Three person God identified in the Bible?

[GodsGrace]

See 1 Corinthians 1:18,21.

Irrational, nonsensical = foolishness.

That is what you have to do. Change the holy scriptures, not once, but twice, in order to make them fit your theology.

I'd like to chime in that Dr. Brown is not only Jewish but Christian by conversion, a very much respected biblical scholar, and if Dr. Brown says so, I would believe him.

Free has posted some excellent biblical ideas and if you don't agree with him, you must not be a trinitarian.
Apparently not.
I do want to also say that nothing is being changed because Christians believe in monotheism and, according to you, we don't have something straight in our heads.

I believe the problem is that YOU don't understand the Trinity, or do not accept it, because we have very clear what is in our head, and our understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity.

Jesus is not the Father, but He is totally God.
There is only One God.
If you don't pay attention to such a learned poster as Free, it means you're not interested in understanding or accepting this doctrine.

Did you write Christian under your avatar?
I do believe one has to accept the Trinity in order to be Christian.
(As all the creeds state).

I don't see any of what you have set forth as shewing that Isaiah 9:6-7 cannot mean that the Son is "the Father come in human flesh" within the Godhead.

However, I am certain that the way you perceive these words, defines the Trinity as the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost being separate, rather than distinct, individuals within the Trinity. i.e. the Father IS NOT the Son IS NOT the Holy Ghost. Thus, I don't think you can adequately argue against the fact that this theology is actually Tritheism in that you actually have three Gods.

The best you can do is insist that you believe in one God because that is the language of your doctrine.

"I have three Gods who are actually one God because I say they are one God."

You say they are one God because you are forced to do so; because monotheism is sound doctrine.

But in all reality, you believe in three Gods because of the IS NOT clause in your thinking...if the Father IS NOT the Son, then He is a separate Person from the Son and therefore not the same God.

Please learn the difference between A BEING .....
and A PERSON.

God Father is a being. A spirit. We cannot know or understand Him beyond what He has revealed.
His WORD/LOGOS is a PERSON.
His SPIRIT is a PERSON.

In philosophy a being is different than a person.
You could read up on this if you wanted to.

Trinity (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

 

[Free]

I'd like to chime in that Dr. Brown is not only Jewish but Christian by conversion, a very much respected biblical scholar, and if Dr. Brown says so, I would believe him.

And his PhD is in Near Eastern Languages and Literatures, so I would rather think he really does know the best translation of the Hebrew behind "Everlasting Father" and the meaning of "Father Forever" in Isa. 9:6, since those are within his area of expertise.

 

[GodsGrace]

And his PhD is in Near Eastern Languages and Literatures, so I would rather think he really does know the best translation of the Hebrew behind "Everlasting Father" and the meaning of "Father Forever" in Isa. 9:6, since those are within his area of expertise.

Yes, this is also true.
I respect him very much and listen to him or his debates whenever I come across one.
Even James White respects him...he doesn't respect too many persons.
I think they even debated, but they speak well of each other.
Unless we're totally prideful, we must admit that scholars know more than we do.
Agreeing on doctrine is a totally different issue, and each one of us must decide for ourselves what our doctrinal beliefs are....but we can't claim to know the languages of the bible better than the experts!

 

[Cooper]

Yes, this is also true.
I respect him very much and listen to him or his debates whenever I come across one.
Even James White respects him...he doesn't respect too many persons.
I think they even debated, but they speak well of each other.
Unless we're totally prideful, we must admit that scholars know more than we do.
Agreeing on doctrine is a totally different issue, and each one of us must decide for ourselves what our doctrinal beliefs are....but we can't claim to know the languages of the bible better than the experts!

There is no verse in the Bible that says, "God is not Father, not Son, or not Holy Spirit."
.

 

[Free]

There is no verse in the Bible that says, "God is not Father, not Son, or not Holy Spirit."
.

And there is no verse in the Bible that says, "the Father is the Son and the Holy Spirit."

But, of course there is no verse in the Bible that says, "God is not the Father, not Son, or not Holy Spirit." Why should there be? That is not at all what the doctrine of the Trinity states. The Bible clearly states that God is the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but also that the Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit, nor is the Son the Holy Spirit.

 

[Cooper]

The Bible clearly states that God is the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but also that the Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit, nor is the Son the Holy Spirit.

The first part is correct, now show me where the Bible says, "GOD is not Father, not Son, or not Holy Spirit."
'

 

[Free]

The first part is correct, now show me where the Bible says, "GOD is not Father, not Son, or not Holy Spirit."
'

I can't because that is not at all the argument I am making.

