There is an alternative to trinitarianism/ non-trinitarianism.

[donadams]

Jesus Christ

71. Jesus Christ is the True God and True Son of God.
72. Christ assumed a real body, not an apparent body.
73. Christ assumed not only a body but also a rational soul.
74. Christ was truly generated and born of a daughter of Adam, the Virgin Mary.
75. The Divine and the human natures are united hypostatically in Christ, that is, joined to each other in one Person.
76. Christ Incarnate is a single, that is, a sole Person. He is God and man at the same time.
77. The God-Logos is connected with the flesh by an inner, physical or substantial unification.
Christ is not the bearer of God, but is God really.
78. The human and the divine activities predicated of Christ in Holy Writ and in the Fathers may
not be divided between two persons or hypostases, the Man-Christ and the God-Logos, but must be attributed to the one Christ, the Logos become Flesh. It is the Divine Logos, who suffered in the flesh, was crucified, died, and rose again.
79. The Holy Virgin is the Mother of God since she truly bore the God-Logos become Flesh.
80. In the Hypostatic Union each of the two natures of Christ continues unimpaired,
untransformed and unmixed with the other.
81. Each of the two natures in Christ possesses its own natural will and its own natural mode of
operation.
82. The Hypostatic Union of Christ’s human nature with the Divine Logos took place at the
moment of conception.
83. The Hypostatic Union will never cease.
84. The Hypostatic Union was effected by the Three Divine Persons acting in common.
85. Only the Second Divine Person became Man.
86. Not only as God but also as man Jesus Christ is the natural Son of God.
87. The God-Man Jesus Christ is to be venerated with one single mode of Worship, the absolute
Worship of Latria which is due to God alone.
88. Christ’s Divine and Human characteristics and activities are to be predicated of the one
Word Incarnate.
89. Christ was free from all sin, from original sin as well as from all personal sin.
90. Christ’s human nature was passible (capable of sensation & suffering).
91. The Son of God became man in order to redeem men.
92. Fallen man cannot redeem himself.
93. The God-Man Jesus Christ is a High Priest.
94. Christ offered Himself on the Cross as a true and proper sacrifice.
95. Christ by His Sacrifice on the Cross has ransomed us and reconciled us with God.
96. Christ did not die for the predestined only.
97. Christ’s Atonement does not extend to the fallen angels.
98. Christ, through His Passion and Death, merited reward from God.
99. After His Death, Christ’s soul, which was separated from His Body, descended into the
underworld.
100. On the third day after His Death Christ rose gloriously from the dead.
101. Christ ascended Body and Soul into Heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father.

 

[Dmytro]

Agreed.


I disagree and it has been proven. So, again I ask, where is just one verse that clearly states that only the Father is Yahweh?


No, not in the context of the Trinity. We’ve been over this, HERE. If you want to argue against the Trinity, then you must understand the terms that Trinitarians use.


Not at all. This just shows you don't actually know what the doctrine of the Trinity states and seem intent on not learning it, preferring to argue against a straw man. I've even provided the foundations and a basic definition of the Trinity, yet you still aren't trying to understand.


Exactly. I fully agree. This is where your reasoning is poor, though. If the Son is equal to the Father, which I completely agree with, then it necessarily follows that the Son is truly the God who is Yahweh. Why? Because only Yahweh has the nature of God and he says many times that he is the only God. The only logical conclusion, since there is only one being that is God, according to Yahweh himself, is that there are three distinct, coequal, coeternal, divine "Persons" within the one Being that is God.


You just stated that "the Father is 'Yahweh'," and you also stated earlier in this post that "The Father = Yahweh." You have said that many times. You are making a claim and I asked you to provide " just one verse that clearly states only the Father is Yahweh". How does that not make sense?

It's obvious that 99% of 'God' in NT relates to the Father and it seems like you agree that the Father is Yahweh of OT. Your question is how can I prove that Jesus is not Yahweh. First of all the idea of 2 persons being the same being is strange and doesn't make any sense. Then he just don't act like Yahweh. Look closely at Jesus' role in NT and his relationships with the Father. Yahweh is God he doesn't serve to anybody but Jesus came to complete the Father's works. Yahweh send but Jesus was sent by the Father. Yahweh grant authority but Jesus received his authority to judge, forgive sins and give eternal life from the Father. Yahweh give commands but Jesus followed the Father's commands. And so on. The only one in NT who literally and without any caveats corresponds to Yahweh is the Father. Jesus on the other hand is Yahweh's perfect representative, shine and radiance of his glory. He's like Yahweh for us. The one who saw him saw the Father but he's not the Father. Nature is the same but the persons and hence beings are definitely different.

