There is no Second Coming

[Benoni]

Nowhere in the Bible speaks of the "second coming" of Christ. Interesting, isn't it - how many of the major and most commonly accepted doctrines of professing Christianity cannot be found in the Bible? Even without the vast and conclusive testimony of scripture, even without the illuminating effect of the Holy Spirit of Truth, we would be inclined to suspect the "orthodox" teachings of the churches on the so-called "second coming of Christ" simply because all of the preachers and teachers and professors of are so united in dogmatically proclaiming it! Some will shudder at the very thought of questioning so sacred and orthodox a doctrine. Let them transfer their reverence from such empty shells of human supposition to the living, imperishable Word of God, and their feelings will revolt at that which they now revere. Let us clear them aside so that we may look upon the face of God's holy Word.

The term - "the second coming of Christ" - is not scriptural and cannot be found anywhere in the Bible; yet it has influenced the thinking and teaching of most Christians to accept and believe concepts that simply are not true. We have been so confused in our thinking that everything in the scriptures pertaining to the coming of the Lord, His appearing, His manifestation have to fit into His coming as a man two thousand years ago, or to His so-called "second coming" when every eye shall see Him. This is wrong.

Many texts speak of the coming of Christ, the coming of the Son of man, the coming of the Lord or similar phrases. The word "second" never occurs with a word that can be translated "coming".

The "second coming" is not a biblical expression and first occurred among Christians as late as the middle of the second century after Christ. I cannot emphasize too strongly that the word "second" is NEVER used in Holy Writ with the word "coming". That is the simple and plain and incontrovertible truth, and this fact is elementary and basic to a correct understanding of the coming of the Lord.

 

[westtexas]

Benoni, Scripture does not need to call it a second coming and as you say it has indeed influenced the thinking of all Christians. John 14:3 Jesus states"I WILL COME AGAIN" AGAIN is a second time my friend. I anxiously await that day!
Your brother in Christ, Westtexas

 

[Dave Slayer]

There is no trinity either because the Bible doesn't mention the word "trinity".

 

[follower of Christ]

There is no trinity either because the Bible doesn't mention the word "trinity".

Exactly.
Its a really pitiful argument for someone to say that some particular WORD doesnt appear in scripture.
I certainly would NOT want such a person sitting on a jury that was deciding my fate as they seem to be oblivious to the concept of 'evidence'.

Presenting Evidence
WmTipton

1.0
Heres a bit of a definition of the word 'evidence' from the web
[quote:1w1vjtea]
Evidence;
2. something that makes another thing evident; indication; sign
3. something that tends to prove; ground for belief

http://www.yourdictionary.com/evidence

When we read Gods word, preferably ALL of His word and not just parts that seem to back what we want to believe, there are many items throughout that word that 'tend to prove' or 'indicate' and give one 'grounds for belief' certain things.

*IF* this were a jury trial and none of the jurors were biased in one direction or another the evidence laid before them would 'tend to prove' or 'indicate' that these things are true.

Evidence is just that. It 'indicates' or gives 'signs' that something believed is the case.

In a jury trial I suppose that one could decide to ignore the clear evidence as it is presented as a whole.
It would be easy enough for a man to dismiss 99 pieces of evidence that tend to show someone as being innocent and cling to that one piece that MIGHT seem to indicate guilt, but is that actually letting the evidence speak for itself ?
No, that is someone who seems to WANT things to mean what he wants them to and doesnt really care what the evidence actually says.

2.0

Support:
6. To furnish corroborating evidence for


corroborate:
To strengthen or support with other evidence; make more certain

An example would be if I say that Gods word states that we arent to judge those outside the church but are to expel anyone professing to be a brother in Christ who is living in open sin.
The statement alone doesnt mean an single thing without SUPPORT from Gods word...it is presently UNsupported

Here is that SUPPORT;

I wrote to you in the letter not to associate intimately with fornicators; yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then you must go out of the world.

But now I have written to you not to associate intimately, if any man called a brother and is either a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one not to eat. For what is it to me to also judge those who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But God judges those who are outside. Therefore put out from you the evil one.
(1Co 5:9-13 MKJV)

That is how to properly support an assertion. Without support the assertion itself is meaningless.


.[/quote:1w1vjtea]

 

[follower of Christ]

Nowhere in the Bible speaks of the "second coming" of Christ. Interesting, isn't it - how many of the major and most commonly accepted doctrines of professing Christianity cannot be found in the Bible? Even without the vast and conclusive testimony of scripture, even without the illuminating effect of the Holy Spirit of Truth, we would be inclined to suspect the "orthodox" teachings of the churches on the so-called "second coming of Christ" simply because all of the preachers and teachers and professors of are so united in dogmatically proclaiming it! Some will shudder at the very thought of questioning so sacred and orthodox a doctrine. Let them transfer their reverence from such empty shells of human supposition to the living, imperishable Word of God, and their feelings will revolt at that which they now revere. Let us clear them aside so that we may look upon the face of God's holy Word.

The term - "the second coming of Christ" - is not scriptural and cannot be found anywhere in the Bible; yet it has influenced the thinking and teaching of most Christians to accept and believe concepts that simply are not true. We have been so confused in our thinking that everything in the scriptures pertaining to the coming of the Lord, His appearing, His manifestation have to fit into His coming as a man two thousand years ago, or to His so-called "second coming" when every eye shall see Him. This is wrong.

Many texts speak of the coming of Christ, the coming of the Son of man, the coming of the Lord or similar phrases. The word "second" never occurs with a word that can be translated "coming".

The "second coming" is not a biblical expression and first occurred among Christians as late as the middle of the second century after Christ. I cannot emphasize too strongly that the word "second" is NEVER used in Holy Writ with the word "coming". That is the simple and plain and incontrovertible truth, and this fact is elementary and basic to a correct understanding of the coming of the Lord.

