Unconditional Election

[Whatever]

Is it a better concept of God that he has the power to stop all those things but does not do so?

This is getting into the subject of Theodicy. (from Latin theo-) + Greek dikē judgment, right
It is making a apologetic for how God and evil can co-exist. Throughout history there have been many theodicies.
The most popular one today (I don't subscribe to) is the
Free Will defense. I don't have anything handy on this but, here is a free downloadable PDF article on it. It is 371 pages so should be pretty thorough.

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/hays/Theodicy.pdf

It is also in ePub, .mobi formats.

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/hays/Theodicy%20-%20Steve%20Hays.mobi

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/hays/Theodicy%20-%20Steve%20Hays.epub

 

[Hidden In Him]

Is it a better concept of God that he has the power to stop all those things but does not do so?

Oh! LoL. Well, it would seem to be a given in either concept. But I suppose if He had the power contingent upon man calling out to Him for help, yes. I would think that better than believing He willed it and there was nothing man could do to change things.

Thanks for the rewording. Now that I'm reading it after your explanation it makes sense, but at the time I was like, "without because He didn't, yet He wouldn't because He couldn't. Don't you think?" LoL.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Abraham was an adult with a family when God called him out to leave and go to a place where God would show him. I would assume that Abraham was worshiping the same false god as his father before God calls him out to leave. I found one commentary that said:
In the case of Abraham this was probably the case, till he was called to the knowledge of God, when above 70 years old.

I understand that it not only could happen but does. The question, however, is why would He make it too. But never mind. No sense belaboring the point.

 

[electedbyHim]

Whatever

I want to piggyback off your post.


The Problem of Evil and Theodicy

One of the most persistent arguments against the existence of God is based on the existence of physical and moral evil in the world. The question that many unbelievers voice is, if God is real, perfectly good, and omnipotent, how can evil exist? John Frame details the classic “problem of evil” as follows:

Premise 1: If God were all-powerful, he would be able to prevent evil.
Premise 2: If God were all-good, he would desire to prevent evil.
Conclusion: So, if God were both all-powerful and all-good, there would be no evil.
Premise 3: But there is evil.
Conclusion: Therefore, there is no all-powerful, all-good God.78

The problem of evil has in view both physical evil (e.g., catastrophes, illness, pain, death) and moral evil (sin).

The Christian response to the problem of evil is called theodicy, which comes from the Greek words theos and dikē. These words combined mean “judicial hearing of God” (for dikē, see 2 Thess. 1:9; Jude 7), or the “justification of God.” Theodicy involves a vindication of God’s justice against the charge that the presence of evil in creation shows him to be unjust, impotent, both, or nonexistent. Theodicy declares that God is all-powerful and all-good even though this might not seem to be the case since evil exists in the creation.

Biblical Theodicy
The only proper theodicy comes from the Bible. When God is the One being charged before the court of human opinion, the Word of God provides a sufficient defense. God provides his own theodicy as he is revealed in his Word. John Frame has set forth principles of establishing God and his Word as the theodicy that is the legitimate response to the problem of evil.79

Scripture never assumes that God must explain his actions but rather asserts that he has the right to be trusted. In the Genesis 3 account of the beginning of moral and physical evil, God does not explain the origin of evil in Satan or how Adam and Eve could sin in a perfect world. Adam implied that God was at fault, but God did not defend himself and instead condemned Adam. In the Genesis 22 account of the sacrifice of Isaac, God does not explain how his command to sacrifice Isaac harmonizes with his goodness. According to Exodus 33:19, God will not submit to man’s judgment but will show grace and mercy to whomever he wills without needing to explain his actions.

In Job 38–41, after Job’s friends have blamed him for being the cause of his suffering, and after Job has expressed his desire to appeal to God, God asks the questions, asserting that man is incapable of understanding God’s workings in distributing good and evil. God never explains why Job had to suffer. And the book of Job never explains why Job had to suffer as a response to Satan’s charges. Job wanted to question p 223 God but was questioned by God. In Ezekiel 18:25–30, God does not defend himself against Israel’s charge of injustice but rather condemns Israel for injustice.