 

[justbyfaith]

You do realize that you simply dismissed my argument without addressing it by completely misapplying Scripture, correct? There is the foolishness of the cross but that is quite different than applying irrational arguments to God. As C. S. Lewis said, nonsense is still nonsense even when it is spoken of about God (paraphrased, I think).

How about actually addressing my argument?

Your argument is to label my argument irrational. I responded with 1 Corinthians 1:18,21 and the revelation that irrational = foolishness and that therefore it is this kind of preaching that might save those who will believe.

Not at all. The consistent thing I have noticed between every anti-trinitarian currently debating, is that single verses are being taken in isolation, divorced from their immediate context and the greater context of Scripture, often resulting in the verses saying something they don't. This is called proof-texting.

1) I am not anti-trinitarian. I very much believe in the Trinity.

2) every scripture stands on its own as a bastion of spiritual truth. Context never nullifies the plain meaning of any scripture verse or passage. This is a first rule of hermeneutics; based on the concept that the Bible doesn't contradict itself.

What I have been doing, is trying to take everything that God reveals of himself, or at least many things, at the same time and trying to make sense of it. That is keeping things in their context.

I have not taken Isaiah 9:6 out of its immediate or topical context. But apparently, you think that the context of the verse nullifies the plain meaning of the verse. Thus you are breaking a first rule of hermeneutics and are butchering the scriptures.

We know that the Bible uses progressive revelation, that things hinted at in the OT are made more clear and are more fully developed in the NT. So, we simply cannot take a verse like Isaiah 9:6 and make it say what Oneness theology does, overriding all that the NT very clearly states, especially when even in the OT there is at least one other legitimate understanding of "father" that fits the context.

Of course. We do not "make" Isaiah 9:6-7 fit our theology. We read Isaiah 9:6-7 and base our theology on what it says. And what it plainly says is that "the son that was given" shall have the name of "The everlasting Father"...and that "the zeal of the LORD of hosts shall perform this."

But it all does, whether you want to see it or not.

It is not that I do not see it because I don't want to see it. I don't see it because it isn't there.

No, they are distinct, according to the doctrine of the Trinity and it absolutely not tritheism.

Yes, the true doctrine of the Trinity isn't Tritheism.

But when you say that the Father IS NOT the Son IS NOT the Holy Ghost, that is Tritheism.

I'm not certain why you can't see this. I have an unction and might quote a passage that answers the question; but might be in violation of the ToS in doing so.

No, because it is clearly what the Bible tells us.

Yes, the Bible clearly tells us that there is one God.

Misrepresenting someone's beliefs is against the ToS. I suggest you study what the doctrine of the Trinity actually states, and why it uses the specific language it does, before again suggesting that what I or Trinitarians believe is tritheism.

To say that the Father IS NOT the Son IS NOT the Holy Ghost is Tritheism; no matter how you try to slice it and say that you are preaching one God by saying such a thing.

If it's on the Internet, it might just be a collective opinion based on no factual evidence.

Not worried about it. The issue in question is peripheral to me.

@Free has posted some excellent biblical ideas and if you don't agree with him, you must not be a trinitarian.
Apparently not.

I do believe in the Trinity.

I believe in one God who exists as three distinct Persons within the Godhead.

I do want to also say that nothing is being changed because Christians believe in monotheism and, according to you, we don't have something straight in our heads.

Everything is straight in your head if you believe in Christian monotheism.

I believe the problem is that YOU don't understand the Trinity, or do not accept it, because we have very clear what is in our head, and our understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity.

I have a very clear understanding of the Trinity. As a matter of fact, I would make this exhortation to you as concerning the subject.

Eph 3:3, How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Jesus is not the Father, but He is totally God.

There is only One God.

If Jesus is God and is not the Father then there is not one God...you would have Jesus (one God) and the Father (another God). Unless you want to deny that the Father is God.

Did you write Christian under your avatar?
I do believe one has to accept the Trinity in order to be Christian.

I accept the Trinity.

And there is no verse in the Bible that says, "the Father is the Son and the Holy Spirit."

There is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4); even the Father (John 4:23-24), the Son (John 4:24, Ephesians 3:17, Colossians 1:27, 1 John 5:12), and the Holy Ghost (John 7:39, 2 Timothy 1:14).

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); even the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18), the Son (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 12:3), and the Holy Ghost (2 Corinthians 3:17).

There is one God (Ephesians 4:6); even the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6, James 3:9 (kjv)), the Son (Hebrews 1:8-9; John 8:58, Exodus 3:14; John 8:59, John 10:31-33), and the Holy Ghost (Acts 5:3-4, Romans 8:26-27).

There are not nine members in the Trinity.

Here it is again without the scriptures.

There is one Spirit; even the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost.

There is one Lord; even the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost.