The EVIDENCE shows very conclusively that Jesus IS returning....'second' doesnt need to be in the text any more than 'trinity' does.

Here is a bit of that evidence. The study itself is not yet finished and wont be for a while...

UNDER CONSTRUCTION

The 'Rapture' (The Day of the Lord)
wm tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
That the 'rapture' is actually the Day of the Lord spoken of in the New Testament and that it will be towards the end of the 7 year tribulation.


Supporting Evidence

Firstly we establish that the 'day of the Lord' is what comes as a 'thief in the night'.
[quote:bfi1sr71](1Thess 5:2) For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

(2Peter 3:10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;

We see here that it is AFTER the tribulation of those days that the Son of Man appears.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of Heaven shall fall, and the powers in the heavens shall be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He shall send His angels and shall gather His elect from the four winds, from the end of the earth to the end of heaven.
(Mar 13:24-27)

When the Son of Man returns we see that some will be taken while others are left behind.

But just as the days of Noah were, so also shall be the coming of the Son of Man. For just as they were in the days before the flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and they didn't know a thing until the flood came and took them all away, so also shall be the coming of the Son of Man.
Then two will be in the field: one will be taken, and one will be left. Two will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken, and one will be left.
Watch therefore, for you do not know in what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what hour the thief was coming, he would have kept watch, and he would not have allowed his house to be broken into. For this reason you also must be ready, for at an hour that you think not, the Son of Man comes.
(Matthew 24:37-44 EMTV)

We see that it shall be then as it was in the day of Noah and of Sodom. The righteous are pulled out of harms way then sudden judgment comes.

And as it was in the days of Noah, so it also shall be in the days of the Son of Man. They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and the flood came and destroyed them all.

So also as it was in the days of Lot: they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; but the day Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from the heaven and destroyed them all. Even so it shall be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
(Luk 17:26-30)

Here we see that the days of 'affliction' are shortened because of the elect, for their sake. They must be present and being afflicted for this to be accurate.

for then shall be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened.
(Mat 24:21-22)

For in those days shall be affliction, such as has not been from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be. And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, whom He has chosen, He has shortened the days.
(Mar 13:19-20)

[/quote:bfi1sr71]

 

[Paidion]

Hebrews 9:28 ... so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

 

[follower of Christ]

Hebrews 9:28 ... so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

I forgot about that one entirely.
And boom..the OP is refuted in one little verse....

 

[Benoni]

. And what is the promise? The promise, wonderful promise! is of HIS COMING. "I WILL COME in to HIM, and will sup with him and he with me." Ah, is this the so-called "second coming" of Christ? It is not the one men preach about or that Christians expect and wait for, but, beloved saints of God, it IS THE COMING OF CHRIST, nonetheless. He does not come once and in just one way. He comes and comes and comes in the progressive revelation of HIMSELF!

Clearly that there are more than two comings of Christ mentioned in the Bible, and that trying to apply all the scriptures on the Lord's coming to just two comings, has caused a lot of confusion and erroneous teaching and has caused the Lord's people to miss completely some of the most marvelous aspects of God's great and wonderful purposes.

On the day of Pentecost Christ came again as the Comforter. "And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever; even the Spirit of Truth: whom the world cannot receive, because it sees Him not, neither knows Him: but you know Him; for He DWELLS WITH YOU, and shall be IN YOU. I will not leave you comfortless (orphans): I WILL COME UNTO YOU. Yet A little while, and the world sees me no more; but YOU SEE ME: because I live, you shall live also. At that day you shall know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I IN YOU" (Jn. 14:16-20).
In Mk. 13:26 He comes with CLOUDS. In Mat. 24:27 He comes as LIGHTNING. In Rev. 16:15 He comes as a THIEF. In Mat. 25:6 He comes as the BRIDEGROOM. In Rev. 22:16 and 2:28 He comes as the MORNING STAR. In Mal. 4:2 He comes as the SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ARISING. In Phil. 3:20-21 He comes in RESURRECTION POWER. In II Thes. 1:7-8 He comes in FLAMING FIRE. In Mal. 3:1-3 He comes to His priesthood company as REFINER'S FIRE and FULLER'S SOAP. In I Thes. 4:16-17 He comes IN THE AIR. In Hos. 6:3 and James 5:7-8 He comes as the RAIN. In Rev. 19:11 & 14 He comes on a WHITE HORSE. In Mat. 25:31-34 He comes as KING. In I Pet. 5:4 He comes as the CHIEF SHEPHERD. In Mat. 16:27 He comes WITH HIS ANGELS. In Jude 14 He comes WITH HIS SAINTS. In Jn. 14:18 He comes TO HIS SAINTS. In II Thes. 1:10 He comes IN HIS SAINTS. In Jude 14 & 15 He comes in JUDGMENT. In Rev. 22:12 He comes WITH REWARDS. And time and space fail me to tell of how He comes with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trump of God; He comes to the Mount of Olives; He comes to His temple; He comes in glory; He comes as Lord; He comes in His Kingdom; He comes as seasons of refreshing, etc., etc., etc.

