These Signs Will Follow Those Who Believe (Mark 16:17)

[Alfred Persson]

Good to hear.
My wife and I found ourselves in a “full gospel” church. We’re still learning the lingo lol! One of the gals who grew up in that movement shared her wisdom when she said, “You need discernment”.

So yes, I understand your skepticism. It is warranted in many cases.


I’m not familiar with that terminology. But thank you for providing me the passages to ponder.

I was baptized in a Foursquare church. Lots of children of God there, many who spoke in tongues etc.

Although I now disagree about the revelatory gifts, they are just as Christian as I am.

Its consistent actually. Christians disagree about many things. But we all agree Jesus Christ is LORD and that makes us one in the Body of Christ.

 

[Hopeful]

I agreed with you up until the gift of the Holy Spirit being manifested by tongues. I don't believe that. In fact, on the Day of Pentecost its implied the 3,000 saved that day received the Holy Spirit but did not speak in tongues. prophesy or do any signs. If they did, it would have been mentioned with their actions after receiving the Holy Spirit.

38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 "For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.
44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common,
45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.
46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart,
47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. (Acts 2:38-47 NKJ)

As you are going to use that example to disqualify speaking in tongues, musn't you also disqualify them from having received the gift of the Holy Ghost?
Neither is mentioned.

 

[OzSpen]

14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.
15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

17 "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

[As individual Pentecostal and Non-Pentecostal believers today DO NOT DO ALL the signs (cast out demons, speak with new tongues, take up serpents, drink deadly poison) must we conclude there are no believers today on planet earth?

Of course not.

There is a transition implied by the context, from believers preached to in the world, to the special group of "believing preachers" Christ is sending who likely numbered in the thousands. These signs indicated who among them were true believers. Therefore, the pronouns "they, them" in Mark 16:17-18 refer to this group who uniquely establish the Christian faith in all the earth.

The Eleven would know if they truly believe, they would do all the signs that confirmed their word was from God (Comp. Heb. 2:3-4).

After teaching the eleven, the writer confirms the prophecy was fulfilled in the first century Mark 16:19-20). In the NT book of Acts we see Paul claimed to do all these signs of an apostle specially sent by Christ (2 Cor. 12:12; Compare Acts 16:18; 20:9-12; 28:3-5, 8; 1 Cor. 14:18).]

19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.

20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. (Mk. 16:13-20 NKJ)

Alfred,

I don't understand the reason why you are raising Mark 16:9-20 when they are not in the earliest biblical texts.

See: Circular Reasoning: Mark 16:9-20

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Yes, you did but you are so deluded that you don't realize what you are saying but then that is the way satan does things.

andy,

That's an unkind way to speak to Alfred. It should not be allowed on a Christian forum.

Oz

 

[Alfred Persson]

As you are going to use that example to disqualify speaking in tongues, musn't you also disqualify them from having received the gift of the Holy Ghost?
Neither is mentioned.

The Holy Spirit is mentioned by Peter, and the implication of their being saved is they received the Holy Spirit as promised:

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 "For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.
44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common,
45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.
46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart,
47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.
(Acts 2:37-47 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Alfred,

I don't understand the reason why you are raising Mark 16:9-20 when they are not in the earliest biblical texts.

See: Circular Reasoning: Mark 16:9-20

Oz

I reject unsound theories about text transmission.

The least meaning of God's Word cannot pass away until all is fulfilled:

"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. (Matt. 5:18 NKJ)

9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.
10 "For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And do not return there, But water the earth, And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower And bread to the eater,
11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it. (Isa. 55:9-11 NKJ)

 

[Cooper]

I agree 100% But I don't accept claims of supernatural gifts "sight unseen". I'm a skeptic, a cessationist. But I don't rule out God can't do what He wants, anytime He wants to.

