TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[JLB]

Both. We are tainted by our sin, but not ravenous, rabies infested, foaming at the mouth, insane zombies.

You do understand that totally depraved and utterly depraved mean the same thing?

 

[JLB]

Total depravity and the Bible says that man cannot seek God.

please post the scripture that says man is totally depraved?

 

[LeviR]

Is that supposed to refute my point? No one seeks after God of their own accord; not then, not now.

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (ESV)

Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. (ESV)

Total depravity is biblical because people are spiritually dead and won't seek God of their volition. Rather, they prefer their sin. Every part of man is tainted with sin.

The truth is, the flesh and blood nature of mortal man is the driving force of what he does.
As long as a man sets his heart and mind on the things of this world, and all that it offers, he will not set them on the things of God. Because no man can serve two Masters. He will love the one and hate the other. You can’t serve God and material “success”.
Therefore, the problem with man is just as it was for Adam. He wants what he wants and puts God’s word in the background.
It has nothing to do with “Total Depravity”.
It has everything to do with “the lust of the flesh”.

This is what the Bible speaks of from cover to cover.
It’s very simple. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God because it is sinful.
The flesh and blood natural man made from dirt has no interest in the eternal things of God because his only interest is in the temporal things of this world. He is lost.

Paul speaks of this as being the condition of all those before they come to believe the gospel. And also speaks of it as their condition to why they would turn back to the world or to Egypt and bondage.

 

[LeviR]

If men have complete inability to live up to the law, what makes you think they will seek forgiveness?

They are unable to, they do not have the ability.

I will take it a step further, Paul says in chapter 8 that the unregenerate is at enmity with God, they want nothing to do with Him.

Rom 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God, for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
Rom 8:8 and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.

They seek forgiveness when they realize that the things of God, and what He is offering, are eternal and not temporal.

God offered the Jews a kingdom of their own. All the best of everything would be provided for them. They would have nothing to fear. Not from anyone. A hundred of them would chase away many thousands.

All they had to do was to obey His law completely.

What they failed to realize was that God had made the same promise to Abraham 430 years prior to the covenant He was then making with them.
The covenant He made with Abraham was not of the law but of promise by faith.

But Abraham died and never received those promises of the same inheritance God was offering the Israelites by keeping the law.

The way in which Abraham will receive what God promised is by resurrection from the dead. It is then, and only then, he is to inherit what God promised him.
He is to inherit the land God instructed him to walk while he was yet a stranger in that land. And he is to inherit it forever. It is an eternal inheritance.
It’s not a temporal inheritance whereby one generation passes it along to the next.

So, the Jews need to realize this.

 

[Whatever]

You do understand that totally depraved and utterly depraved mean the same thing?

Not in the sense that Calvinists use it. This is a problem with ambiguity (the quality or state of being ambiguous, especially in meaning, or a word or expression that can be understood in two or more possible ways.)

When we say "total" we mean that "all" of man's faculties (read the posts I put up about the heart) are effected, tainted or bent to the evil side.
We we say "not utterly" we mean that all of man's faculties are not tainted 100%.

Fallen men are totally depraved. They are evil but can still do good (from man's point of view)
but
Demons seem to be utterly depraved. Not sure they can do any good.

 

[JLB]

Not in the sense that Calvinists use it. This is a problem with ambiguity (the quality or state of being ambiguous, especially in meaning, or a word or expression that can be understood in two or more possible ways.)

That is the problem with using non-biblical words and terms and building a theology around those words which are not found in scripture.

This type of teaching using man made words is not how Jesus wants us to make disciples.

 

[Whatever]

You might consider labeling your post, “The Lust of the Flesh”

If you read everything I posted about the heart, flesh is doing what is in the heart.

This type of teaching using man made words is not how Jesus wants us to make disciples.

That is a crock. Every word you say in English is not what Jesus or Paul said in Aramaic or Greek or Moses said in Hebrew.

To translate Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek into English is: To change from one form, function, or state to another; convert or transform. English didn't exist in the 1st century, it is a man made language.

