Three person God identified in the Bible?

[Randy]

You are getting closer.

The Spirit that dwells in Jesus is the Father; the Father is Jesus' Spirit.

As for John 14:6, it is referring to the Cross and what Jesus would do upon it. There is no forgiveness apart from the Cross of Christ.

Jesus is not the Father, exactly. There is a distinction.

He is "the Father come in human flesh".

So, we come to the Father through Jesus. That is, through His physical body dying on a Cross.

John 14:6 means exactly what Jesus stated. No one comes to the "Father" except by "Me" . The act of the cross has been made plain to all.

I have never heard of any stating the Father is "Jesus's" spirit. So rather than have 50 replies arguing the matter I do not and will not share this belief with you.

 

[justbyfaith]

John 14:6 means exactly what Jesus stated. No one comes to the "Father" except by "Me" . The act of the cross has been made plain to all.

I have never heard of any stating the Father is "Jesus's" spirit. So rather than have 50 replies arguing the matter I do not and will not share this belief with you.

I'm sorry to hear you say that. It means that you do not and will not believe the truth.

Disobedience is one thing...

Willful disobedience is something else!

 

[Cooper]

Well Jesus stated this while on earth.
And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and He is in heaven.

However I do believe the eternal life found in the Son is the Father.

Try to understand the two-fold nature of Jesus, who was GOD WITH US in the flesh, the same as God's spirit was in the rock that Moses struck.
.

 

[Randy]

Try to understand the two-fold nature of Jesus, who was GOD WITH US in the flesh, the same as he was in the rock that Moses struck.
.

"The Father living in Him doing "His" work. The Father is God.

The Fathers works Jesus performed testify to this truth.

Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’ ? 35If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

 

[Randy]

I'm sorry to hear you say that. It means that you do not and will not believe the truth.

Disobedience is one thing...

Willful disobedience is something else!

I pasted the test.
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

I had the Spirit of Christ in me before I had to consider the trinity and deep theological issues. The trinity is therefore not the way to the Father nor your way. Jesus is. I love and believe in Him and that as far back as my memory goes.
It is the Fathers will that Jesus lose none of those the Father gives Him. If what you state is true He would have told me as I do know Him. And He is NOT the Father.

 

[justbyfaith]

The Father is God.

And therefore, if Jesus is also God, He is the Father; for there is one God (James 2:19). While we make the distinction that He is not the Father per se; but that He is "the Father come in human flesh".

One Spirit who is God (Ephesians 4:4, John 4:24).

The 1st Person of the Trinity, a Spirit without flesh inhabiting eternity...

The 2nd Person, the same Spirit come in flesh.

The 3rd Person, the same Spirit released from the body of the 2nd Person, distinct from the 1st in that He has lived a human life (Luke 23:46) and therefore understands humanity in an experiential manner.

However, I fear that I may be violating Matthew 7:6 by relating to all of you these things. Perhaps I ought to shut up.

 

[Cooper]

"The Father living in Him doing "His" work. The Father is God.

The Fathers works Jesus performed testify to this truth.

Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’ ? 35If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

Do you understand and believe in the two-fold nature of God? Both man and God. God with us in the flesh made visible?
.

 

[justbyfaith]

And He is NOT the Father.

To be clear, He is "the Father come in human flesh."

Here is proof.

Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I AM..." (John 8:58)...

referring back to Exodus 3:14 where YHWH spoke to Moses as the voice in the burning bush.

Jesus is YHWH...

He is not a 2nd God other than YHWH.

And neither is He 1/3 of YHWH.

1 Timothy 3:16 ought to be clear enough...

1Ti 3:16, And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

God was manifest in the flesh. That is, the one God (James 2:19).

Not a 2nd God;

And not 1/3 of God;

God.

 

[Free]

Typical of the Internet.
.

What is typical?

You first stated: 'There is no verse in the Bible that says, "God is not Father, not Son, or not Holy Spirit."'

I replied: "But, of course there is no verse in the Bible that says, "God is not the Father, not Son, or not Holy Spirit." Why should there be? That is not at all what the doctrine of the Trinity states. The Bible clearly states that God is the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but also that the Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit, nor is the Son the Holy Spirit."

You replied to the last sentence with: 'The first part is correct, now show me where the Bible says, "GOD is not Father, not Son, or not Holy Spirit."'