And I do believe these gifts will return in the End Time Week, when the true church is being nourished by the two oil lamps of God at His altar:

NKJ Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.
2 "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.
3 "And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.
(Rev. 11:1-4 NKJ)

NKJ Zechariah 4:1 Now the angel who talked with me came back and wakened me, as a man who is wakened out of his sleep.
2 And he said to me, "What do you see?" So I said, "I am looking, and there is a lampstand of solid gold with a bowl on top of it, and on the stand seven lamps with seven pipes to the seven lamps.
3 "Two olive trees are by it, one at the right of the bowl and the other at its left."
4 So I answered and spoke to the angel who talked with me, saying, "What are these, my lord?"
5 Then the angel who talked with me answered and said to me, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord."
6 So he answered and said to me: "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel:`Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' Says the LORD of hosts.
(Zech. 4:1-6 NKJ)

16 "But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 `And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
(Acts 2:16-20 NKJ)

Pentecost prefigured this event, the signs of Blood and fire and vapor of smoke, sun turned into darkness, moon blood. all occur in the END TIME fulfillment.

So my Cessationism ends in the final 7 year end time week.

Rom 11:29 NKJV
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Any comments?
.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Rom 11:29 NKJV
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Any comments?
.

The context isn't about gifts of the Spirit, its about the favors and calling of Israel:

5486 χάρισμα charisma {khar'-is-mah}

Meaning: 1) a favour with which one receives without any merit of his own 2) the gift of divine grace 3) the gift of faith, knowledge, holiness, virtue 4) the economy of divine grace, by which the pardon of sin and eternal salvation is appointed to sinners in consideration of the merits of Christ laid hold of by faith 5) grace or gifts denoting extraordinary powers, distinguishing certain Christians and enabling them to serve the church of Christ, the reception of which is due to the power of divine grace operating on their souls by the Holy Spirit.-Strong's Concordance

This is how various commentaries interpret it:

c. χάρισμα (LN 57.103) (BAGD 1. p. 878): ‘gift’ [AB, BAGD, BECNT, ICC2, LN, NICNT, WBC; CEV, GW, KJV, NASB, NET, NIV, NLT, NRSV], ‘gracious gift’ [LN, NTC; REB], ‘act of grace’ [HNTC]. This noun is translated as a phrase: ‘the things he gives (them)’ [NCV], ‘(whom he) blesses’ [TEV]. This noun denotes that which is given freely and generously [LN].
d. κλῆσις (LN 33.313) (BAGD 1. p. 435): ‘calling’ [BAGD, BECNT, HNTC, LN, NTC; KJV, NASB, NRSV, REB], ‘call’ [AB, BAGD, ICC2, NICNT, WBC; NET, NIV, NLT]. This noun is translated as a phrase: ‘the people he calls’ [NCV], ‘(the people he has) chosen’ [CEV], ‘(when he) calls someone’ [GW], ‘(whom he) chooses’ [TEV]. This noun denotes the state of having been called to a particular task and/or relation [LN].

QUESTION—What relationship is indicated by γάρ ‘for’?

It indicates the grounds for what has just been said [BECNT, ICC1, Mor, NICNT], which is that God does not change his mind after he has issued a call or given a gift [Mor]. It indicates grounds for what was said in the last part of 11:28, which is that the Jews are still loved by God because his gifts and call are irrevocable [NICNT]. It indicates justification for what has just been said in the last part of 11:28, which is that God’s having chosen them is still valid [SSA].

QUESTION—What are the gifts and calling that are irrevocable?
1. The gifts are all the privileges of Israel summarized in 9:4–5 [BECNT, ICC1, ICC2, Mor, Mu, NICNT, SSA, St, WBC]. The calling is their election by God [Ho, NICNT], by which they became the beloved [NICNT], by which they became his special people and to fulfill his purposes in history [ICC2]. It is the calling to the kingdom [ICC1]. God calls both people and nations, and he commissions them to function in certain tasks [Mor]. The call is God’s summons of Abraham, which eventually came to be God’s election of Israel to be his chosen people [AB]. The calling is God’s effectual calling of Abraham and Israel to salvation [BECNT].


Abernathy, D. (2009). An Exegetical Summary of Romans 9–16 (p. 176). SIL International.