Like a choir of many voices and as the sound of many waters, the testimony of the Word of God resounds with abundant and stunning and inescapable evidence that the coming of Christ is not a single event, but includes many different manifestations. His coming to us is a many-sided experience. To multitudes He appears as Saviour. They find Him at the crossroads of their lives. He becomes their salvation but they never venture any deeper to know Him intimately. They have only a superficial knowledge of Him. To others He appears as Chief Shepherd and Bridegroom. These hear His voice and are moved by His love, and follow on to know Him in deeper measures of intimacy and union. To others He appears as a Thief. He comes into their world uninvited and unannounced, He overtakes them unexpectedly and breaks up their life style and smashes their religious games. And unto others He appears as Fire, consuming their hay, wood, and stubble, eliminating by the spirit of burning all that is of self and not of God. The coming of the Lord is as many-faceted as the most dazzling crystal of earth or the most beautiful diamond known to man. In the Old Testament, the rabbis were often confused by the seeming contradictions in the descriptions of the coming of the Messiah. In some of the passages the Messiah was described as coming as a Suffering Servant to be wounded for transgressions and bruised for iniquities. In other passages He was coming as a Conqueror to rule and to defeat the enemies of the people of God. The people asked their scholars for an answer to this seeming contradiction. The rabbis would often go so far as to say that two Messiahs were coming. They were wrong; the same Messiah was coming twice. But more than that! Yea, a thousand times more! The same Messiah comes five, ten, thirty, ten thousand times, in as many and varied ways and manners as there are dealings and operations of God to bewrought in the lives of men and in the destiny of nations upon this earth. My earnest prayer to God is that the spirit of wisdom and revelation may somehow make forever plain to all who read these halting lines that we have seen too limited a vision of the truth, but bringing all the facets together, there is the fuller view where it readily appears that there are many-splendored dimensions to HIS COMING

 

[Benoni]

Hebrews 9:28 ... so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Someone will surely raise the question: Can not the expression "second coming" be justified by the closing verse of the ninth chapter of Hebrews? The passage reads, "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear THE SECOND TIME without sin unto salvation" (Heb. 9:28). This verse can be rightly divided only when taken within the context of the verses preceding it. The writer says, "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place every year with blood of others; for then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world has He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" (Heb. 9:24-26).
Some have tried to find three "appearings" in these verses, but there are only two. And the words are taken by unthinking people as though "appear the second time," or "second appearing" were somehow the equivalent of, or a synonym for, the "second coming." But this is merely playing on the language of our English version. The two "appearings" in this passage not even refer to the so-called "first coming" of the Christ in Bethlehem's manger, or His "second coming" from heaven at the end of this age. As we shall see later, the Lord has had MANY APPEARINGS on this earth. And here TWO of those many appearings are contrasted, the one with the other, so that one is "first," and the other "second." Here we have His "first" appearing: IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD FOR US. "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands ... but into heaven itself, now to APPEAR IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD FOR US."

In the types of the Old Testament the atonement for sin was not accomplished with the killing of the animal, and the sprinkling of the blood on the altar, the people and the tabernacle; not until the High Priest presented himself in the Most Holy Place, in the presence of God with the blood of the sacrifice. This was a type of the sacrifice of Christ for our sins. It was not accomplished nor completed with the shedding of His blood and His death on the cross. Before there could be any efficacy to His sacrifice He had to PRESENT HIMSELF IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD by His own blood to make atonement for our sins. This is what this verse is speaking about; Christ entered the Holiest, not of the earthly tabernacle, but into heaven itself, presenting Himself, appearing before the presence of God, in the eternal realm of spirit, as the bearer of our redemption. This verse says that He APPEARED in the presence of God for us. This is the first of the two appearings here contrasted, but certainly NOT His first appearing unto men! As we follow on in this scripture we are told that the Christ needed not to offer Himself often as did the High Priest of the Old Covenant, once a year with the blood of others. Only once did He need to offer Himself, as we read, "But now ONCE in the end of the age has He APPEARED (in heaven - vs. 24) to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." Once He has appeared, the first time, IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD FOR US!

Verse twenty-eight speaks of another APPEARING, even a second appearing in connection with our salvation. It begins with these words, "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many (referring to verses 24 and 26 where it says He entered the Most Holy Place in heaven and appeared in the presence of God for us)". Now He appears again the second time: "And unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation." Most Christians believe this verse in referring to what is called the "second coming" of the Lord, a visible appearing at the end of this age. This is not alluding to such a coming at all. The word actually employed is wholly different. It is a general word, and it is the very word used with reference to His manifestation to His disciples after His resurrection. It occurs four times in I Cor. 15:5-8 where it is translated "was seen". The Lord appeared to many following His resurrection. The Lord Jesus appeared to the apostle Paul entirely apart from His two appearings set forth in Hebrews chapter nine. The Lord appeared unto Paul in the form of a bright light above the brightness of the noon-day sun. Jesus manifested Himself to Paul in the form of light to commission him to the work of the gospel. And the Lord said., "Rise, and stand upon your feet: for I have APPEARED unto you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of these things which you have seen, and of those things in the which I WILL APPEAR unto you" (Acts 26:16).
And further, the definite article must be omitted: "So Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, SHALL APPEAR A SECOND TIME, apart from sin, to them that wait for Him, unto salvation." That is how the Greek text reads. The statement is not prophetic, but doctrinal; and the doctrine in question is not the so-called "second coming," but the PRIESTHOOD! It is not the prediction of an event to be realized by those who shall be alive on earth at the time of the end, but the declaration of a truth and a fact to be realized by every elect member of the body of Christ, no matter in what dispensation his sojourn upon earth may fall.

Our Lord Jesus Christ appears a second time to those who LOOK FOR HIM, who diligently seek for Him and follow after Him; not any more as a sin offering appearing in heaven for us, but in the mighty manifestation of His power usward, UNTO SALVATION. And this salvation is the work of our great and wonderful High Priest. This same wonderful truth is set forth in Heb. 7:25 in these words, "Wherefore He is able also to SAVE THEM TO THE UTTERMOST that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever lives to make intercession for them." This phrase is given by Phillips as "He can save fully and completely." Young's Literal, "He is able to save to the very end." Amplified, "He is able to save to the uttermost - completely, perfectly, finally, and for all time and eternity."

