This is a really interesting topic that you guys should start its own thread for.
Lots to be discussed about it.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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Lots to be discussed about it.
Jesus and you are one assuming you have the Spirit of Christ in you. Yet you are you and Jesus is Jesus.
I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—
Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us
Furthermore Jesus didn't state it was Himself doing the work but the "Father" "living in Him" doing "His" work
Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.
There's one big problem with that, among many.
None of us were divinely conceived. None of us have God Almighty, the Spirit (John 4:24), as our contributing Father's seed to our earthly mother's egg.
All of us have a physical human father and mother.
That changes the dynamic tremendously.
It is known as Christophany or Theophany, and being God in the appearance of man, he could speak both as a man or as God.
1) In Mt 1:23, Jesus is "YHWH with us."
2) In Mt 3:3; Mk1:7-8; Lk 3:16; Jn 1:29-34, Jesus is the YHWH of Isa 40:3.
3) In Ro 10:9, 13-16, Jesus is the YHWH of Joel 2:32.
4) In Heb 1:6, Jesus is the YHWH of Dt 32:43.
5) In Lk 1:67-68, 76, Jesus is the LORD (YHWH) of Zechariah.
6) In Lk 1:41-43, Jesus is the LORD (YHWH) of Elizabeth.
7) In Eph 4:8-9, Jesus is the LORD GOD (YHWH) of Ps 68:18.
8) In Jn 19:37, Jesus is the LORD (YHWH) of Zec 12:8-10.
9) In Lk 4:18-21, Jesus is the LORD (YHWH) of Isa 61:8
10) In Rev 1:12-18, Jesus is the LORD (YHWH), the First and Last of Isa 44:6, 48:12.
11) In Rev 22:13-16, Jesus is the LORD GOD, the Alpha and the Omega of Rev 21:6-7.
12) In Jn 5:22, 27, 9:39; Rev 20:11-13, Jesus is God on the Throne of Rev 21:5, 7.
13) In Jn 1:3, 10; Col 1:16-17; Heb 1:2, 10, Jesus is the Elohim Creator YHWH of Ge 1:1; Isa 44:24; Jer 10:16.
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Sorry theWind you're right, this here thread we're on is, the three person God identified in the Bible? BPPLEE and I are off topic on this thread.
New thread on the soul and hell is here: https://christianforums.net/threads/the-nature-of-the-soul-and-hell.96365/
It changes nothing really. A father is never his own son nor a son his own father. If the Father and Son are the same person, then God's revealing himself to us as Father and Son it completely meaningless and communicates nothing to us, which is to defeat the whole purpose of him communicating to us about himself.
Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
Joh 17:4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do.
Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
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Joh 17:21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
Joh 17:22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,
Joh 17:23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.
Joh 17:24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.
Joh 17:25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me.
Joh 17:26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.” (ESV)
Everything about these verses, all the language used, speaks of plurality and distinctness between the Father and the Son. The Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father so that "they may also be in us." Why? "So that the world may believe that you have sent me."
As I have repeatedly pointed out, the Father sent the Son. Jesus repeats this several times in this chapter alone and it is repeated throughout the NT. That speaks of distinctness prior to the birth of Jesus. And just in case that isn't clear enough, Jesus supports that idea by claiming to have existed (as the Son) prior to creation, in both verse 5 and 24. These point directly back to John 1:1.
We also see, as I have pointed out more than once before, that the Father loved the Son, even before creation. This fully supports what John says twice in 1 John 4, that "God is love." That is, it is intrinsic to the nature of God. He cannot not love. What then is love? At its fullest, it is both a healthy love of self and an outward expression towards others. We should fully expect then, that if God is love, that his love must have the fullest expression and necessarily includes love of others from before creation of all time and space, from eternity past.
However, if God is a monad (Islam, Arianism, Modalism, Oneness), then to say that “God is love” means 1) that God loved himself, and 2) that the fullest and proper expression of his love is dependent on creation. This contradicts the statement that “God is love,” as it leaves His love incomplete and deficient, meaning that he cannot be truly and fully God.
When we consider the Trinity, however, it all works. There are three persons each truly and fully God, equally possessing the full and undivided essence (one being that is God), having been in and intimate and loving relationship and communion for eternity past. Only now we can truly say that God is love. Diversity within the unity.
That's polytheism.
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It isn't Oneness, it isn't Modalism, it isn't Arianism, it isn't polytheism. It's Trinitarianism--three persons, one God. Verses such as these are precisely why we have the doctrine of the Trinity, why it best takes into account all that God reveals of himself in the Bible. Please feel free to address my arguments in that post.