 

[Dmytro]

The reason why not everything is clear to you is because your not understanding bible context. Isolating verses works to a degree But the bigger picture would draw you toward a trinitarian position. It makes sense that all 3 exist although its more dominant in new testament. The old testament has all 3 within its pages but its separation of the 3, showing them as 3 persons.

Could you elaborate? I didn't quite get your message.

 

[Free]

But you yourself agreed that 99% of 'God' in NT reference the Father. This means that God in OT quotations is also the Father. God of OT got the name Yahweh. So the Father is Yahweh.

No. Just because most of the uses of “God” in the NT refer to the Father, it does not follow “that God in OT quotations is also the Father.”

Then please use some other term for example 'hypostasis' instead of 'person'.

There is no need to. As I have stated previously, Trinitarians have used the word “person” for over 1,500 years.

I'm not arguing against the trinity. I'm presenting to you three divine persons: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit the only ones who are worthy to be trusted, loved and worshiped.

But, you are arguing against the Trinity if you deny that they, together, are the one God.

Got no idea how you can trust, love and worship not a person.

Me either. I'm not sure what you think you're addressing here.

Trinity is a being that consists of three hypostases that are not themselves beings.

Right. Three beings in one being would be a contradiction.

Each hypostasis is trinity and is to some degree distinct from other hypostases. Something like that?

Not each hypostasis is Trinity, otherwise there would be nine persons. The ousia that is God is Trinitarian, showing itself in three distinct hypostases.

I understand the scriptures differently...
'God' is a status. Like president or senator. According to OT that status properly belongs only to a divine person named Yahweh. Yahweh is the only one revealed in OT that can be without blasphemy called 'God'. All other gods are either myths or demons. But there are hints in OT that Yahweh God is not the only one divine. There was someone else equal to him participating with him in his activities so that Yahweh used 'US' to address himself and that person. Then Yahweh God revealed to us Jesus. He with many signs confirmed to us that Jesus is equal to him, that Jesus was before his birth and even before creation, he handed over everything he had to Jesus, which wouldn't be possible if Jesus was nit divine and now Jesus is sitting in heavens besides Yahweh God.

Your position is contradictory and unbiblical. The first foundation is that there is only one God--that is absolutely central to the entire Bible. From that, we know that only God can have the nature of God, because he is the only one. Therefore, to say that "There was someone else equal to [God]," is to say that this someone else was also God.

There can never be another person that is equal to God but not God. First, that is polytheism. Second, in order for God to be God, he can be the only one. If there is another God, then that means both are deficient somehow, each filling in the gaps missing in the other. Neither one could then be said to be the God of the Bible. Third, if we have two gods, then there is nothing to stop us from going to 2 million gods.

Apostle John states Jesus the Word was in the beginning (Genesis 1):

1. with God (with definite article)
2. and he was God (without definite article)

I'm not an expert in Greek but there are some commentaries explaining that like a noun with a definite article denotes an object while a noun without it properties or attributes of an object. Sorry once more I'm not an expert and my English is poor. Trinitarian so called 'translators' have chosen to ignore presence or absence of definite article while with 'God' despite the fact that, unlike in my native Ukrainian, there is definite article in English. So according to John 1:1 Jesus the Word in the beginning (prior to the creation of everything in Genesis 1) was besides a divine person called Yahweh God and had exactly the same attributes or properties of Yahweh God. Because Jesus in NT appeared in 'Son' status so Yahweh of OT who sent him in NT appeared in 'the Father' status and now he has 2 statuses 'God' and 'The Father'.

Where, exactly, have "Trinitarian so called 'translators' . . . chosen to ignore presence or absence of definite article while with 'God'"? The Word was God in nature, which is to essentially say that he was God, because only God has the nature of God. That is where your reasoning is poor.

So now we know three divine (including the Holy Spirit):

• Yahweh God the Father
• Jesus his Son
• The Holy Spirit

Of course there are three divine persons. I have stated that many times, because only the doctrine of the Trinity can make sense of three divine persons but only one God.

Since the Father is God he is also Yahweh of OT.

To say that only the Father is Yahweh is fallaciously begging the question, as I've pointed many times.

Jesus was also called 'God' several times in my opinion because:

• he has the same nature as Yahweh God

Which can only mean he is also Yahweh. He cannot have "the same nature as Yahweh God" and not also be Yahweh, since only Yahweh has the nature of Yahweh.

This isn't a Bible teaching but your interpretation, understanding of what the Bible says...

No. This is precisely what the Bible teaches, which is why it has been believed by Christians since the beginning: "There is only one God. There are three distinct, divine Persons. The three Persons are coequal and coeternal."

No Christian, ever, has believed that there are three equal, divine persons, but only of them is God, because that is nowhere in the Bible.

that's too weak

Then address it and show exactly how it is weak:

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (ESV)

You claiming it is weak doesn't make it so.