The Greek points out that He is able to save COMPLETELY. He is able to save ALL THE WAY, even unto the valley of the shadow of death. He is able to save altogether, NOTHING LACKING - complete salvation with no flaw, complete as only a holy and omniscient and omnipotent God knows completeness and perfection. This salvation "to the uttermost" is a complete salvation of spirit, soul and body reserved for those who "come unto God by Him" - those who follow all the way, into the Holiest, within the veil, to know HIM in all His glorious and eternal reality. And it is not a salvation effected by Jesus flashing across the sky, but by our great High Priest ministering from His throne of intercession! "The uttermost" is the strongest and extremist word in all the world. There cannot be anything beyond the uttermost. The uttermost is situated on the very extremist rim, on the very outmost edge, and on the very highest pinnacle of all existing things. It is the limit, the boundary, the completeness, the perfection, the fullness, the summit, the apex and the ultimate of all realities. Oh, the wonder of it! Salvation to the UTTERMOST! What a limit! What a boundary! What a summit!

The "uttermost" salvation cannot be understood apart from our High Priest who has secured it and who now ministers it to us from that higher realm of incorruptibility. Jesus pointed to this day when, on the night of His judgment, before crucifixion, He announced to the startled High Priest, Caiaphas, this amazing proclamation, "You have said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall you see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven" (Mat. 26:64). To paraphrase, Jesus says, "Though now you see me in this low and abject state, nevertheless the day is coming when I shall appear otherwise. Though you watch me die upon a Roman cross as a sin-offering, you will shortly see me sitting upon the throne of my Father and coming in the clouds of heaven."
How prone we are to view these as two events, separated by a vast span of time. Our conception is of Jesus sitting upon the right hand of God for a couple thousand years, at the end of which time He leaves His throne to "come in the clouds of heaven." NOT SO! "HEREAFTER you will see..." So runs the King James version, translating a Greek phrase which signifies unequivocally "from now on" - or literally, HENCEFORTH. But it is safe to say that the average reader, reading from the Authorized version, generally understands it to mean something very different - not "HENCEFORTH shall you see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven," but "in the hereafter," flat some point in the indefinite future," you will see the Son of man "sitting" and then "coming." The correct thought is, "HENCEFORTH - FROM N-O-W O-N you will see the Son of man sitting... and coming." These two events, the sitting and the coming, are simultaneous. They are co-extensive. They transpire at the same time. And they both happen "from now on." He sits AND He comes. He sits upon the throne of heavenly power and He comes in the clouds of heaven! He sits as our great High Priest and He comes as our transforming Saviour. He doesn't sit and then come, He comes while He sits. It is not two separate, independent actions, but a two-fold, interdependent action.

Has He not come to you, precious brother, sister, in mighty saving power even as He sits upon the throne on High? Is it not true that He has power to save completely just BECAUSE He is seated upon the throne? Ah - it is not Jesus crashing down through the skies who is able to save to the uttermost - it is, rather, Christ our High Priest on the throne of the Majesty on High who is able to save us to the uttermost, seeing HE EVER LIVES TO MAKE INTERCESSION FOR US. Oh, we read so much into the Word of God that is not there! With our limited and faulty carnal reasoning we distort it all out of shape, making it say what it does not say, and not say what it does say. Why cannot men cease their ignorant pratings and learn once and for all that our Lord Jesus Christ is fully able to sit and to come at the same time! It is high time for all of God's elect saints to learn that Jesus is both High Priest and Saviour at the same instant. He sits and He comes. He has appeared once and for all before the Father in heaven as our sin-offering, and now He sits there continually as the High Priest of that mighty life. And unto all who LOOK FOR HIM He will APPEAR A SECOND TIME UNTO SALVATION. He has appeared in the presence of God FOR US, and now He will appear a second time UNTO US. The subject is not His "second coming," but His glorious saving PRIESTHOOD! It is time for all men to believe the Word of God and cease from following their own shameful delusions. JEby

 

[XTruth]

This whole forum is completely infected w/ leaven. The Second Coming is a literal event that happens in a single day appointed by God. Jesus will come back to earth WITH HIS SAINTS and angels in order to rule the earth for 1000 years and weed out the remaining rebels in order for God the Father to set up His throne hear and bring the holy city from heaven to earth, literally and physically in all the above. Look up EVERY verse below and you can't possibly maintain the doctrine you've been taught when using every verse for the full view.

His Coming = 7 yrs after Rapture when He comes to earth WITH the saints (Isa.63:1-6; Dan.2:44-45; 7:13-14, 18, 27; Joel 3; Zech.14:1-5, 9, 16-21; Mat.24:29-31; 25:31-46; 2 Thes.1:7-10; 2:8; Jude 14-15; Rev.1:7; 19:11-16; 20:1-3). Rapture = Before the 7 Yr Trib. When He comes back FOR the saints (1 Cor.15:23, 51-54; Jn.14:1-3; Lk.21:34-36; 2 Cor.5:1-8; Eph.5:27; Phil.3:11, 20-21; 1 Thes.2:19; 3:13; 4:13-17; 5:9, 23; 2 Thes.2:1, 7; Col.3:4; Jas.5:7-8; 1 Jn.2:28; 3:2; 1 Pt.5:4; Rev.4:1).

 

[follower of Christ]

This whole forum is completely infected w/ leaven.

Actually the majority of members of this forum are VERY well rounded individuals, doctrinally speaking...its the vocal minority that come up with all sorts of godless nonsense that make it seem like the infection is complete. It really isnt, you just need to talk to more people away from the unscriptural fanatics to see it

The Second Coming is a literal event that happens in a single day appointed by God. Jesus will come back to earth WITH HIS SAINTS and angels in order to rule the earth for 1000 years and weed out the remaining rebels in order for God the Father to set up His throne hear and bring the holy city from heaven to earth, literally and physically in all the above. Look up EVERY verse below and you can't possibly maintain the doctrine you've been taught when using every verse for the full view.