I replied that: "I can't because that is not at all the argument I am making."


So, I had already addressed that argument but you completely ignored what I said, which is in the first three sentences. Then based on ignoring what I said, you request the very thing I said doesn't exist because it has absolutely nothing to do with the Trinity.

 

[Free]

To be clear, He is "the Father come in human flesh."

Here is proof.

Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I AM..." (John 8:58)...

referring back to Exodus 3:14 where YHWH spoke to Moses as the voice in the burning bush.

Jesus is YHWH...

He is not a 2nd God other than YHWH.

And neither is He 1/3 of YHWH.

1 Timothy 3:16 ought to be clear enough...

1Ti 3:16, And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

God was manifest in the flesh. That is, the one God (James 2:19).

Not a 2nd God;

And not 1/3 of God;

God.

This all fallaciously begs the question and so does not at all prove that Jesus is "the Father come in human flesh." The error is that you begin with the premise that God, YHWH, is only one person, the Father.

 

[Cooper]

What is typical?

You first stated: 'There is no verse in the Bible that says, "God is not Father, not Son, or not Holy Spirit."'

I replied: "But, of course there is no verse in the Bible that says, "God is not the Father, not Son, or not Holy Spirit." Why should there be? That is not at all what the doctrine of the Trinity states. The Bible clearly states that God is the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but also that the Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit, nor is the Son the Holy Spirit."

You replied to the last sentence with: 'The first part is correct, now show me where the Bible says, "GOD is not Father, not Son, or not Holy Spirit."'

I replied that: "I can't because that is not at all the argument I am making."


So, I had already addressed that argument but you completely ignored what I said, which is in the first three sentences. Then based on ignoring what I said, you request the very thing I said doesn't exist because it has absolutely nothing to do with the Trinity.

I found a way to put you on ignore. Just don't turn the laptop on.
.

 

[Free]

I found a way to put you on ignore. Just don't turn the laptop on.
.

So, instead of acknowledging that your statement (and request) are not based on anything anyone is saying, you would rather just ignore it all, just ignore anyone who disagrees with you? Why is that? Christians ought to be interested in truth and pursue it because truth matters.

 

[Free]

Your argument is to label my argument irrational.

But you didn't actually address my argument, you simply dismissed it with a misapplication of Scripture. My argument was that a father is never his own son nor a son his own father. It is completely irrational to believe otherwise and it would communicate absolutely nothing to us if the Father is his own Son. It's nonsensical.

Do you believe God is logic and that logic is an aspect of his speaking? Do you believe that logic is an aspect of language, that when we use language we use logic? Do you believe that God gave man language and logic, so that we can first and foremost communicate with God, but also so that we can communicate with each other?

I responded with 1 Corinthians 1:18,21 and the revelation that irrational = foolishness and that therefore it is this kind of preaching that might save those who will believe.

And, as I responded, it is a misapplication of Scripture. Paul is speaking of the foolishness of the cross--that salvation is to be found in the cursed death of the Saviour on a cross. It has absolutely nothing to do with irrational arguments about other things.

1) I am not anti-trinitarian. I very much believe in the Trinity.

If you believe that ontologically God is a single person, then you don't believe in the Trinity, by definition. This is the problem with Oneness--redefining the historical, orthodox Christian meaning of the Trinity in order to appear to be in line with historical, Orthodox Christianity. This is exceedingly dishonest and misleading. Mormons and JWs do the same in order to appear and be accepted as Christians.

Oneness theology is essentially Modalism trying to appear biblical by co-opting the language of the Trinity. It is, as I have said previously, essentially Coexistent Modalism.

2) every scripture stands on its own as a bastion of spiritual truth. Context never nullifies the plain meaning of any scripture verse or passage. This is a first rule of hermeneutics; based on the concept that the Bible doesn't contradict itself.

Yes, I know, but your first sentence contradicts the last. In order to gain an understanding of a verse so that "the Bible doesn't contradict itself," necessarily entails taking all the contexts into consideration.

I have not taken Isaiah 9:6 out of its immediate or topical context. But apparently, you think that the context of the verse nullifies the plain meaning of the verse. Thus you are breaking a first rule of hermeneutics and are butchering the scriptures.

No, I am taking the verse within the greater context of Scripture so that "the Bible doesn't contradict itself."