There is one God; even the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost.

So, first, look up the scriptures so that you can see that the statements are true.

Then, look at and think about the meaning of the statements and how they apply to the doctrine of the Trinity.

Because if you are not going to THINK about your doctrine, there is no point in furthering this discussion.

There are implications to every statement.

For example, if you are saying that the Father IS NOT the Son IS NOT the Holy Ghost, the implication is three Gods.

THINK.

 

[justbyfaith]

In philosophy a being is different than a person.

For example, there is the mythical creature called an Ettin: a two-headed giant.

This would be a being who is distinctly two persons in that each head represents a person within the being of the Ettin.

Jehovah's Witnesses also misrepresent the Trinity as being a three-headed God.

 

[Cooper]

I can't because that is not at all the argument I am making.

Typical of the Internet.
.

 

[Cooper]

For example, there is the mythical creature called an Ettin: a two-headed giant.

This would be a being who is distinctly two persons in that each head represents a person within the being of the Ettin.

Jehovah's Witnesses also misrepresent the Trinity as being a three-headed God.

Three heads or persons, is the way it is taught, so we can't blame the JW's. According to Trinitarians, we worship three persons, and each one is not the other.

That is wrong, I worship one omnipresent God.
.

 

[justbyfaith]

I worship one omnipresent God.

So do I, brother.

 

[Randy]

There is no verse in the Bible that says, "God is not Father, not Son, or not Holy Spirit."
.

Well Jesus stated this while on earth.
And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and He is in heaven.

However I do believe the eternal life found in the Son is the Father.

 

[Randy]

Three heads or persons, is the way it is taught, so we can't blame the JW's. According to Trinitarians, we worship three persons, and each one is not the other.

That is wrong, I worship one omnipresent God.
.

A distinction was made and One God and One Lord was noted as to Father and Son. Who I worship.
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

 

[Randy]

Yes, this is also true.
I respect him very much and listen to him or his debates whenever I come across one.
Even James White respects him...he doesn't respect too many persons.
I think they even debated, but they speak well of each other.
Unless we're totally prideful, we must admit that scholars know more than we do.
Agreeing on doctrine is a totally different issue, and each one of us must decide for ourselves what our doctrinal beliefs are....but we can't claim to know the languages of the bible better than the experts!

Its stated the Father is unbegotten and Jesus is begotten of the Father before all worlds but not made.

What are you stating about the "person" of God the Spirit? Unbegotten or begotten of the Father?

 

[justbyfaith]

Well Jesus stated this while on earth.
And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and He is in heaven.

However I do believe the eternal life found in the Son is the Father.

The Son is not the Father per se.

He is "the Father come in human flesh" (Isaiah 9:6; John 4:23-24, John 14:7-11).

 

[justbyfaith]

A distinction was made and One God and One Lord was noted as to Father and Son. Who I worship.
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Of course, it should be clear that the one Lord is also the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18); and that the one God is also Jesus Christ (Hebrews 1:8-9; John 8:58, Exodus 3:14; John 8:59, John 10:31-33).

So, the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6).

However, I'm afraid that many people have the tendency put a spin on what I just wrote so that they are unable to understand the truth of the matter.

 

[justbyfaith]

Its stated the Father is unbegotten and Jesus is begotten of the Father before all worlds but not made.

What are you stating about the "person" of God the Spirit? Unbegotten or begotten of the Father?

Yes, it does state that in the creeds.

It is, however, an unbiblical statement (see Romans 1:3 (kjv)).

A real belief in the Trinity hinges on the understanding that Jesus was begotten in the incarnation and that therefore prior to the incarnation He was the Father, who descended from eternity into time...

Eph 3:11, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

 

[Randy]

Of course, it should be clear that the one Lord is also the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18); and that the one God is also Jesus Christ (Hebrews 1:8-9; John 8:58, Exodus 3:14; John 8:59, John 10:31-33).

So, the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6).

However, I'm afraid that many people have the tendency put a spin on what I just wrote so that they are unable to understand the truth of the matter.

Jesus doesn't believe He is the Father and the Christ is forever.
No one comes..." "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6).

Jesus does believe the eternal life found in Him is the Father.
Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus doesn't believe He is the Father and the Christ is forever.
No one comes..." "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6).

Jesus does believe the eternal life found in Him is the Father.
Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

You are getting closer.

The Spirit that dwells in Jesus is the Father; the Father is Jesus' Spirit.

As for John 14:6, it is referring to the Cross and what Jesus would do upon it. There is no forgiveness apart from the Cross of Christ.

Jesus is not the Father, exactly. There is a distinction.

He is "the Father come in human flesh".

So, we come to the Father through Jesus. That is, through His physical body dying on a Cross.