His Coming = 7 yrs after Rapture when He comes to earth WITH the saints (Isa.63:1-6; Dan.2:44-45; 7:13-14, 18, 27; Joel 3; Zech.14:1-5, 9, 16-21; Mat.24:29-31; 25:31-46; 2 Thes.1:7-10; 2:8; Jude 14-15; Rev.1:7; 19:11-16; 20:1-3). Rapture = Before the 7 Yr Trib. When He comes back FOR the saints (1 Cor.15:23, 51-54; Jn.14:1-3; Lk.21:34-36; 2 Cor.5:1-8; Eph.5:27; Phil.3:11, 20-21; 1 Thes.2:19; 3:13; 4:13-17; 5:9, 23; 2 Thes.2:1, 7; Col.3:4; Jas.5:7-8; 1 Jn.2:28; 3:2; 1 Pt.5:4; Rev.4:1).

Im a pre-wrather myself, not pretrib...but close enough

 

[Benoni]

Seems to me the leaven comes from the people who have to make up non scriptural words like second coming and rapture and call it truth at the same time rejecting the multiple different ways God’s Word not made up words declares his return.

In Mk. 13:26 He comes with CLOUDS. In Mat. 24:27 He comes as LIGHTNING. In Rev. 16:15 He comes as a THIEF. In Mat. 25:6 He comes as the BRIDEGROOM. In Rev. 22:16 and 2:28 He comes as the MORNING STAR. In Mal. 4:2 He comes as the SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ARISING. In Phil. 3:20-21 He comes in RESURRECTION POWER. In II Thes. 1:7-8 He comes in FLAMING FIRE. In Mal. 3:1-3 He comes to His priesthood company as REFINER'S FIRE and FULLER'S SOAP. In I Thes. 4:16-17 He comes IN THE AIR. In Hos. 6:3 and James 5:7-8 He comes as the RAIN. In Rev. 19:11 & 14 He comes on a WHITE HORSE. In Mat. 25:31-34 He comes as KING. In I Pet. 5:4 He comes as the CHIEF SHEPHERD. In Mat. 16:27 He comes WITH HIS ANGELS. In Jude 14 He comes WITH HIS SAINTS. In Jn. 14:18 He comes TO HIS SAINTS. In II Thes. 1:10 He comes IN HIS SAINTS. In Jude 14 & 15 He comes in JUDGMENT. In Rev. 22:12 He comes WITH REWARDS. And time and space fail me to tell of how He comes with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trump of God; He comes to the Mount of Olives; He comes to His temple; He comes in glory; He comes as Lord; He comes in His Kingdom; He comes as seasons of refreshing, etc., etc., etc.

 

[Benoni]

My whole point here is to show those who have eyes to see there is far more to God’s Word then what tradition has given us. Each one of these verses I listed above has a far deeper meaning then most can see. You all can be satified with words that are not even scriptural I myself will always dig deeper and will not limit my God to some religious understanding.