In the parable of the laborers in the vineyard in Matthew 20:1–16, the master does not defend himself against the charge of unfairly distributing payment but reverses the charge on the accusers. Divine sovereignty is thus asserted. The master presents his word as reliable. Proper perspective shows the generosity of the master, not any unfairness.

Similarly, in Romans 3:4–6, Paul does not ask questions about God’s fairness but rather rebukes such questions by asserting God’s rights as the sovereign Lord. In Romans 9:15–20, Paul affirms God’s sovereign right to do as he pleases; to question God is disrespectful “back talk.” According to Paul, man is disobedient in complaining against God. God is not obligated to explain his actions so as to satisfy human intellect with respect to the problem of evil. God’s sovereignty must always be reaffirmed. God’s Word is absolutely reliable, and Scripture is clear: God is holy, not unjust.

A Biblical Perspective on Evil

A proper biblical theodicy recognizes God’s right to do as he pleases, to not explain himself, to condemn sinners for the evil in the world, and to call sinners to accept him as the remedy for evil. God is just and good because justice and goodness are his very nature. God vindicates his justice by helping people see history from his perspective.

First, God gives perspective on the past. God has always vindicated himself by bringing periods of suffering to an end by an act of grace. He provided Moses to end four hundred years of bondage. And even Moses had to wait forty years for his commission. The wilderness journey was a period of waiting that culminated in entering the Promised Land. Even the journey had periods of waiting for water and food, all ended by God’s gracious preservation. The alternation between waiting periods and divine visitations continued in the cycles of bondage and deliverance under the judges and in the divided kingdom. The entire Old Testament period was a period of waiting for fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant. In the Old Testament period, the length of time involved a dialectic between justice and mercy, which posed a question about the consistency of God’s justice and mercy. Justice was predicted, but God also promised to fulfill his promises. Yet this fact raised the question of how God’s justice and mercy could be reconciled and harmonized without compromising one or both. God’s justice caused questions about his mercy and his mercy about his justice.

Jesus solved the Old Testament problem of evil by harmonizing divine justice and mercy. By his atoning death, he is the divine theodicy, vindicating both divine justice and mercy at the cross (Rom. 3:26; 5:8–9, 20–21). Grace reigns through righteousness, which is revealed by the gospel of grace (Rom. 1:17). And so through grace God moves us to praise his righteousness. Many Old Testament saints suffered more severely than any contemporary believers, and yet they died before seeing God’s conquest of evil through Christ’s cross. They had to trust that God would one day vindicate p 224 himself. How much more should new covenant believers trust God to vindicate his justice at Christ’s return according to his faithful promises.

Second, God gives perspective on the present. Scripture shows us that God has always used and is now presently using evil to fulfill his purposes for good. The solution of the problem of evil must be theocentric, not anthropocentric. It must not have as its aim to make man happier or freer but to glorify God. The greater-good defense is valid only if the greater good is seen as that which glorifies God more fully than a lesser good. Man’s happiness comes only through God-glorifying ways: obedience, self-denial, and suffering while anticipating final glory. When God’s greater good of divine glorification is accomplished, believers and all creation (excluding unbelievers) will have their own greater good (Rom. 8:28).

While not giving exhaustive explanations of all evil and while calling for patience in the midst of adversities, Scripture shows some ways in which God uses evil to further his purposes: to display divine grace and justice (Rom. 3:26; 5:8, 20–21; 9:17); to judge evil in the present and future (Matt. 23:35; John 5:14); to redeem through Christ’s sufferings (1 Pet. 3:18); to expand gospel witness through the suffering of Christ’s people (Col. 1:24); to shock unbelievers, get their attention, and call for a change of heart (Zech. 13:7–9; Luke 13:1–5; John 9); to discipline believers (Heb. 12:3–17); and to vindicate God (Rom. 3:26).

God assures that he always has a purpose for the glory of himself and the good of his people in every event (Rom. 8:28). All the evidence of God using evil for good should encourage his people to trust in faith that currently unexplained evils are divinely purposed for good.

