I believe the Son who was, His spirit, was in the body prepared for Him. And as Jesus testified the Father was living in Him.
Its clear to me, "Father into your hands I commit my spirit"
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Its clear to me, "Father into your hands I commit my spirit"
So you state. Jesus was alive before Abraham was born. Moses asked God for a name. God stated, I Am that I Am.
I'm curious. Would you say this Person must be God, or not:
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col. 1:16-17 NKJ)
This unknown Person created all things, and "in Him all things consist."
What does that mean? If you recall the Matrix movie, computer generated virtual reality, Colossians says "in Him all things consist" (cohere, are held together") by the power and thought of "Him".
This Person literally "generates our Matrix", we are "His offspring."
Is this "Him" whose power and thought literally holds together the reality "we live and move and have our being in", God?
24 "God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.
25 "Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.
26 "And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,
27 "so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
28 "for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, `For we are also His offspring.'
29 "Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising.
30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, (Acts 17:23-30 NKJ)
I’m not a JW, oneness Pentecostal, or any denomination/sect. Just a God-fearing, bible-believing Christian.Hi Annagrace
I can't remember if I welcomed you to the forum.
I'd like to say that Christianity is based on the belief in the Trinity.
It is not a blasphemous belief because the early church believed Jesus is divine.
Trinitarians do not believe there are 3 Gods.
As the bible teaches, there is only one God.
It would be easier if we knew what we each adhere to kn doctrine. For instance, are you a JW? Are you a oneness Pentecostal?
Because you believe something, does not make others wrong.
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“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. All things were created by him, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things, and all things hold together in him (Colossians 1:15-17).”
The Lord has been present since creation and proof of this is seen all throughout the Old Testament beginning with Genesis.
I glorified you on earth and accomplished the work you gave me. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world existed (John 17:4-5).
In this high priestly prayer, Jesus Christ sums up his work before his crucifixion. He asked God to restore his glory to that which He had BEFORE the world's creation. This scripture confirms the pre-existence of Jesus Christ and the narrative concerning the world's creation in Genesis 1 and 2.
I am the Alpha and the Omega. I am the first and the last, the beginning and the end (Revelation 22:13). Jesus Christ is the Alpha that created the heavens and the earth. Also, he is the Omega who will end our current dispensation of time when he returns.
This scripture also confirms his pre-existence and involvement with the people and the events in Genesis.
Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad (John 8:56 ESV).
Likewise, Jesus testified that Abraham saw him and rejoiced! In doing so, he gave further evidence of his pre-existence. I have shared a few scriptures with you but there are many many more.
I am certainly not denying the pre-existence of Christ.
Before He was incarnated, in His own experience, He was the Father;
And when He rose from the dead, He rose to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10); that is, in order that He might again exist Omnipresent outside of time.
Therefore, as the risen Christ, He also exists before He was incarnated; since His existence is from everlasting to everlasting and this includes eternity past.
YHWH, in the burning bush passage, stated to Moses to tell the children of Israel, that "I AM hath sent me to you."
Jesus, in John 8:58, broke normal grammatical usage in order to claim that He Himself was the very voice in the burning bush (YHWH).
Thats not the context I see in Jesus's reply.
57“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!
Moses asked for a name.
Jesus stated this while on earth and the Christ is forever.
Matthew 23:9
New International Version
9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and He is in heaven.Revelation 11:15
Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign for ever and ever.”
And He and the Father are one as He taught. The eternal life found in Him is the Father and in Him the Father is glorified and is clearly read He received from the Father and its the Father who glorifies Him who is His Son from the beginning. The only begotten Son who was in the Fathers presence and came down as a witness, John 1:18
All that belongs to the Father also belongs to the Son as God appointed Him heir of all things.
The Father would not be jealous of Himself. No need to worry about those who hold to a trinity.
Its not life in the flesh He speaks of as that is found apart from Christ. He never dies as those in Him never die.
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8
Scriptures that reference the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20
So, it is your contention that John 8:58 is not a claim to Deity on the part of Christ?
Because it seems to me that there is a very clear claim of Deity here.
Correct, He's not stating His name is I Am. He is stating before Abraham was born, He existed. And that was in direct responce to “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
And, yet, the Jews "picked up stones to throw at him." Why would they do this if it wasn't a claim to be the I Am? It would seem that a more appropriate response would have been to laugh and tell Jesus he wasn't playing with a full deck. That wouldn't have been something deserving of stoning, but claiming to be the I Am was blasphemy.
Look at what Jesus had also just said to these same Jews:
Joh 8:23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.
Joh 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." (NASB)
It's also worth noting Jesus's arrest:
Joh 18:4 So Jesus, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth and *said to them, "Whom do you seek?"
Joh 18:5 They answered Him, "Jesus the Nazarene." He *said to them, "I am He." And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them.
Joh 18:6 So when He said to them, "I am He," they drew back and fell to the ground. (NASB)
As you probably know, "He" is italicized in the NASB, as it should be in all translations, because it doesn't appear in the Greek. I think it is no little thing that "they drew back and fell to the ground" when Jesus said "I am." As with the Jews previously picking up stones to stone him, the response here makes no sense if he merely was saying, "Here I am" or "That is me."
Those claims, along with 8:58, are in complete agreement with John 1:1-2 and several other passages, which speak of the pre-existent Son being with the Father before any creation (John 17:5, 24, for ex.), that is, before time and space existed. From that, there is only one logical conclusion--Jesus is fully and truly God, just as the Father is, but he isn't the Father. We agree that Jesus isn't the Father, as that goes against everything in the NT. However, Jesus was certainly claiming to be God, the same God as the Father.
I believe Jesus was before the world began but is not the Father. His statement was true in the context answered. Before Abraham was born I Am. Clearly much older then 50. Moses asked for a name. Jesus didn't give a name He gave a state of being alive before Abraham was born
But "I am" in John 8:58, given the context, is best explained by Jesus claiming to be the "I Am," not just merely existing before Abraham. If Jesus existed before all creation of time and space, then he necessarily is the I Am. If there was a time when the Son did not exist, then his coming into being would have been the start of the creation of time and space, and he would be a creature, making passages such as John 1:1-2, 1 Cor 8:6, and Col 1:16-17 false. However, if Jesus is the I Am, then there is no contradiction with those passages.
I Am before who He claimed to see Abraham Not I Am before the world began. This passage of scripture speaks for itself and is not defined by other passages of scripture.
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, every one who commits sin is a slave to sin. 35 The slave does not continue in the house for ever; the son continues for ever. 36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are descendants of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me, because my word finds no place in you. 38 I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”
Jesus and Abraham
39 They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do what Abraham did, 40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth which I heard from God; this is not what Abraham did. 41 You do what your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But, because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”48 The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I have not a demon; but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it and he will be the judge. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if any one keeps my word, he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon. Abraham died, as did the prophets; and you say, ‘If any one keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you claim to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is your God. 55 But you have not known him; I know him. If I said, I do not know him, I should be a liar like you; but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was glad.” 57 The Jews then said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”[d] 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.
We are actually supposed to let scripture interpret scripture. Reading each sentence in complete isolation from the totality of all other scripture is unwise.
So are you insinuating that Jesus is a liar since, as you said, “He claimed to be God, the same God as the Father”? If He claimed to be God, the same God as the Father (and I would agree with you that He did), then that can only leave us to conclude one thing - That He was, in fact, the one and only God, the Alpha and Omega, beginning and the end, just as He claimed to be.
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
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