 

[LeviR]

If you read everything I posted about the heart, flesh is doing what is in the heart.

That is a crock. Every word you say in English is not what Jesus or Paul said in Aramaic or Greek or Moses said in Hebrew.

To translate Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek into English is: To change from one form, function, or state to another; convert or transform. English didn't exist in the 1st century, it is a man made language.

Take Jesus’ yoke upon you and learn from him. He is meek and lowly in heart. Matt 11:29

Jer 17:9
“The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?
Jer 17:10
I, the LORD, search the heart,
I test the mind,
Even to give every man according to his ways,
According to the fruit of his doings.

1Ch 28:9
“As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and with a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever.“

 

[Free]

That is the problem with using non-biblical words and terms and building a theology around those words which are not found in scripture.

Again, this is a silly and fallacious argument that, as I pointed out previously, puts the cart before the horse. Words are used to sum theological ideas generally given through larger amounts of text. This is simply a function of language.

This type of teaching using man made words is not how Jesus wants us to make disciples.

This is poor reasoning also and comes across as false piety. When one needs to communicate with others in another language, there are many times when word-for-word cannot be used, nor can idioms and other figures of speech. Instead other words are necessary to get the idea across in way that is understood by the listeners or readers, otherwise the message is lost.

The same is absolutely true of Scripture and the gospel. It's what happened when the Hebrew and Greek were translated into English, Latin, Ethiopian, etc., and it is what continues to happen when linguists translate the Bible into new languages and dialects, and missionaries learn other languages to spread the gospel.

 

[Free]

The truth is, the flesh and blood nature of mortal man is the driving force of what he does.
As long as a man sets his heart and mind on the things of this world, and all that it offers, he will not set them on the things of God. Because no man can serve two Masters. He will love the one and hate the other. You can’t serve God and material “success”.
Therefore, the problem with man is just as it was for Adam. He wants what he wants and puts God’s word in the background.
It has nothing to do with “Total Depravity”.
It has everything to do with “the lust of the flesh”.

This is what the Bible speaks of from cover to cover.
It’s very simple. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God because it is sinful.
The flesh and blood natural man made from dirt has no interest in the eternal things of God because his only interest is in the temporal things of this world. He is lost.

Paul speaks of this as being the condition of all those before they come to believe the gospel. And also speaks of it as their condition to why they would turn back to the world or to Egypt and bondage.

I'm not really sure what your point is as everything you state is in agreement with total depravity. Everything in natural man is tainted by sin and so is all that is done, said, and thought.

 

[JLB]

Again, this is a silly and fallacious argument that, as I pointed out previously, puts the cart before the horse. Words are used to sum theological ideas generally given through larger amounts of text. This is simply a function of language.


This is poor reasoning also and comes across as false piety. When one needs to communicate with others in another language, there are many times when word-for-word cannot be used, nor can idioms and other figures of speech. Instead other words are necessary to get the idea across in way that is understood by the listeners or readers, otherwise the message is lost.

The same is absolutely true of Scripture and the gospel. It's what happened when the Hebrew and Greek were translated into English, Latin, Ethiopian, etc., and it is what continues to happen when linguists translate the Bible into new languages and dialects, and missionaries learn other languages to spread the gospel.

Have a nice day.

If you are going to call names and ignore the plain and simple truth that using non scriptural words to build a theology only leads to arguing over words which I have proven are controversial.

Utterly and totally mean the same thing.

Period.

 

[Free]

Have a nice day.

If you are going to call names

Where did I call you a name or names? I didn't. Calling you out on poor reasoning isn't calling you a name. It's to try and get you to start thinking more critically so you can have better reasoning.

and ignore the plain and simple truth that using non scriptural words to build a theology only leads to arguing over words which I have proven are controversial.

Again, poor reasoning.

Utterly and totally mean the same thing.

Period.

Which is relevant how? What is your point? I asked you for clarification previously but you never provided it.