Comes with CloudS
Some people get bent all out of shape when we tell them that Jesus is not returning riding upon a rain cloud. Let me assure you - the prophecies of the Bible are to be believed! But let us be careful that we do not make them mean something which God did not intend. The mistake that many make is to say that all those prophecies are to be fulfilled in a very physical and natural sense, when the New Testament interpretations indicate that the prophecies do indeed have a literal fulfillment but with a spiritual interpretation. We need to understand that much of the language of the Bible is couched in symbolism, metaphors and allegories. The beauty of things is sometimes enhanced by the descriptive language that God uses, such as when He describes the church, the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:21-33), as a "great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God" (Rev. 21:1-2,9-10). God's use of earthly language to describe His holy Zion in these two chapters of Revelation 21 and 22 is absolutely fantastic and marvelous. I doubt that John could have ever thought up this picture by himself!
I am reminded of the little girl who picked up a book on the vegetable kingdom. She read in the book that cabbages have heads. She asked her father, "Do cabbages have heads like we have?" He told her, "No." Then she said, "Well, the man that wrote the book wrote a lie!" "No," her father replied, "the man didn't lie." "But if he did not write a lie," she persisted, "then cabbages must have heads like ours!" Patiently her fattier explained, "No, honey. He is talking about another form of life, and that life form has a head, but it is a different kind of head from ours. Therefore he wrote the truth, but you put the wrong interpretation on it. The man who wrote that knew what he was talking about, but you, not understanding the things he spoke of, suppose that a cabbage has a head like a man's. But that does not make it so. The man was and is right, but your interpretation of what he wrote is wrong." Now, that is how the carnal mind reads the Bible. It understands spiritual realities in terms of fleshly or worldly things. All who interpret the scriptures with the natural mind are just as mistaken in their conclusions as was the little girl who looked for a cabbage possessing a human head complete with eyes, ears, nose and mouth and adorned with hair! The natural mind looks for Jesus to come on a fleecy-white rain cloud, but the spiritual mind sees that lie comes in the shekinah clouds of glory radiating from the glorious living temple of His body.
Another proof that the "clouds" with which Christ comes are in reality the sons of God IN THEIR GLORY is couched in the terminology of the scriptures on this subject. Note that in most places the passages in question speak of Christ coming "WITH CLOUDS." There is only one other group or plurality of objects of which it is stated that Christ comes "with" them, and that is - the SAINTS! The Bible never says that Jesus returns "to" the clouds or "out of" the clouds. It is very careful to tell us that lie comes "with" clouds. And it also tells us that tie comes "with" His saints. "To the end He may establish your hearts ... at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ W-I-T-H ALL HIS SAINTS" (I Thes. 3:13). Jude says, "And Enoch also ... prophesied ... saying, Behold, the Lord cometh W-I-T-H TEN THOUSANDS OF SAINTS" (Jude 14). The Amplified is helpful, when it reads, "Behold,the Lord comes W-I-T-H MYRIADS OF HOLY ONES - ten thousands of His saints." But the Interlineary reading from the Diaglott translation gives the clearest of all renderings from the Greek text, so we note, "Lo, comes Lord I-N HOLY MYRIADS OF HIMSELF." "Myriads of HIMSELF." All of them partakers of His divine nature, conformed to His image, filled with His life. Myriads of Himself, of His own kind, born of His seed, a many brethren company of SONS - all His sons. And again we read the testimony: "And the Lord my God shall come, and ALL, THE SAINTS W-T-T-H_T-H-E-E" (Zech. 14:5). The beloved John sees this same scene in wonder-filled vision and speaking in prophetical language writes: "Behold, He cometh W-I-T-H CLOUDS; and every eye shall see Him" (Rev. 1:7).
Rom. 8:17 contains a marvelous truth. "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also GLORIFIED TOGETHER." To be GLORIFIED TOGETHER is the hope that springs perennial within the breast of all who have by the spirit beheld HIS GLORY. This wonderful experience of being GLORIFIED TOGETHER is a reference of our union with Christ as members of His body, and speaks of a time to come when this entire company of the sons of God, IN UNION WITH CHRIST THE HEAD, shall be GLORIFIED TOGETHER - IMMERSED INTO THE LIFE OF CHRIST, sharing with Him in the fullness of His glory. This entire company shall be joined to Christ to share with Him in the blessed glorification experience when we shall partake of HIS GLORY, bcing fully transformed into the body of His likeness. Verse eighteen of Romans eight refers to that glory as "The glory which shall be revealed IN US." Therefore, it is a glory which is yet to be revealed IN US, that is, in these bodies we shall experience that great glory of Christ when we shall be clothed upon with our heavenly house so that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
We are plainly taught that when Christ who is our life, shall appear, then shall we also appear WITH HIM in glory (Col. 3:4). He can do nothing without us. We are His body. Oh, marvelous thought! Christ has bound us to Himself with ties so strong (no man would sprak of his own hand as being near or far, his hand is part of himself; no man would undertake anything without a full participation on the part of every member of his body in that event), Christ has bound us, I repeat, so eternally and utterly to Himself that we MUST figure in His movements. Of course we shall appear with Him! It could not be otherwise - we are His body. Each elect member of His body has been so grafted into the trunk of the eternal Godhead, so incorporated in His life that He and His body are one. Oh, the unutterable glory of this union with Christ! To what an ineffable destiny it commits us. We no longer concern ourselves about whether or not we shall "go to heaven." The truth of the matter is, we would rather not go, if Christ were not there. Ah, He IS heaven! The faintest glimmer of light from His holy countenance beside which the sun is but a shadow, suffices the heart. Paul could not have done otherwise than sing there in prison when at midnight with Silas, he rejoiced. His back was bleeding with the stripes; it was midnight; he was in prison. But he sings as a participant of Christ; heaven's ineffable light bursts in about him, the glory of the Lord is upon him, and the Lord manifests Himself in this cloud!
We are to participate in Christ's coming. We are moving toward the most stupendous transactions in the history of the human race. Nothing can befall Him that does not befall us. We are yet to participate in a fuller measure in the fruits of redemption. We shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is. With Him we shall reign. The stream of life, which proceedeth from the throne, and from the Lamb and which breaks in upon us, so that even NOW "rivers of living water" flow from our innermost being, is going to just overflow all its banks in this day, so that death will be literally SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY. Oh, that God may give us a heart to make due preparation for the participation in the yet unfulfilled history of Christ. For as we have been made to partake of the death of the Federal Head of the new race, and in Him were resurrected and made to sit in the heavenlies, so, in that sublime event toward which the church moves, the coming of Christ with clouds, we too, shall participate. Thanks be to God for His unspeakable gift!

 

[Bubba]

Benoni,
Would you consider yourself a Preterist? In that all the prophecies of the Bible were complete at the first Advent of Christ and the subsequent distrucion of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.?
Peace, Bubba

 

[follower of Christ]

Seems to me the leaven comes from the people who have to make up non scriptural words like second coming and rapture and call it truth at the same time rejecting the multiple different ways God’s Word not made up words declares his return.
.

Or it could come from those who like to play semantics games with phrases like 'second coming'....and 'trinity'...rather than simply accepting that those are OUR phrases that are used to EXPRESS ideas and concepts presented in the scriptures...

 

[whirlwind]

My whole point here is to show those who have eyes to see there is far more to God’s Word then what tradition has given us. Each one of these verses I listed above has a far deeper meaning then most can see. You all can be satified with words that are not even scriptural I myself will always dig deeper and will not limit my God to some religious understanding.