Third, God gives perspective on the future. Scripture promises that God will be finally vindicated and believers fully delivered from evil. In the future, suffering will end in glory for believers, and prosperity will end in judgment for the wicked (Psalm 73; Isaiah 40; Matthew 25; Luke 1:46–55). When God seems unjust in the present, one needs to wait for God’s glory and judgment (Hab. 2:2–3) and remember his past acts (Hab. 3:1–18). In the future consummation, no one will doubt God’s justice and mercy. Not that he will give a final, exhaustive theoretical theodicy, but when he is revealed to all in the second advent of Christ, all doubts will be transformed into ashamed silence or reverential praise. And when Christ reigns in perfect righteousness, there will be no more problem of evil. If one believes in the final divine vindication, one needs only to trust now that the problem of evil is solved in the mind and sovereign counsel of God. So Scripture responds to the problem of evil not with philosophical reasoning but with divine reassurance of final divine vindication. All Christians should follow this pattern in articulating a theodicy to the world in the present.

Finally, Scripture provides proper perspective by serving as the means by which God gives a new heart to believers. Through the Word of God, the Spirit saves and transforms doubt to faith, humbling people of their prideful autonomy and leading them to give thanks for God’s mercy. Through his Word, God gives a new heart by which one sees Christ, believes, and praises (1 Cor. 2:12–13). The change of values p 225 given with the new heart lifts one’s eyes past the evils of this life to the God who will finally end evil and is even now using it for his purpose. This new perspective is the Christian’s theodicy.


Biblical Doctrine: A Systematic Summary of Bible Truth (Wheaton, IL: Crossway, 2017), 222–226.

Continued below...

 

[electedbyHim]

Compatibilistic Theodicy

Compatibilism holds that, when properly defined, human free will and divine determinism are complementary ideas; that is, it is possible to accept both without being logically inconsistent. Compatibilism contends that one’s will is free within the boundaries of one’s nature. Unregenerated human will is free only within the limitations of human finiteness and depravity. Since depraved human nature cannot obey God, fallen humans are free only to sin. Fallen humans sin freely in that they want to sin, doing so without coercion. A biblical theodicy accords with a compatibilistic view of human freedom.80 A biblical theodicy assumes not that man in his fallenness has the ability to obey God but rather that fallen humans in their corrupted nature choose only what serves their own pleasure and power. The following biblical principles explain how all this can be true:

1. God predetermines all events (Eph. 1:11).
2. The fall resulted in physical difficulties and catastrophes (Isa. 45:7; Rom. 8:20–22).
3. God predetermines sin but makes man accountable for his sin (Acts 2:23; 4:27–28; 14:16).
4. God hardens sinners in sin (Rom. 9:18).
5. God never tempts people to sin (James 1:13).
6. God is never blamed in Scripture for sin or portrayed as enjoying the sin he permits (Ps. 5:4).
7. God never coerces man to sin but ordains that man sin freely and thus be culpable (James 1:14–15).
8. God controls people’s sin, working mysteriously through secondary causes (2 Sam. 24:1, 10; 1 Chron. 21:1).
9. God is glorified in his justice when he causes calamities and judges sin (Isa. 45:5–7; Ezek. 28:22; John 9:2–5).
10. God has graciously provided salvation from sin for those who believe in Christ (Rom. 3:24–26).

Theodicy in Evangelism

As Christians engage with unbelievers, they must not think that they can vindicate God by principles outside the Word of God. Rather, they should express God’s inspired written theodicy by articulating its principles. These biblical principles can be illustrated by personal accounts, but the principles should be the ground of the conversation. To base theodicy on extrabiblical principles fails to present God as he has ordained in Scripture.

The Bible, being God’s theodicy, vindicates all his perfections by what he has p 226 revealed about what he has done in the past, is doing in the present, and will do in the future. As one presents God’s theodicy, one must not fall into the trap of pandering to what unsaved man thinks is best for his happiness but must seek to call people from sinful self-centeredness to humble, submissive repentance from sin and faith in the true God through Jesus Christ. One must not allow unsaved man to establish human well-being according to human desires, making human thinking the standard for divine justice and mercy.


