GodsGrace
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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Wearing the right shoes, and properly clothed spiritually?
Join Elected By Him for a devotional on Ephesians 6:14-15
https://christianforums.net/threads/devotional-selecting-the-proper-shoes.109094/
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What does the word un-begotten mean?
Coeternal, Coequal beings can not be a Son nor have a Father despite redefining "begotten" to make it so.
It doesn't. That's the point.
They still believe that He is the archangel Michael.
For that is their definition of "the Son of God".
There is no deception involved. God makes it very plain to us, in Isaiah 9:6-7, that the "son that was given" shall have the name of "The everlasting Father" and that the zeal of the LORD of hosts shall perform this.
As concerning the scripture that you have quoted, it substantiates my pov. For it should be clear that there is one Lord in holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6).
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Since the risen Christ is the same Person as the Father (is the Father), it should be clear that the pre-incarnate Word was with the Father (the risen Christ).
The conclusion that I would make from such a thing is that Jesus isn't God.
However, I believe in one God and that Jesus is God; and therefore I believe that Jesus, also, is the Father (come in human flesh).
Yes, you are one person with several roles and relationships and you are a child of the unchanging eternal God also, praise the Lord.
You will always be a wife, cousin, aunt etc to your family, but not to any other family, and we have both been adopted into the family of the unchanging God.
I have watched the video, and don't see anything different from what I was seeing years ago. He compares the family of God to a bunch of grapes. They can go rotten or be devoured and attacked. Please don't let others separate you from the love of the one undivided triune God.
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Jesus is the only Like to Like offspring of God. The only "begotten" Son. John 1:18
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. NOT the invisible God. Col 1
The eternal life found in Him is the Father. Gifted from the will of another Col 1:19
He is all that the Father is.
Hebrews 1
He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Is He God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.
The Father is NOT HIS Son. Jesus is NOT His Father
"If" the Father has a beginning it could NOT be by any other being.
You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.
People who are not of the faith can and do live in the flesh apart from Christ Jesus.
He is not talking about life in the flesh.
He never dies. The eternal life in the Son is the Father.
John 6:57
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
If the risen Christ is the Father then who spoke to Saul from Heaven?
You state the Father is deceiving us by masquerading as His Son Jesus.
He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
5“Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.
“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6“Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
Who is at Gods right hand?
Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven
The eternal life found in Jesus is the Father. "They" are one.
You are mistaken.
I guess He's confused. Perhaps you should instruct Him?
You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
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I find it interesting that you keep appealing to Isaiah 9:6 as though it is saying that Jesus is the Father, despite several things showing that that is impossible. Isaiah 9:6 is clearly a future prophecy about the Messiah, so we must keep that in mind first and foremost. It's not at all referring to either the Trinity or Oneness; it’s not at all about the nature of God. It's referring to the character and divinity of the Messiah.
First, it is worth noting the difference between the first two clauses: "to us a child is born;" "to us a son is given." That the "child is born" is a reference to physical birth, the incarnation. The "son is given," however, sounds a lot like the language Jesus uses of himself:
Joh 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
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Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 5:23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
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Joh 6:62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?
Joh 14:24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.
Joh 15:21 But all these things they will do to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me.
Joh 16:27 for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.
Joh 16:28 I came from the Father and have come into the world, and now I am leaving the world and going to the Father.”
Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
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Joh 17:8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.
Also Paul, in Gal 4:4, and John, in John 1:1-3, 14 and 1 John 1:1-2; 4:9-10, 14.
Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
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Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life—
1Jn 1:2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us—
1Jn 4:9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him.
1Jn 4:10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
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1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
So, we can see that Jesus's words are echoed by Paul and John, stating clearly that the Son has been with the Father for all "eternity past," prior to any creation.
Secondly, Isaiah clearly says this child is a son. Again, a father is never his own son nor a son his own father. It is completely irrational to believe otherwise and it would communicate absolutely nothing to us if the Father is his own Son. It's nonsensical. This, too, is shown by all the above passages, and many others. Any notion that Isaiah 9:6 is saying that the Messiah is God the Father is precluded by it mentioning that "a son is given."
Thirdly, not once in the NT is it implicitly or explicitly stated that Jesus is the Father. All the language he and each NT writer uses speaks of the Father as a different person from the Son. That is very consistent throughout, in numerous places.
Fourthly, although most translations say "Everlasting Father," "Father Forever" is a better translation and carries with it the idea that 'the king [being] shepherd, protector, and leader of the people was their "father,"' according to Dr. Michael Brown (Jewish Objections to Jesus, vol. 2, p. 46). The idea, however, is the same in both, namely, that the Messiah would become the "Everlasting Father" or "Father Forever," not that he already was. (See also Isa. 22:21 on a king becoming a father to his people.)
Fifthly, we do need to note that the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father, and so the Son reveals the Father to us (Matt 11:27; John 10:30, 38; 14:9-11; 17:6). In this sense, it could be argued that "Everlasting Father" also speaks of the Son's revealing of the Father to us.
All of this shows that “Father” in Isaiah 9:6 does not and cannot mean that the Son is the Father within the Godhead.
That is unequivocally denied throughout the NT. They are the same substance or essence, yes, but not the same "person." As I have stated many times, we would have to throw out all common use of language, logic, and rules of grammar to believe that the Father and Son are the same person. In which case, God has communicated pretty much nothing of himself to us.