You initially stated:

"So we have this statement -

Total depravity refers to the theological belief that every part of human nature has been tainted by sin since the fall of Adam. Contrary to what some may assume, total depravity does not mean that humans are as sinful as they could possibly be, but rather that sin affects every aspect of our being, including our mind, will, emotions, and spirit.

And we have this statement -

• Not Utter Depravity: It doesn’t mean we’re as bad as possible, but highlights our total inability without God.

Totally Depraved?

Not Utter Depravity?

Both of these phrases contradict each other." HERE


I asked: "How exactly do they contradict each other?"


You replied with:

"Totally means utterly and utterly means totally.

To say a person is totally depraved, but not utterly depraved is a complete contradiction."

You're basing everything on single definitions of words that have more than one, while ignoring the statements themselves. That means you're ignoring the very context which defines what "total depravity" and "not utter depravity" mean. Just as with Scripture, you'll very often come to a wrong conclusion by reading things that way.

Just look at the synonyms for "utter" and see how many there are and that there are varying degrees of "utterness":

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/utter#synonyms

 

[JLB]

Where did I call you a name or names? I didn't. Calling you out on poor reasoning isn't calling you a name. It's to try and get you to start thinking more critically so you can have better reasoning.


Again, poor reasoning.


Which is relevant how? What is your point? I asked you for clarification previously but you never provided it.

You initially stated:

"So we have this statement -

Total depravity refers to the theological belief that every part of human nature has been tainted by sin since the fall of Adam. Contrary to what some may assume, total depravity does not mean that humans are as sinful as they could possibly be, but rather that sin affects every aspect of our being, including our mind, will, emotions, and spirit.

And we have this statement -

• Not Utter Depravity: It doesn’t mean we’re as bad as possible, but highlights our total inability without God.

Totally Depraved?

Not Utter Depravity?

Both of these phrases contradict each other." HERE


I asked: "How exactly do they contradict each other?"


You replied with:

"Totally means utterly and utterly means totally.

To say a person is totally depraved, but not utterly depraved is a complete contradiction."

You're basing everything on single definitions of words that have more than one, while ignoring the statements themselves. That means you're ignoring the very context which defines what "total depravity" and "not utter depravity" mean. Just as with Scripture, you'll very often come to a wrong conclusion by reading things that way.

Just look at the synonyms for "utter" and see how many there are and that there are varying degrees of "utterness":

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/utter#synonyms

I’m withdrawing myself from discussing anything with you.

You are carnal and immature.

You follow the teachings of John Calvin.
Christians are called to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? 1 Corinthians 3:1-4


You argue over non scriptural words and can’t even agree on a basic definition when it is shown to you.

You are silly and immature.

• but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling,

If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself. 1 Timothy 6:3-5



JLB

 

[Free]

I’m withdrawing myself from discussing anything with you.

That's fine.

You are carnal and immature.

There's the name-calling.

You follow the teachings of John Calvin.

Maybe one or two.

Christians are called to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Of course they are, but they aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? 1 Corinthians 3:1-4

Good thing no one here is saying such things.

You argue over non scriptural words

If a word isn't used in the Bible but it sums up biblical doctrine, then it's absolutely fine. That seems completely lost on you.

and can’t even agree on a basic definition when it is shown to you.

Prove that I have done so, and if I have, prove that the definition presented is correct. I have been asking you to define things and you have refused.

You are silly and immature.

Look, more name-calling.

• but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling,

It seems to me that you're the one obsessed with Calvinism. This is just one thread of many in which you rail against it so much. You even recently started one: https://christianforums.net/threads/unconditional-election.111727/

It's interesting how when someone defends a position or even just rational thought, they are the ones "obsessed with disputes and arguments over words," but when you are the one going into threads, and starting them, and arguing over words ("total" and "utter," for example) and causing strife, it's fine.

If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself. 1 Timothy 6:3-5

This just shows your lack of humility, since you are doing the very things you claim I am doing. Whereas you just want to rail against those you disagree, I want to help you think better. But, suit yourself.