Jesus is at the right hand of the "Father" in heaven now. Its beyond me how anyone can not see the Father and the Son as two people.
The Lord says to my lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”
They are two "people". Include the Holy Spirit and you have three "people". They are three aspects of the one Trinity. I have a body, a mind, and a spirit, but I am one person. Same principle.
It's not an easy concept to understand but keep asking in prayer to gain understanding.
Such conception has to do with the "body" not the Spirit and that doesn't take away from a Jesus in heaven at the right hand of the Father. Jesus still speaks of the Father in the book of revelation as another. His God, His Father, Sat down on His "Father's" throne. They are not the same person.
I don't see how you consider that it changes nothing. The entire dynamic is totally different.
We don't have God Almighty as our conceptual father. How does that not change anything?
A human father is never his own son, nor a human son his own father. That is correct. Human limitations do not apply to God.
I don't understand this assessment either.
How can you possibly consider it meaningless that God Almighty, the Highest Being in all of created existence, who answers to no one, and asks permission of nobody, humbled Himself immeasurably for sinful, fallible, weak mankind enough to incarnate His Royal Self into a lowly, sin-susceptible human body and put Himself through all the peasant existence, irreverent treatment, and unspeakable abuse and murder that Jesus endured?
Can you honestly claim that is meaningless?
AND .... tell me how that changes any part of the Biblical narrative in a negative way, or how it contradicts any major aspects of the Gospel story.
The rest of your post follows the same pattern it has throughout this thread in pretending that Isaiah chapters 40-48 do not exist. It does not take into account all that the Father claims in those chapters that completely contradicts the trinitarian interpretation of all the verses you posted.
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When Trinitarians say the Father is NOT the Son, the Son is NOT the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is NOT the Father, and each one is God, that is hard polytheism.
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This sentiment is also placing human limitations, and rules of modern psychology, on an unlimited Spirit Being.
It all works for those who accept and embrace this man-created doctrine that fits well into man's limitations and pseudo-sciences like psychology and sociology, etc.
Logic and language do apply since they are from God himself. We are the analogy to who God is, not the other way around. So, if human fathers are never their own sons nor sons their own fathers, that is a reflection of who God is, since he has revealed himself as, at a minimum, a Father and Son.
Why not? The entire Bible is God's revelation to us, largely consisting of who he is. Since he reveals himself, again, at a minimum, as a Father and a Son, then that is to communicate something about himself, about his nature, to us. However, if they are really one and the same person, then all rationality breaks down and it is nonsensical, communicating nothing to us about his nature, at best. At worst, it's deceptive.
Now you're moving the goalposts and begging the question. The Son is God Almighty, the uncreated, necessary being who fulfilled Pihl 2:5-8. Of course that isn't meaningless.
I don't understand what you're referring to.
At least show some honesty and integrity in your responses. This is misrepresenting my position (a violation of the ToS), as I have dealt with those more than once and you have continually ignored my responses which show that you are in error in your understanding. They support one of the foundations of the Trinity, namely, monotheism. They say absolutely nothing about the actual nature of God as he exists in and of himself.
No, it is not. Do not misrepresent what the doctrine of the Trinity states.
Right hand in Hebrew means 'most powerful.' That is who Jesus is.
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The doctrine states the Father is NOT the Son, the Son is NOT the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is NOT the Father, and each one is GOD.
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We have to remember that there is a very real spiritual dynamic at play in much of what is written in the Bible.
God is a spirit.
John 4:24
He is not bound by human limitations, rules, culture, psychology, sociology, etc.
The Father (a spirit) claims to be all the things we understand Jesus to be specifically in Isaiah 40-48. That cannot be overlooked or underappreciated when considering the True nature of God.
All glory belongs to the Father and He says He shares it with no other.
How does that make any sense that Jesus gets no glory for all that He suffered?
It only makes sense if they are one and the same.
And there are many specific cases like that throughout the Scriptures that only make sense if they are one person.
The Bible tells us that spiritual concepts are only understood via the Spirit giving us understanding and discernment. Looking at this concept of God being one person from a human perspective makes it all appear impossible. That's even more proof of the concept to me as God is a spirit. His nature and His Truth are very spiritual in their dynamics. It is amazing, and if the dynamics of God are not amazing to you, you probably don't have all the pieces of the puzzle fit together properly.
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