Of course. We do not "make" Isaiah 9:6-7 fit our theology. We read Isaiah 9:6-7 and base our theology on what it says. And what it plainly says is that "the son that was given" shall have the name of "The everlasting Father"...and that "the zeal of the LORD of hosts shall perform this."

Again, the meanings of the words are very important, as it doesn't "plainly" say what Oneness makes it say.

It is not that I do not see it because I don't want to see it. I don't see it because it isn't there.

I gave much evidence, not all of it, but here it is again:

Joh 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
…
Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Joh 5:23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
…
Joh 6:62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

Joh 12:44 And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me.
Joh 12:45 And whoever sees me sees him who sent me.
Joh 12:46 I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness.
Joh 12:47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
Joh 12:48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak.

Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me.”

Joh 14:24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

Joh 15:21 But all these things they will do to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me.

Joh 16:27 for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.
Joh 16:28 I came from the Father and have come into the world, and now I am leaving the world and going to the Father.”

Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
..
Joh 17:8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.

Also Paul, in Gal 4:4, and John, in John 1:1-3, 14 and 1 John 1:1-2; 4:9-10, 14.

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
...
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life—
1Jn 1:2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us—

1Jn 4:9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him.
1Jn 4:10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
...
1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

So, we can see that Jesus's words are echoed by Paul and John, stating clearly that the Son has been with the Father for all "eternity past," prior to any creation. Based on the language and logic used, it is logically impossible that the Father came in human flesh and that he is the Son.

(All ESV.)

 

[Free]

Yes, the true doctrine of the Trinity isn't Tritheism.

I agree.

But when you say that the Father IS NOT the Son IS NOT the Holy Ghost, that is Tritheism.

No, it absolutely is not. Again, study the historical definition and the precise language used. It absolutely is not tritheism.

I'm not certain why you can't see this.

It's because you simply don't seem to understand or even want to understand the historical doctrine. I find that strange for someone who argues so strongly against it.

Yes, the Bible clearly tells us that there is one God.

To say that the Father IS NOT the Son IS NOT the Holy Ghost is Tritheism; no matter how you try to slice it and say that you are preaching one God by saying such a thing.

Anyone who says that the historical doctrine of the Trinity is tritheism simply does not understand it. The doctrine fully affirms monotheism.

 

[justbyfaith]

This all fallaciously begs the question and so does not at all prove that Jesus is "the Father come in human flesh." The error is that you begin with the premise that God, YHWH, is only one person, the Father.

Such a thing should be absolutely clear from looking at such passages as 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, James 3:9 (kjv). These passages identify God as the Father.

But you didn't actually address my argument, you simply dismissed it with a misapplication of Scripture. My argument was that a father is never his own son nor a son his own father. It is completely irrational to believe otherwise and it would communicate absolutely nothing to us if the Father is his own Son. It's nonsensical.

It should be clear that nothing is impossible with God (Luke 1:37) and that therefore there is nothing nonsensical about the Father being His own Son, in the context of our understanding of God; whose ways are above our ways and His thoughts above ours (Isaiah 55:8-9).

And, as I responded, it is a misapplication of Scripture. Paul is speaking of the foolishness of the cross--that salvation is to be found in the cursed death of the Saviour on a cross. It has absolutely nothing to do with irrational arguments about other things.

1 Corinthians 1:18,21 refers to anything and everything that might be referred to as "the foolishness of preaching"...and includes things that are sound in doctrine that are considered to be nonsensical by those who lack understanding.

If you believe that ontologically God is a single person, then you don't believe in the Trinity, by definition.

No; what that means is that I don't believe in Tritheism.

The doctrine of the Trinity states that God is three-in-one.

Now I emphasize the Oneness of God but this does not mean that I deny His three-ness. I believe wholeheartedly that God is three distinct Persons within the Trinity.

Again, the meanings of the words are very important, as it doesn't "plainly" say what Oneness makes it say.

What it teaches is that "the son that was given" shall have the name of "The everlasting Father" and that "the zeal of the LORD of hosts shall perform this."

That seems to fit my theology which I would identify as not being distinctly Oneness; while I understand that it is close enough to Oneness that opponents of my theology can't keep from taking shots at it by identifying it as Oneness; as though such a straw man has any merit.

(to be continued)...