Comes with CloudS
Some people get bent all out of shape when we tell them that Jesus is not returning riding upon a rain cloud. Let me assure you - the prophecies of the Bible are to be believed! But let us be careful that we do not make them mean something which God did not intend. The mistake that many make is to say that all those prophecies are to be fulfilled in a very physical and natural sense, when the New Testament interpretations indicate that the prophecies do indeed have a literal fulfillment but with a spiritual interpretation. We need to understand that much of the language of the Bible is couched in symbolism, metaphors and allegories. The beauty of things is sometimes enhanced by the descriptive language that God uses, such as when He describes the church, the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:21-33), as a "great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God" (Rev. 21:1-2,9-10). God's use of earthly language to describe His holy Zion in these two chapters of Revelation 21 and 22 is absolutely fantastic and marvelous. I doubt that John could have ever thought up this picture by himself!
I am reminded of the little girl who picked up a book on the vegetable kingdom. She read in the book that cabbages have heads. She asked her father, "Do cabbages have heads like we have?" He told her, "No." Then she said, "Well, the man that wrote the book wrote a lie!" "No," her father replied, "the man didn't lie." "But if he did not write a lie," she persisted, "then cabbages must have heads like ours!" Patiently her fattier explained, "No, honey. He is talking about another form of life, and that life form has a head, but it is a different kind of head from ours. Therefore he wrote the truth, but you put the wrong interpretation on it. The man who wrote that knew what he was talking about, but you, not understanding the things he spoke of, suppose that a cabbage has a head like a man's. But that does not make it so. The man was and is right, but your interpretation of what he wrote is wrong." Now, that is how the carnal mind reads the Bible. It understands spiritual realities in terms of fleshly or worldly things. All who interpret the scriptures with the natural mind are just as mistaken in their conclusions as was the little girl who looked for a cabbage possessing a human head complete with eyes, ears, nose and mouth and adorned with hair! The natural mind looks for Jesus to come on a fleecy-white rain cloud, but the spiritual mind sees that lie comes in the shekinah clouds of glory radiating from the glorious living temple of His body.
Another proof that the "clouds" with which Christ comes are in reality the sons of God IN THEIR GLORY is couched in the terminology of the scriptures on this subject. Note that in most places the passages in question speak of Christ coming "WITH CLOUDS." There is only one other group or plurality of objects of which it is stated that Christ comes "with" them, and that is - the SAINTS! The Bible never says that Jesus returns "to" the clouds or "out of" the clouds. It is very careful to tell us that lie comes "with" clouds. And it also tells us that tie comes "with" His saints. "To the end He may establish your hearts ... at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ W-I-T-H ALL HIS SAINTS" (I Thes. 3:13). Jude says, "And Enoch also ... prophesied ... saying, Behold, the Lord cometh W-I-T-H TEN THOUSANDS OF SAINTS" (Jude 14). The Amplified is helpful, when it reads, "Behold,the Lord comes W-I-T-H MYRIADS OF HOLY ONES - ten thousands of His saints." But the Interlineary reading from the Diaglott translation gives the clearest of all renderings from the Greek text, so we note, "Lo, comes Lord I-N HOLY MYRIADS OF HIMSELF." "Myriads of HIMSELF." All of them partakers of His divine nature, conformed to His image, filled with His life. Myriads of Himself, of His own kind, born of His seed, a many brethren company of SONS - all His sons. And again we read the testimony: "And the Lord my God shall come, and ALL, THE SAINTS W-T-T-H_T-H-E-E" (Zech. 14:5). The beloved John sees this same scene in wonder-filled vision and speaking in prophetical language writes: "Behold, He cometh W-I-T-H CLOUDS; and every eye shall see Him" (Rev. 1:7).
Rom. 8:17 contains a marvelous truth. "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also GLORIFIED TOGETHER." To be GLORIFIED TOGETHER is the hope that springs perennial within the breast of all who have by the spirit beheld HIS GLORY. This wonderful experience of being GLORIFIED TOGETHER is a reference of our union with Christ as members of His body, and speaks of a time to come when this entire company of the sons of God, IN UNION WITH CHRIST THE HEAD, shall be GLORIFIED TOGETHER - IMMERSED INTO THE LIFE OF CHRIST, sharing with Him in the fullness of His glory. This entire company shall be joined to Christ to share with Him in the blessed glorification experience when we shall partake of HIS GLORY, bcing fully transformed into the body of His likeness. Verse eighteen of Romans eight refers to that glory as "The glory which shall be revealed IN US." Therefore, it is a glory which is yet to be revealed IN US, that is, in these bodies we shall experience that great glory of Christ when we shall be clothed upon with our heavenly house so that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
We are plainly taught that when Christ who is our life, shall appear, then shall we also appear WITH HIM in glory (Col. 3:4). He can do nothing without us. We are His body. Oh, marvelous thought! Christ has bound us to Himself with ties so strong (no man would sprak of his own hand as being near or far, his hand is part of himself; no man would undertake anything without a full participation on the part of every member of his body in that event), Christ has bound us, I repeat, so eternally and utterly to Himself that we MUST figure in His movements. Of course we shall appear with Him! It could not be otherwise - we are His body. Each elect member of His body has been so grafted into the trunk of the eternal Godhead, so incorporated in His life that He and His body are one. Oh, the unutterable glory of this union with Christ! To what an ineffable destiny it commits us. We no longer concern ourselves about whether or not we shall "go to heaven." The truth of the matter is, we would rather not go, if Christ were not there. Ah, He IS heaven! The faintest glimmer of light from His holy countenance beside which the sun is but a shadow, suffices the heart. Paul could not have done otherwise than sing there in prison when at midnight with Silas, he rejoiced. His back was bleeding with the stripes; it was midnight; he was in prison. But he sings as a participant of Christ; heaven's ineffable light bursts in about him, the glory of the Lord is upon him, and the Lord manifests Himself in this cloud!
We are to participate in Christ's coming. We are moving toward the most stupendous transactions in the history of the human race. Nothing can befall Him that does not befall us. We are yet to participate in a fuller measure in the fruits of redemption. We shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is. With Him we shall reign. The stream of life, which proceedeth from the throne, and from the Lamb and which breaks in upon us, so that even NOW "rivers of living water" flow from our innermost being, is going to just overflow all its banks in this day, so that death will be literally SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY. Oh, that God may give us a heart to make due preparation for the participation in the yet unfulfilled history of Christ. For as we have been made to partake of the death of the Federal Head of the new race, and in Him were resurrected and made to sit in the heavenlies, so, in that sublime event toward which the church moves, the coming of Christ with clouds, we too, shall participate. Thanks be to God for His unspeakable gift!

Hello Benoni,

Thank you for these posts....I agree with much of what you are teaching, although you have thrown a lot out there so I can't say I agree with all until I go back over it. May I ask you to do me a great favor in the future by using more paragraphs in your writing? It all runs together and there are important things written I don't want to miss.