78 John M. Frame, Apologetics to the Glory of God: An Introduction (Phillipsburg, NJ: P&R, 1994), 150.
e.g. exempli gratia, Latin for “for example”
79 Frame, Apologetics to the Glory of God, 171–90. The next sections largely synthesize Frame’s principles of how true biblical theodicy is established.
80 Pettegrew, “Doctrine of God,” 214–17.

Biblical Doctrine: A Systematic Summary of Bible Truth (Wheaton, IL: Crossway, 2017), 222–226.

 

[Arial]

But I suppose if He had the power contingent upon man calling out to Him for help, yes. I

You have said that you do not stay in these conversations long and I fully understand that. I usually stay in them well past the time I should have left them. But I do feel the need to comment on a couple of things here. I feel quite certain that many people were calling out to him in every situation that you have mentioned. To me a God who operated according to contingencies is a God whose promises could not be counted on. Especially when the contingencies contain many conflicting prayers and desires. And a God whose powers are contingent upon the will and desires of fallen man, is not a God who could rightly reveal himself as omnipotent.

It would be a major trust issue for me.

I would think that better than believing He willed it and there was nothing man could do to change things.

Well, that is the problem, I say grinning. We like to be in control and do not trust God to be in control. He might not let us have our way! I say that tongue in cheek.

But I also have to say that to express it as God "willed" that bad things would happen, is a mis-wording of the actual theology. It is people who exercise their will to do evil, not God willing that they do evil, that causes them to do it. And that is a result of the fall. God subjected all of creation to futility because of what Adam did, and we follow in Adam's footsteps. (Rom 8). We are reaping what we have sown. But God is setting it to rights, and the way he is doing it is perfect and can be nothing less because he is perfect. Already Jesus has secured freedom from the permanence of the fall for those he redeems through faith in his person and work. And he does tell us too, that the Christian will suffer. Jesus himself suffered beyond what we can comprehend---and the believer will never find out what that was like. Suffering is but for a night time, but joy cometh in the morning. Even if we die, yet we shall live.

 

[Whatever]

The greater-good defense is valid only if the greater good is seen as that which glorifies God more fully than a lesser good.

In Scott Christensen's book "What about Evil?: A Defense of God's Sovereign Glory"
He calls his theodicy the Greater Glory defense. Here's how he puts it:

I call my theodicy “the greater glory theodicy.” I call it that because I believe the problem of evil is the answer to the problem of evil. I shift the focus on that which brings about God’s greatest glory.

First, my simple argument is that God’s ultimate purpose in creating the world is to magnify His glory. He did not have to create the world. He has no need to create anything. He is fully satisfied in His own trinitarian being. Out of his own freedom He chose to create the world. Why did he create the world? We see from scripture and theology that he created the world to supremely magnify His glory to His creatures, His image-bearing creatures.

Second, God’s glory is demonstrated as being supremely magnified in the work of Christ and the work of redemption that He alone can achieve. God’s glory is most supremely magnified in what we might say is the incarnation, death resurrection, and exaltation of Christ.God is supremely magnified in that work. The main reason for the incarnation is that Christ would come and redeem for Himself a people for God’s glory.

Third, redemption would be unnecessary without the fall and presence of evil in this world. There would be no need for Christ to come and be incarnated, to suffer death on the cross as an atoning sacrifice. No need to rise from the dead and be re-exalted at the Father’s right hand. No need unless there was a crisis which is the fall of Adam and Eve and the subsequent curse that brings on creation. Evil itself is necessary for God to achieve His purpose to supremely magnify His glory to His creatures.

 

[Arial]

That book I actually read, but I just don't think He would have me worshipping Satan one day and then have me worshiping Him the next. Arial made the point that in a proper theology He would get everything he wants. He wanted me worshipping His enemy and then Him?

It's paramount to He Himself wanting the enemy to be worshipped.