Narrow path is ok for me, it leads to eternal life

Again, if your path is so narrow that you're the only one, that is a huge red flag that you're on the wrong path.

 

[Free]

It's obvious that 99% of 'God' in NT relates to the Father and it seems like you agree that the Father is Yahweh of OT.

Yes, the Father is Yahweh, along with both the Son and the Holy Spirit. All three are the one Yahweh.

Your question is how can I prove that Jesus is not Yahweh.

No, my question has very clearly been: where is just one verse that states only the Father is Yahweh? I have asked most of the anti-Trinitarians on these forums that question and I have not received a single verse.

First of all the idea of 2 persons being the same being is strange and doesn't make any sense.

But, just because you find it strange and it doesn't make any sense to you, doesn't mean it isn't true. It is infinitely complex and cannot be fully comprehended by the human mind, but that doesn't mean it's false.

Then he just don't act like Yahweh. Look closely at Jesus' role in NT and his relationships with the Father. Yahweh is God he doesn't serve to anybody but Jesus came to complete the Father's works. Yahweh send but Jesus was sent by the Father. Yahweh grant authority but Jesus received his authority to judge, forgive sins and give eternal life from the Father. Yahweh give commands but Jesus followed the Father's commands. And so on. The only one in NT who literally and without any caveats corresponds to Yahweh is the Father. Jesus on the other hand is Yahweh's perfect representative, shine and radiance of his glory. He's like Yahweh for us. The one who saw him saw the Father but he's not the Father.

As I have had to point out to every anti-Trinitarian, this passage is key:

Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (ESV)

Nature is the same but the persons and hence beings are definitely different.

Which contradicts Scripture. One being that is God and only one; and only God has the nature that makes him God. Nothing else can have the nature of God and not be God.

 

[Free]

That's correct and YHWH is the eternal, immortal, invisible God. The only God. That doesn't describe Jesus for Jesus is the "image" of the invisible God therefore he isn't God.

1 Timothy 1
17Now to the King eternal, immortal, and invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

Colossians 1
15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Your reasoning is very poor, based on taking everything out context and ignoring the meanings of the words. Once again, Phil 2:6-8 is key:

Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (ESV)

So is:

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)

And:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. (ESV)

Joh 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” (ESV)

Rom 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. (ESV)

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
Rom 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (ESV)

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
...
Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says...
...
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” (ESV)

 

[Runningman]

There is one earth that consists of every substance belonging to that earth. But that one earth is three. Not three earth’s but only one earth.The one earth consists of three who are that one earth and share the same substance but are distinct from each other.

Huh?

How bout this:

There is one earth that consists of every substance belonging to that earth.

There is one God that consists of every substance belonging to that God.

Yeah, that’s the One I prefer.

May as well call the entire universe that one earth, but in your view is God the universe? It's bigger than we can imagine. Even the best telescopes can't find where it ends or where it begins. It's possibly without end.

 

[JLB]

Jesus Christ is the True God and True Son of God.

 

[LeviR]

May as well call the entire universe that one earth, but in your view is God the universe? It's bigger than we can imagine. Even the best telescopes can't find where it ends or where it begins. It's possibly without end.

We can identify a human being by the substance of a human being.
If the substance of something differs we affirm the substance is not a human being.
We might call the substance of human, the nature of the human.
The nature is all the “stuff” that makes up a human being.
If the nature of one thing differs from another thing, they are not the same thing.
If Jesus’ nature was also of God’s nature(God and man),then the totality of his nature would differ from that of a human, and therefore is rejected as being a human.

 

[LeviR]

If we affirm every human being is a human person, then a human being which is not a human person is therefore not a human being.
If Jesus is one person, and that one person is God, then Jesus is not a human being, because every human being is a human person.

 

[Runningman]

We can identify a human being by the substance of a human being.
If the substance of something differs we affirm the substance is not a human being.
We might call the substance of human, the nature of the human.
The nature is all the “stuff” that makes up a human being.
If the nature of one thing differs from another thing, they are not the same thing.
If Jesus’ nature was also of God’s nature(God and man),then the totality of his nature would differ from that of a human, and therefore is rejected as being a human.

I take it that from your perspective Jesus is both God and man. In that case, who or what is Jesus to you?

I say he’s the Son of God and Messiah. It was said so upon his birth, water baptism, transfiguration, and resurrection. Meaning to say, Jesus the man is the Son of God in every way. I don’t separate Jesus’ humanity from his divine nature because I have caught on to the fact that Jesus is the example of who we can become like or grow up into.

Yet no matter how similar one may be to someone else, they will never become that person. I say God is different person from Jesus.

 

[LeviR]

I take it that from your perspective Jesus is both God and man. In that case, who or what is Jesus to you?