Where it is written....

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning (shining) cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

To me, that documents what you are teaching. He is in us and He arrives in us....wherever we are, all over the world...from east to west. The shining is us, as depicted by Moses and Elijah as they stood with Christ on the mount of transfiguration. We are the clouds of witnesses:

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

 

[Bubba]

Acts 1:9 states
"And these things having said -- they beholding -- he was taken up, and a cloud did receive him up from their sight;

10and as they were looking stedfastly to the heaven in his going on, then, lo, two men stood by them in white apparel,

11who also said, `Men, Galileans, why do ye stand gazing into the heaven? this Jesus who was received up from you into the heaven, shall so come in what manner ye saw him going on to the heaven."

Benoni,
How does one reconcile this passage in respect to Jesus' 2nd Coming in His physical body that He left with?
Grace, Bubba

 

[Benoni]

Preterist is just another religious term to box God in something religious men can get a hold of. Many of the things in God's Word have not occured yet. But what will occur in the future is His will being done on this earth, be it your earth, my earth or the WHOLE earth. My God looses nothing. Be it Satan or the Lake of Devine Purging or Hades. All of this things are for His glory and or what God has always intented for all creation. GOD cause the fall, Adam had no choice and neither do we; and God will restore, redeem the whole earth and all that is in it; that is His divine promise even thought religious man does not see it.

I love the word See in Luke 3:6: (Gk) with wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable

So many in the religous real look at the word see and assume it means (NT:991, which denotes simply voluntary observation; and from) or (NT:4648 a watching from a distance); they claim you will only see the salvation of God; but turn on your spiritually understand and stop hearing what tradition is saying

See: Strong’s NT:3700

Well here is Luke 3:6

Luke 3: 6 (Amp) And all mankind shall see (behold and [a]understand and at last acknowledge) the salvation of God (the deliverance from eternal death decreed by God).


BUT NO the word “see†is so relevant in our search for truth; religious men have hundreds of reasons to not see; you hear them all the time. Examples: that is not what my pastor teaches, this is so contrary to orthodoxy, my Bible says here is a hell so that means there is a hell. It is like Columbus who look out across the Atlantic and could see something beyond the ignorance of his time; God want us to see; singular; in other words

. The Jew’s are traditionalist; Christians should be mature spiritual sons with ears to hear and eyes to see beyond the carnal literal. See: with wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable

See: Strong’s NT:3700

optanomai (op-tan'-om-ahee); a (middle voice) prolonged form of the primary (middle voice) optomai (op'-tom-ahee); which is used for it in certain tenses; and both as alternate of NT:3708; to gaze (i.e. with wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable; and thus differing from NT:991, which denotes simply voluntary observation; and from NT:1492, which expresses merely mechanical, passive or casual vision; while NT:2300, and still more emphatically its intensive NT:2334, signifies an earnest but more continued inspection; and NT:4648 a watching from a distance):

Luke 3 (msg)
A Baptism of Life-Change
1-6 In the fifteenth year of the rule of Caesar Tiberiusâ€â€it was while Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea; Herod, ruler of Galilee; his brother Philip, ruler of Iturea and Trachonitis; Lysanias, ruler of Abilene; during the Chief-Priesthood of Annas and Caiaphasâ€â€John, Zachariah's son, out in the desert at the time, received a message from God. He went all through the country around the Jordan River preaching a baptism of life-change leading to forgiveness of sins, as described in the words of Isaiah the prophet:

Thunder in the desert!
"Prepare God's arrival!
Make the road smooth and straight!
Every ditch will be filled in,
Every bump smoothed out,
The detours straightened out,
All the ruts paved over.
Everyone will be there to see
The parade of God's salvation."


It is man who limit God, it s man who is in darkness be it religious, or carnal men who have not been called yet because it is God's timing is all that matters.

Benoni,
Would you consider yourself a Preterist? In that all the prophecies of the Bible were complete at the first Advent of Christ and the subsequent distrucion of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.?
Peace, Bubba

 

[Benoni]

Seems to me the leaven comes from the people who have to make up non scriptural words like second coming and rapture and call it truth at the same time rejecting the multiple different ways God’s Word not made up words declares his return.
.

Or it could come from those who like to play semantics games with phrases like 'second coming'....and 'trinity'...rather than simply accepting that those are OUR phrases that are used to EXPRESS ideas and concepts presented in the scriptures...

I do not want to get into the trinity, I have step on enough toes. You should do a little open study on the trinity an look at its origins, this doctrine has only been around for about 200 years. Yes they express ideas, be they right or wrong. Those ideas are based on tradition and man’s religious teaching, not God’s Word.

My big problem with the rapture is one issue, it is an escapism doctrine.

God wants overcomers not escapist. We have been having an awesome spiritual battle so far; BUT the vast majority of the people on this forum get offended the first time I step on one of their false gods. There are two types of people in the Book of Revelation those who overcome and those who do not. God want mature overcoming sons, not a bunch of people who want to escape on a cloud and play harps. You brother are an overcomer; you just need to turn on his light not the preconceived way you have been taught. People like you are the ones I love to debate with because your heart is where it matters.

 

[Benoni]

Amen I get excited and in a hurry; I will work on this.

Hello Benoni,

Thank you for these posts....I agree with much of what you are teaching, although you have thrown a lot out there so I can't say I agree with all until I go back over it. May I ask you to do me a great favor in the future by using more paragraphs in your writing? It all runs together and there are important things written I don't want to miss.

Where it is written....

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning (shining) cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

To me, that documents what you are teaching. He is in us and He arrives in us....wherever we are, all over the world...from east to west. The shining is us, as depicted by Moses and Elijah as they stood with Christ on the mount of transfiguration. We are the clouds of witnesses:

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,[/quote]