Just to be clear. It was you worded the Calvinist view as God wanting evil things to happen, not me. I told you that it was a misrepresentation of what Calvinism does teach on the subject. He does not ever want evil. A holy God could not want it. His whole purpose it to wipe it out of existence. But we fell, evil came into us and into our world and we do evil things. It is us wanting to do evil, not God. But the evil we do he works for the good of his purposes.

As to why he would have you worshipping Satan one day and then him the next, and saying that he wanted you to be worshiping Satan, when he says we are to have no other god's before us, is not logical or biblical, or Calvinistic.

You were worshiping Satan one day, and God snatched you right out from under his nose. Say thank you.

Again, Whatever, I would ask, why did He make me serve Satan before this, and sing his praises? And in the case of some who came out of hardcore Satanism, why did He make them sacrifice children on the altar, and commit other atrocities in the name of Satan?

He didn't. And Calvinism does not teach that.

 

[electedbyHim]

In Scott Christensen's book "What about Evil?: A Defense of God's Sovereign Glory"
He calls his theodicy the Greater Glory defense. Here's how he puts it:

I call my theodicy “the greater glory theodicy.” I call it that because I believe the problem of evil is the answer to the problem of evil. I shift the focus on that which brings about God’s greatest glory.

First, my simple argument is that God’s ultimate purpose in creating the world is to magnify His glory. He did not have to create the world. He has no need to create anything. He is fully satisfied in His own trinitarian being. Out of his own freedom He chose to create the world. Why did he create the world? We see from scripture and theology that he created the world to supremely magnify His glory to His creatures, His image-bearing creatures.

Second, God’s glory is demonstrated as being supremely magnified in the work of Christ and the work of redemption that He alone can achieve. God’s glory is most supremely magnified in what we might say is the incarnation, death resurrection, and exaltation of Christ.God is supremely magnified in that work. The main reason for the incarnation is that Christ would come and redeem for Himself a people for God’s glory.

Third, redemption would be unnecessary without the fall and presence of evil in this world. There would be no need for Christ to come and be incarnated, to suffer death on the cross as an atoning sacrifice. No need to rise from the dead and be re-exalted at the Father’s right hand. No need unless there was a crisis which is the fall of Adam and Eve and the subsequent curse that brings on creation. Evil itself is necessary for God to achieve His purpose to supremely magnify His glory to His creatures.

I will look into this author.

Thank you.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

I never said the key words in the entire set of passages is “for all”, those are your words.

I emphasized the words for all because that is what the verse actually says and is in harmony with the rest of the New Testament theme.

Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of
the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. 1 Timothy 2:1-6

For all men seems to be a consistent theme in this set of verses.


It sure aligns with John 3:16.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


Maybe you could share with us the group of people who is excluded from God’s plan of salvation?

Matthew makes it clear in these passages with Jesus' words that people will be consigned to hell:

Mat_5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.
Mat_5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.
Mat_5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
Mat_10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat_18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.
Mat_23:15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.
Mat_23:33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

Hades was not a desirable place either:

Mat_11:23 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Luk_10:15 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades.
Act_2:27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.
Act_2:31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
Rev_1:18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.
Rev_6:8 And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.
Rev_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev_20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

 

[Whatever]

I will look into this author.

He has written a shorter compact version of his $30 book - What About Evil.
Defeating Evil: How God Glorifies Himself in a Dark World.
$17.56 - 240 pages

Defeating Evil: How God Glorifies Himself in a Dark World

Revised, adapted, and condensed for a broader audience, this companion edition to Scott Christensen’s lauded What about Evil? shows how sin, evil, corruption, and death fit into redemptive history. Exploring the storyline of Scripture and addressing practical concerns, Christensen shows that...

www.wtsbooks.com

Amazon has it for a few dollars more, but if you have Prime, free shipping would come out cheaper.

They have it for $14.50 here: But again you'll pay for shipping.

