of some power for our sakes, yet retaining His greatest power the forgiveness of sins.

Lets cut to the chase right now , in your theology does Jesus Christ this day, 05/29/2024 , Know the "Day and Hour" ?

That's a YES or a NO by the way ?
Don't get all slippery on me now with another long drawn out slithering ambiguous answer, composed entirely of personal opinion rather than scripture, to a basic question that your theology constantly forces you into.

 

[Consecrated Life]

All power except the power of God was "given" to Jesus.

For example, the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth and the only one called such in the Bible.

Matthew 11
25At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth...

Yet God is called the Lord of heaven and earth, the creator, and not served by humans hands (Jesus has human hands) as described in Acts 17:24,25.

Lets cut to the chase right now , in your theology does Jesus Christ this day, 05/29/2024 , Know the "Day and Hour" ?
Mat 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

That's a YES or a NO by the way ?
Don't get all slippery on me now with another long drawn out slithering ambiguous answer, composed entirely of personal opinion rather than scripture, to a basic question that your theology constantly forces you into.

 

[LeviR]

All power except the power of God was "given" to Jesus.

For example, the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth and the only one called such in the Bible.

Matthew 11
25At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth...

Yet God is called the Lord of heaven and earth, the creator, and not served by humans hands (Jesus has human hands) as described in Acts 17:24,25.

“Here is My Servant, whom I uphold, My Chosen One, in whom My soul delights. I will put My Spirit on Him, and He will bring justice to the nations.”

Jesus is God’s servant.

 

[Runningman]

“Here is My Servant, whom I uphold, My Chosen One, in whom My soul delights. I will put My Spirit on Him, and He will bring justice to the nations.”

Jesus is God’s servant.

Yes Jesus is God's chosen servant meaning that there was a point that Jesus was not chosen.

Observe what happened beginning at John's water baptism:

Acts 10
37You yourselves know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee with the baptism that John proclaimed: 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how Jesus went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with Him.

 

[LeviR]

Yes Jesus is God's chosen servant meaning that there was a point that Jesus was not chosen.

Observe what happened beginning at John's water baptism:

Acts 10
37You yourselves know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee with the baptism that John proclaimed: 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how Jesus went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with Him.

I don’t think 100% God gets anointed with the Holy Spirit and power to go about doing good.

 

[Runningman]

Lets cut to the chase right now , in your theology does Jesus Christ this day, 05/29/2024 , Know the "Day and Hour" ?
Mat 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

That's a YES or a NO by the way ?
Don't get all slippery on me now with another long drawn out slithering ambiguous answer, composed entirely of personal opinion rather than scripture, to a basic question that your theology constantly forces you into.

The way you're framing your question is that this is my theology rather than me simply bearing witness of what Jesus said. The answer to your question came directly from Jesus in the very verse you quoted, Matthew 24:36.

Do you see where Jesus isn't omniscient nor aware of the day or hour he returns?

Bottom line, the answer is no.