 

[justbyfaith]

I gave much evidence, not all of it, but here it is again:

Joh 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

Does this mean that Jesus as the Son of man existed in heaven in the flesh before descending into time?

No; for it should be clear that Jesus was the Word in His pre-incarnate form; and the Word, being God, was a Spirit (John 4:24). btw, there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4).

Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

This and other passages below this one are qualified by Hebrews 10:5.

It should be clear that God prepared for Himself a body and the Son is God as He exists in the hypostatic union...

The human Jesus is the One who was therefore sent as being distinct from the Father; while He is the same Spirit as the Father.

Joh 5:23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

Hebrews 10:5.

Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Hebrews 10:5.

Joh 6:62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

This is an interesting one for me.

Because my understanding is that God inhabits eternity (Isaiah 57:15); that He is Omnipresent outside of time.

Therefore in descending and ascending He would be replicating Himself; His pre-incarnate form would be Omnipresent outside of time and His after-incarnate form would also be Omnipresent outside of time. Thus you would have two who are Omnipresent and outside of time.

Now if it was the Son, and not the Father, who descended, there is a problem, Houston.

Because now you have two who are distinctly identified as the Son who are existing Omnipresent and outside of time.

Your Trinity is now a Quadrinity...Father, Son, Son, Holy Ghost.

Joh 12:44 And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me.
Joh 12:45 And whoever sees me sees him who sent me.

Hebrews 10:5.

Joh 12:44 And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me.
Joh 12:45 And whoever sees me sees him who sent me.
Joh 12:46 I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness.
Joh 12:47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
Joh 12:48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak.

Hebrews 10:5.

Joh 14:24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

Hebrews 10:5.

Joh 15:21 But all these things they will do to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me.

Hebrews 10:5.

Joh 16:27 for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.
Joh 16:28 I came from the Father and have come into the world, and now I am leaving the world and going to the Father.”

Jesus is here speaking in His humanity and also speaking of the fact that in His Deity He is the Father; since the Spirit in Him was the Father (John 4:23-24, John 14:7-11); and Jesus as a human being would ascend to the Father to sit on the right hand of the throne of God.

Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Since the risen Christ is the Father, the "you" here can refer to the risen Christ as the Word existed next to Him before the world existed; and "your own presence" can be referring to the pre-incarnate Word; as He is also the Father.

Joh 17:8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.

Hebrews 10:5.

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,

Hebrews 10:5.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
...
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Word as He became flesh is indeed the Son of God. He is the Son in that He is come in human flesh.

Prior to taking on the added nature of human flesh, Jesus, the pre-incarnate Word, was the Father (God). 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, James 3:9 (kjv)

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life—
1Jn 1:2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us—

The risen Christ is the Father; and therefore the pre-incarnate Word was with the Father, being the Father also. One Father, though.

1Jn 4:9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him.
1Jn 4:10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Hebrews 10:5.

1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

Hebrews 10:5.

So, we can see that Jesus's words are echoed by Paul and John, stating clearly that the Son has been with the Father for all "eternity past," prior to any creation. Based on the language and logic used, it is logically impossible that the Father came in human flesh and that he is the Son.

No, not impossible. I have given explanation above as to how it is possible.

I will say also that the Son exists prior to creation; being outside of time and therefore existent from everlasting to everlasting; since He rose to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10).

 

[justbyfaith]

Anyone who says that the historical doctrine of the Trinity is tritheism simply does not understand it. The doctrine fully affirms monotheism.

This concept that "The Father IS NOT the Son IS NOT the Holy Ghost" is a relatively new concept and the diagram that promotes the concept is relatively new. It is not the historical doctrine of the Trinity; in fact it is closer to the mormon doctrine about the Trinity than any sound doctrine on the subject.

 

[justbyfaith]

No, it absolutely is not. Again, study the historical definition and the precise language used. It absolutely is not tritheism.

I'm afraid that it is.

However, you are unable to see this fact, so I suppose that we will have to agree to disagree; and I will be praying for you.

Anyone who says that the historical doctrine of the Trinity is tritheism simply does not understand it. The doctrine fully affirms monotheism.

It denies monotheism while giving lip service to the idea of monotheism.

 

[justbyfaith]

Eph 4:4, There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

 

[justbyfaith]

1Co 12:4, Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5, And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6, And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.