Defeating Evil: How God Glorifies Himself in a Dark World (Christensen)

Puritan and Reformed books at discounted prices.

www.heritagebooks.org

 

[electedbyHim]

He has written a shorter compact version of his $30 book - What About Evil.
Defeating Evil: How God Glorifies Himself in a Dark World.
$17.56 - 240 pages

Defeating Evil: How God Glorifies Himself in a Dark World

Revised, adapted, and condensed for a broader audience, this companion edition to Scott Christensen’s lauded What about Evil? shows how sin, evil, corruption, and death fit into redemptive history. Exploring the storyline of Scripture and addressing practical concerns, Christensen shows that...

www.wtsbooks.com

Amazon has it for a few dollars more, but if you have Prime, free shipping would come out cheaper.

They have it for $14.50 here: But again you'll pay for shipping.

Defeating Evil: How God Glorifies Himself in a Dark World (Christensen)

Puritan and Reformed books at discounted prices.

www.heritagebooks.org

So you are familair with his work.

From what you posted, his writing style seems easy to read.

 

[Randy]

God is involved and our will is involved.
Criteria is given on grace/favor given and it doesn't state prechosen: God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud. Blessed are the poor in spirit.
Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

 

[electedbyHim]

God is involved and our will is involved.
Criteria is given on grace/favor given and it doesn't state prechosen: God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud. Blessed are the poor in spirit.
Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

The Bible teaches the opposite as many have pointed out.

Unregenerate man hates God....
Romans 8:5-8 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God, for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.

Unregenerate man is blinded by satan.....
2 Corinthians 4:4 in whose case the god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

The gospel is foolishness to unregenerate man.....
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God.

The heart contains the thoughts and intentions that ultimately shape a person’s behavior and will.
Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can know it?

Once regenerated, mans will is not bent towards sin, now it wants to please God.

 

[Whatever]

So you are familair with his work.

As far as I know he has only written 3 books. I've never been to college or seminary and I found them easy to read.
What about Free Will?: Reconciling Our Choices with God's Sovereignty - February 2016
What about Evil?: A Defense of God's Sovereign Glory - November 2020
Defeating Evil: How God Glorifies Himself in a Dark World - March 2024

Scott Christensen (MDiv, The Master's Seminary) serves as the associate pastor of Kerrville Bible Church in Kerrville, Texas.

He has a Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/scott.christensen.52035

 

[Randy]

The Bible teaches the opposite as many have pointed out.

So before the gift of the Spirit was poured out all hated God?

Unregenerate man hates God....
Romans 8:5-8 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God, for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.

Reads like choices made while in the life of the body to me. Clearly though Jesus taught all who sin are slaves to sin unless the Son sets them free. And if the Son sets them free, they shall be free indeed.

Unregenerate man is blinded by satan.....
2 Corinthians 4:4 in whose case the god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

They have no fear of God. To fear the Lord is to hate evil.
The one who sows the weeds is the devil who leads the whole world astray.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

The gospel is foolishness to unregenerate man.....
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God.

The criteria for grace and favor for God to grant repentance that leads to the knowledge of the truth. Is the poor and humble and those who fear Him/God.

The heart contains the thoughts and intentions that ultimately shape a person’s behavior and will.
Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can know it?

Once regenerated, mans will is not bent towards sin, now it wants to please God.

Where sin abounds grace abounds more.

 

[electedbyHim]

So before the gift of the Spirit was poured out all hated God?

Reads like choices made while in the life of the body to me. Clearly though Jesus taught all who sin are slaves to sin unless the Son sets them free. And if the Son sets them free, they shall be free indeed.

They have no fear of God. To fear the Lord is to hate evil.
The one who sows the weeds is the devil who leads the whole world astray.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.


The criteria for grace and favor for God to grant repentance that leads to the knowledge of the truth. Is the poor and humble and those who fear Him/God.

Where sin abounds grace abounds more.

So before the gift of the Spirit was poured out all hated God?

They are enemies of God, enemy is the better word.
Romans 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God, for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so

Reads like choices made while in the life of the body to me. Clearly though Jesus taught all who sin are slaves to sin unless the Son sets them free. And if the Son sets them free, they shall be free indeed.