 

[Cooper]

The context isn't about gifts of the Spirit, its about the favors and calling of Israel:

5486 χάρισμα charisma {khar'-is-mah}

Meaning: 1) a favour with which one receives without any merit of his own 2) the gift of divine grace 3) the gift of faith, knowledge, holiness, virtue 4) the economy of divine grace, by which the pardon of sin and eternal salvation is appointed to sinners in consideration of the merits of Christ laid hold of by faith 5) grace or gifts denoting extraordinary powers, distinguishing certain Christians and enabling them to serve the church of Christ, the reception of which is due to the power of divine grace operating on their souls by the Holy Spirit.-Strong's Concordance

This is how various commentaries interpret it:

c. χάρισμα (LN 57.103) (BAGD 1. p. 878): ‘gift’ [AB, BAGD, BECNT, ICC2, LN, NICNT, WBC; CEV, GW, KJV, NASB, NET, NIV, NLT, NRSV], ‘gracious gift’ [LN, NTC; REB], ‘act of grace’ [HNTC]. This noun is translated as a phrase: ‘the things he gives (them)’ [NCV], ‘(whom he) blesses’ [TEV]. This noun denotes that which is given freely and generously [LN].
d. κλῆσις (LN 33.313) (BAGD 1. p. 435): ‘calling’ [BAGD, BECNT, HNTC, LN, NTC; KJV, NASB, NRSV, REB], ‘call’ [AB, BAGD, ICC2, NICNT, WBC; NET, NIV, NLT]. This noun is translated as a phrase: ‘the people he calls’ [NCV], ‘(the people he has) chosen’ [CEV], ‘(when he) calls someone’ [GW], ‘(whom he) chooses’ [TEV]. This noun denotes the state of having been called to a particular task and/or relation [LN].

QUESTION—What relationship is indicated by γάρ ‘for’?

It indicates the grounds for what has just been said [BECNT, ICC1, Mor, NICNT], which is that God does not change his mind after he has issued a call or given a gift [Mor]. It indicates grounds for what was said in the last part of 11:28, which is that the Jews are still loved by God because his gifts and call are irrevocable [NICNT]. It indicates justification for what has just been said in the last part of 11:28, which is that God’s having chosen them is still valid [SSA].

QUESTION—What are the gifts and calling that are irrevocable?
1. The gifts are all the privileges of Israel summarized in 9:4–5 [BECNT, ICC1, ICC2, Mor, Mu, NICNT, SSA, St, WBC]. The calling is their election by God [Ho, NICNT], by which they became the beloved [NICNT], by which they became his special people and to fulfill his purposes in history [ICC2]. It is the calling to the kingdom [ICC1]. God calls both people and nations, and he commissions them to function in certain tasks [Mor]. The call is God’s summons of Abraham, which eventually came to be God’s election of Israel to be his chosen people [AB]. The calling is God’s effectual calling of Abraham and Israel to salvation [BECNT].


Abernathy, D. (2009). An Exegetical Summary of Romans 9–16 (p. 176). SIL International.

That is not from E-Sword, but something of doubtful origin. I am always suspicious when people quote Hebrew or Greek. I see it as an attempt to blind the reader with science.

I believe God's word is true and when we read of God's gifts, see below, I take God at his word and when we read for example in James 1:17 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning." (Immutable) then I would be looking to myself, rather than to God who is faithful and true.

Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant:
1Co 12:8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,
1Co 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,
1Co 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
1Co 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

There is more... but suffice it to say, the gifts are for all time and I believe we should stand firm in the Lord.
.

 

[Alfred Persson]

That is not from E-Sword, but something of doubtful origin. I am always suspicious when people quote Hebrew or Greek. I see it as an attempt to blind the reader with science.

I believe God's word is true and when we read of God's gifts, see below, I take God at his word and when we read for example in James 1:17 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning." (Immutable) then I would be looking to myself, rather than to God who is faithful and true.

Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant:
1Co 12:8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,
1Co 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,
1Co 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
1Co 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

There is more... but suffice it to say, the gifts are for all time and I believe we should stand firm in the Lord.
.