They are eternally co-existant and distinct. This is what John 1:1 and several other passages clearly show us.
No, no. You made the claim so the onus is on you to provide the evidence. Until then, it simply remains your opinion.
No, they don't. Your initial argument here was:
"The councils missed a few important truths when they formulated their creeds.
1) the creeds deny that Jesus was "made of the seed of David according to the flesh" (Romans 1:3), stating that the Son is uncreated."
The creeds affirm that Jesus was both truly man and truly God. Note the "truly man" part, based on his incarnation, his birth as a human.
The first part of Isaiah 9:6a, "For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given," prophesied the First Advent of Jesus that has already taken place. It tells of Christ's humanity.
Verse 6b describes Christ’s deity and points forward to the Second Advent:
"The government will be upon His shoulder. He will reign as King of kings and Lord of lords."
The rest of the verse describes His personal glories:
His name will be called Wonderful, speaks of His Person and work.
Counsellor tells of His wisdom in government.
Mighty God — the omnipotent, supreme Ruler.
Everlasting Father — the eternal God, who confers eternal life on those who believe in Him.
He inhabits and possesses eternity (Isa_57:15);
He is loving, tender, compassionate, an all wise Instructor, Trainer, and Provider.
Finally, Jesus is Prince of Peace (Sar-Shãlôm) — the One who will at last bring peace to this troubled world.
(From the Believers Bible)
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Verse 6b describes Christ’s deity and points forward to the Second Advent:
"The government will be upon His shoulder. He will reign as King of kings and Lord of lords."
The rest of the verse describes His personal glories:
His name will be called Wonderful, speaks of His Person and work.
Counsellor tells of His wisdom in government.
Mighty God — the omnipotent, supreme Ruler.
Everlasting Father — the eternal God, who confers eternal life on those who believe in Him.
He inhabits and possesses eternity (Isa_57:15);
He is loving, tender, compassionate, an all wise Instructor, Trainer, and Provider.
Finally, Jesus is Prince of Peace (Sar-Shãlôm) — the One who will at last bring peace to this troubled world.
(From the Believers Bible)
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See 1 Corinthians 1:18,21.
Irrational, nonsensical = foolishness.
That is what you have to do. Change the holy scriptures, not once, but twice, in order to make them fit your theology.
I don't see any of what you have set forth as shewing that Isaiah 9:6-7 cannot mean that the Son is "the Father come in human flesh" within the Godhead.
However, I am certain that the way you perceive these words, defines the Trinity as the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost being separate, rather than distinct, individuals within the Trinity. i.e. the Father IS NOT the Son IS NOT the Holy Ghost. Thus, I don't think you can adequately argue against the fact that this theology is actually Tritheism in that you actually have three Gods.
The best you can do is insist that you believe in one God because that is the language of your doctrine.
"I have three Gods who are actually one God because I say they are one God."
You say they are one God because you are forced to do so; because monotheism is sound doctrine.
But in all reality, you believe in three Gods because of the IS NOT clause in your thinking...if the Father IS NOT the Son, then He is a separate Person from the Son and therefore not the same God.
Alright, then, consider it my opinion. I don't feel a need to prove it to you (whatever it was that I was saying). Suffice it to say that the evidence is on the internet. And if the internet has the evidence, it is not merely my opinion. But you can consider it to be such all that you want until you find the evidence in your own studies.
Yes, they do.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
That's not what my friends tell me.
I wonder if they teach something different here in Italy because they wouldn't win anybody over
if they said Jesus was an angel....
Saying He's the SON OF GOD, makes sense to everyone.
Even some Christians believe Jesus is just a Son...
It's a heresy though.
Give one example of this.
(really, I should require you to give many examples; however, I don't think that you can even provide one).
I had thought of it as being common knowledge before you challenged me to provide the evidence.
And since it is common knowledge, you should be able to find the evidence on the internet without too much trouble.
You do realize that you simply dismissed my argument without addressing it by completely misapplying Scripture, correct? There is the foolishness of the cross but that is quite different than applying irrational arguments to God. As C. S. Lewis said, nonsense is still nonsense even when it is spoken of about God (paraphrased, I think).
How about actually addressing my argument?
Not at all. The consistent thing I have noticed between every anti-trinitarian currently debating, is that single verses are being taken in isolation, divorced from their immediate context and the greater context of Scripture, often resulting in the verses saying something they don't. This is called proof-texting. What I have been doing, is trying to take everything that God reveals of himself, or at least many things, at the same time and trying to make sense of it. That is keeping things in their context.
We know that the Bible uses progressive revelation, that things hinted at in the OT are made more clear and are more fully developed in the NT. So, we simply cannot take a verse like Isaiah 9:6 and make it say what Oneness theology does, overriding all that the NT very clearly states, especially when even in the OT there is at least one other legitimate understanding of "father" that fits the context.
But it all does, whether you want to see it or not.
No, they are distinct, according to the doctrine of the Trinity and it absolutely not tritheism.
No, because it is clearly what the Bible tells us.
Misrepresenting someone's beliefs is against the ToS. I suggest you study what the doctrine of the Trinity actually states, and why it uses the specific language it does, before again suggesting that what I or Trinitarians believe is tritheism.
If it's on the Internet, it might just be a collective opinion based on no factual evidence.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
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