Where is ther choice in the verses?

Romans 8:5-8 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God, for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.

They have no fear of God. To fear the Lord is to hate evil.
The one who sows the weeds is the devil who leads the whole world astray.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

Not certain what fear has to do with the verse I posted

2 Corinthians 4:4 in whose case the god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

The criteria for grace and favor for God to grant repentance that leads to the knowledge of the truth. Is the poor and humble and those who fear Him/God.

One must be humble and fear Him for repentance?

 

[Randy]

They are enemies of God, enemy is the better word.
Romans 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God, for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Repentance is granted from above. I'm not convinced people are pre chosen before they do good or bad. God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud. God loves those who fear Him. Train up a child in the way they should go and when they're old they will never depart. Jesus spoke of the pharisees making converts twice the son of hell they were. So outside influences from man are also in play. I was steered to Christ from my beginning by Christian parents. I still hold to the testimony of Christ and I now have white hair. I am not arrogant to state I was pre chosen to be saved. I just rejoice that I am saved. I believe my will was involved in choices made.

Where is ther choice in the verses?

Romans 8:5-8 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God, for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.

"Put into practice" is the theme I read and it's a choice made.(set their minds on) If satan had reign over the will of people he would not need to tempt and deceive them like he did EVE in the garden. Satan sows the weeds and he leads the whole world astray and he is a enemy of God.

Not certain what fear has to do with the verse I posted

2 Corinthians 4:4 in whose case the god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.


One must be humble and fear Him for repentance?

I read God gives grace to the humble and delights in those who fear Him. That He resists the proud. Those who fear the Lord hate evil.
I believe God grants repentance. The disagreement seems to be on the why. I believe God knows those who have faith to be saved. If Paul can see that how much more the living God can see with His eyes.

He listened to Paul as he was speaking. Paul looked directly at him, saw that he had faith to be healed

 

[Hidden In Him]

You have said that you do not stay in these conversations long and I fully understand that. I usually stay in them well past the time I should have left them.

Sorry about not responding Arial. I was browsing this thread at work and realized you responded and I apparently never got the alert. I used to be like this too, but I eventually just turned a new leaf. Aside from getting rough, I just found it didn't really accomplish much. As I'm sure you know, on those occasions when you bring someone to the place where they have no answer, they still won't change their opinions. They just evade you and dodge in various ways, and flat ignore you if all else fails. So most of the time now I will really only engage someone if they are new and I'm wanting to get to know them a little, and check their acumen and demeanor, and their online savvy. Once that's over I'm usually out again, LoL.

Especially when the contingencies contain many conflicting prayers and desires. And a God whose powers are contingent upon the will and desires of fallen man, is not a God who could rightly reveal himself as omnipotent.

I noticed you mention how one of my comments is not really how the theology works, and there may be a lot of that in various ways on both sides a lot of times. I think this is another occasion, because in my theology the overall will of God is not effected by man, and His will will be done. But when it comes to "microcosm" issues that will not affect things either way, yes, He listens to the prayers of men. Too many places where He teaches to remain determined in prayer until you receive, or were He did in fact alter one of His decisions because of the prayers of one of His own.

Just to be clear. It was you worded the Calvinist view as God wanting evil things to happen, not me. I told you that it was a misrepresentation of what Calvinism does teach on the subject. He does not ever want evil. A holy God could not want it. His whole purpose it to wipe it out of existence. But we fell, evil came into us and into our world and we do evil things. It is us wanting to do evil, not God. But the evil we do he works for the good of his purposes.

As to why he would have you worshipping Satan one day and then him the next, and saying that he wanted you to be worshiping Satan, when he says we are to have no other god's before us, is not logical or biblical, or Calvinistic.

You were worshiping Satan one day, and God snatched you right out from under his nose. Say thank you.

Ok. I must confess I still don't understand it fully. Maybe at a later time we can go through this aspect of things together and you can explain more : )

Blessings! Hope you have a wonderful day, and it was pleasant talking with you.
- H