I say he’s the Son of God and Messiah. It was said so upon his birth, water baptism, transfiguration, and resurrection. Meaning to say, Jesus the man is the Son of God in every way. I don’t separate Jesus’ humanity from his divine nature because I have caught on to the fact that Jesus is the example of who we can become like or grow up into.

Yet no matter how similar one may be to someone else, they will never become that person. I say God is different person from Jesus.

It seems you’ve taken my perspective wrong.

 

[Runningman]

It seems you’ve taken my perspective wrong.

Aw sorry!

 

[LeviR]

If we affirm every human being is a human person, then a human being which is not a human person is therefore not a human being.
If Jesus is one person, and that one person is God, then Jesus is not a human being, because every human being is a human person.

Augustine was intelligent enough to realize the above truth, but the church could not come up with a better explanation. They could not deny the idea of “person”.
Some since Augustine have also realized the above truth and have tried to replace the word “person” with other ideas. Only to fail.
Trinitarianism is based on absurd ideas. But yet many there are who buy it.
And then they tell you that unless you buy our absurd ideas you can’t be a Christian.
Too funny.

 

[LeviR]

We can identify a human being by the substance of a human being.
If the substance of something differs we affirm the substance is not a human being.
We might call the substance of human, the nature of the human.
The nature is all the “stuff” that makes up a human being.
If the nature of one thing differs from another thing, they are not the same thing.
If Jesus’ nature was also of God’s nature(God and man),then the totality of his nature would differ from that of a human, and therefore is rejected as being a human.

If we are to trust the Bible as being reasonable and understandable as God says it is, then the only reasonable conclusion we can make is that the totality of Jesus’ nature was only human.

 

[Dmytro]

Yes, the Father is Yahweh, along with both the Son and the Holy Spirit. All three are the one Yahweh.


No, my question has very clearly been: where is just one verse that states only the Father is Yahweh? I have asked most of the anti-Trinitarians on these forums that question and I have not received a single verse.

I admit I don't know such a verse. If you prefer to base your understanding on what is not said I surrender.

But, just because you find it strange and it doesn't make any sense to you, doesn't mean it isn't true. It is infinitely complex and cannot be fully comprehended by the human mind, but that doesn't mean it's false.

Your argumentation is poor for me the same as mine for you.

As I have had to point out to every anti-Trinitarian, this passage is key:

Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (ESV)

How does this passage support your view? It doesn't say Jesus is Yahweh but that he was in the form of God and equal to God which I fully agree with. He truly used to act under the name of God in OT and is equal to him.

Which contradicts Scripture. One being that is God and only one; and only God has the nature that makes him God. Nothing else can have the nature of God and not be God.

The false statement won't become true through constant repetition. God used 'US' in OT to address someone equal to him and participating in his activities. Also Psalm 110:1

A declaration of Yahweh to my adonai
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies your footstool.”

where adonai is Jesus doesn't make sense if he is Yahweh. So because Jesus is divine there are definitely more then one divine person which is supported by both OT and NT. Let's not continue this argument.

 

[Dmytro]

I take it that from your perspective Jesus is both God and man. In that case, who or what is Jesus to you?

I believe he was divine person incarnated as a human.

I say he’s the Son of God and Messiah. It was said so upon his birth, water baptism, transfiguration, and resurrection. Meaning to say, Jesus the man is the Son of God in every way. I don’t separate Jesus’ humanity from his divine nature because I have caught on to the fact that Jesus is the example of who we can become like or grow up into.

Yes, he's definitely the example.

Yet no matter how similar one may be to someone else, they will never become that person. I say God is different person from Jesus.

Yes, they are 2 divine persons Yahweh God the Father and Jesus his one and only Son.

 

[Free]

If we are to trust the Bible as being reasonable and understandable as God says it is, then the only reasonable conclusion we can make is that the totality of Jesus’ nature was only human.

That would not be reasonable at all. That would be to take some of what is said and either ignore the rest or use those things to completely reinterpret the rest.

 

[Dmytro]

Augustine was intelligent enough to realize the above truth, but the church could not come up with a better explanation. They could not deny the idea of “person”.
Some since Augustine have also realized the above truth and have tried to replace the word “person” with other ideas. Only to fail.
Trinitarianism is based on absurd ideas. But yet many there are who buy it.
And then they tell you that unless you buy our absurd ideas you can’t be a Christian.
Too funny.

You can't be a Christian if you're not Jesus Christ's disciple, don't receive his teaching, don't follow him, don't have the Holy Spirit that's for sure. Not because you don't accept some human doctrines. Doesn't matter how someone evaluates himself or labels others Jesus is the one who will divide people to sheep and goats. Only his opinion matters.

 

[Dmytro]

If we are to trust the Bible as being reasonable and understandable as God says it is, then the only reasonable conclusion we can make is that the totality of Jesus’ nature was only human.

He was more than a human including being a human. This can be clearly seen in the gospels.