Yes, you believe that. But you can't prove it from Romans, its not about the gifts of the Spirit.

Words have different meanings depending on context. For example, the English "Wind".
"Wind a clock"
"Wind up stranded"
"Wind in the road"
"Wind blows strong".

Which meaning applies depends entirely on context.

Same with charis. The lexicons and commentaries I cited are correct, charis here does not mean "spiritual gifts"

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. (Rom. 11:28-31 NKJ)

 

[JLB]

Sorry, but these signs are still manifested today through the Holy Spirit working through those of faith in the works of the Lord.

Amen!

 

[JLB]

FYI I was not talking about Fatima, dancing in the sun etc. I was talking about Jesus appearing to Muslims in dreams and visions which has been documented.

Amen!

 

[JLB]

Anyone who doesn't have the power of the Holy Spirit operating through them only has a "form" of godliness.


But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!
2 Timothy 3:1-5

The same Jesus in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John is the same Jesus today.

He dwells in us by His Spirit.

But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.
Acts 1:8





JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

Anyone who doesn't have the power of the Holy Spirit operating through them only has a "form" of godliness.


But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!
2 Timothy 3:1-5

The same Jesus in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John is the same Jesus today.

He dwells in us by His Spirit.

But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.
Acts 1:8





JLB

Amen brother and we testify of the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit that gives us the same gifts that the Apostles received.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Heb 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

 

[Cooper]

Yes, you believe that. But you can't prove it from Romans, its not about the gifts of the Spirit.

Words have different meanings depending on context. For example, the English "Wind".
"Wind a clock"
"Wind up stranded"
"Wind in the road"
"Wind blows strong".

Which meaning applies depends entirely on context.

Same with charis. The lexicons and commentaries I cited are correct, charis here does not mean "spiritual gifts"

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. (Rom. 11:28-31 NKJ)

I know about homonyms, the word day in Hebrew can mean eternity, and we are in the seventh day now and It is a very long 24 hours, but please do not try to use that as an excuse to deny God's immutable gifts.
.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Anyone who doesn't have the power of the Holy Spirit operating through them only has a "form" of godliness.


But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!
2 Timothy 3:1-5

The same Jesus in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John is the same Jesus today.

He dwells in us by His Spirit.

But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.
Acts 1:8





JLB

In context its about people like the magicians Jannes and Jambres, who do powerful signs and wonders.

These do powerful magic, but resist God's truth.

They deny the power to live holy lives..hence they are lovers of themselves...money...boasting etc:

2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good,
4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!
6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts,
7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith;
9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.
(2 Tim. 3:2-9 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

I know about homonyms, the word day in Hebrew can mean eternity, and we are in the seventh day now and It is a very long 24 hours, but please do not try to use that as an excuse to deny God's immutable gifts.
.

I don't understand your argument, The NT is in Greek, the word "charis" has different meanings so context must determine which is meant in a verse. Context proves its not about spiritual gifts. Its about the favor and calling of God regarding the Jews.

If people took your words "out of context" you would be upset. We should not take God's words out of context.

 

[andy pandy]

andy,

That's an unkind way to speak to Alfred. It should not be allowed on a Christian forum.

Oz

It is not unkind, to tell the truth. What is unkind it to keep telling people that their experience of the Holy Spirit is from Satan. Which is what Alfred seems to spend all his time doing.

 

[andy pandy]

Not a cynic. I obey Scripture:

Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jude 1:3 NKJ)

"Once for all delivered" in the 1st century, no other deliveries are scheduled, therefore the "revelatory gifts of the Holy Spirit" ceased when the apostles and prophets whom Jesus personally chose, went home to the LORD.

I am so glad it is the Holy Spirit that leads us into all truth, not Alfred Persson.

 

[andy pandy]

I don't understand your argument, The NT is in Greek, the word "charis" has different meanings so context must determine which is meant in a verse. Context proves its not about spiritual gifts. Its about the favor and calling of God regarding the Jews.

If people took your words "out of context" you would be upset. We should not take God's words out of context.

So why do you do it all the time?