Understanding Mary - Mother of God

[Mungo]

I'll keep to it. Let's discuss The Immaculate Conception. Now before you go flipping off at the keyboard, I believe she is the Immaculate Conception. I just believe it in a different way. A way that I can prove and do not need the use of Apocrypha books written two centuries after the fact. I will show with Canon -66, 73, 75, 81 whichever, what it truly means. If you are up to the task I think it will be quite engaging.

Stop right there.
If you want to discuss the Immaculate Conception then start a thread on it not divert this one.

 

[Mungo]

No contradiction.

Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish …​

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

John 5:
35John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you were willing for a season to bask in his light. 36But I have testimony more substantial than that of John. For the works that the Father has given Me to accomplish—the very works I am doing—testify about Me that the Father has sent Me. 37And the Father who sent Me has Himself testified about Me. You have never heard His voice nor seen His form, 38nor does His word abide in you, because you do not believe the One He sent.

The Witness of Scripture

39You pore over the Scriptures because you presume that by them you possess eternal life. These are the very words that testify about Me, 40yet you refuse to come to Me to have life.

41I do not accept glory from men, 42but I know you, that you do not have the love of God within you. 43I have come in My Father’s name, and you have not received Me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44How can you believe if you accept glory from one another, yet do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?

45Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, in whom you have put your hope. 46If you had believed Moses, you would believe Me, because he wrote about Me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?”

Stop it.
The topic is Mary - Mother of God

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Mary, Mother of God
"The Holy Virgin is the Mother of God (Theotokos) since according to the flesh she brought forth the Word of God made flesh" (Council of Ephesus, 431 AD)

“What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, para 487)

Let us therefore start with Jesus. The early centuries of Christianity were marked by controversies over the nature of Jesus Christ. Was he God? Was he man? Was he born human and became God?
The definition of Mary as Theotokos (literally “God bearer”) at the Council of Ephesus in 431 was made in response to a fifth century heresy called Nestorianism which said that Mary did not carry God but only carried Christ’s human nature in her womb.

Nestorians claimed that Mary did not give birth to a unified person but tried to separate Jesus’ human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate persons, one human and one divine in a loose affiliation.

But a woman carries a person in her womb, not just a human nature. Mary carried, and gave birth to, the person of Jesus Christ, and that person was God, the second person of the Trinity.

This does not mean Mary is older than God, or that she is the source of her Son’s divinity. She is the Mother of God in that she carried in her womb, and gave birth to, a divine person – Jesus Christ, God “in the flesh”

The definition of Ephesus was not to glorify Mary but to affirm that Jesus’ two natures – divine and human were united in one divine person.

The logic is:
Jesus is God
Mary is the mother of Jesus
Therefore Mary is the mother of God.

Scripture Summary
Jesus is God
Jesus Christ is the Word, the second person of the Trinity.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (Jn 1:1)

Mary is the mother of Jesus
He assumed human nature (came in the flesh)
“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (Jn 1:14)

Where did the Word become flesh? In the womb of Mary
“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.” (Lk 1:31).
“God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law” (Gal 4:4).

Mary was the mother of that son. The Word that became flesh, the second Person of the Trinity in human form, though still divine.
“who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.” (Phil 2:6-8)

Therefore Mary is the mother of God
In Lk 1:43 Elizabeth says (while “filled with the Holy Spirit”) And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord (kuriou) should come to me? Several times in chapter 1 Luke uses kurios for God (indeed Mary herself does in verse 38). So Elizabeth calling Mary The mother of my Lord is calling her the mother of my God.

Hello Mungo, but how have you been since the last time we discussed: Who Changed The Sabbath To Sunday, and now this? have you read the below article? just asking! as I can see you are of that kind of belief in reasoning.

Why Mary Is Not The Mother Of God | Biblical Christianity

Mary is not the mother of God because she did not give rise to the being of God. “Mother of God” is the Greek term theotokos, which literally means “God-bearer.”

biblical-christianity.com

Love, Walter

 

[God Is My Judge]

No contradiction.

Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish …​

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

John 5:
35John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you were willing for a season to bask in his light. 36But I have testimony more substantial than that of John. For the works that the Father has given Me to accomplish—the very works I am doing—testify about Me that the Father has sent Me. 37And the Father who sent Me has Himself testified about Me. You have never heard His voice nor seen His form, 38nor does His word abide in you, because you do not believe the One He sent.

The Witness of Scripture

39You pore over the Scriptures because you presume that by them you possess eternal life. These are the very words that testify about Me, 40yet you refuse to come to Me to have life.

41I do not accept glory from men, 42but I know you, that you do not have the love of God within you. 43I have come in My Father’s name, and you have not received Me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44How can you believe if you accept glory from one another, yet do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?

45Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, in whom you have put your hope. 46If you had believed Moses, you would believe Me, because he wrote about Me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?”

And continuing....The only thing for sure put to rest is animal sacrifice. Animal sacrifice after all was only a symbol of atonement that would quite literally be done by the lamb of God.

Hebrews10:
Christ's Perfect Sacrifice
…11Day after day every priest stands to minister and to offer again and again the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this Priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time, He waits for His enemies to be made a footstool for His feet,…

Abstinence from food and circumcision are optional now, not a prerequisite. Stoning and such punishments abolished because He is the ransom for our sins. But I argue, show me where an Israelite stoned another Israelite in the OT? People talk about how barbaric the Mosaic covenant was. Laws are put in place as warnings to not break or die. Men's governments have such laws. God ultimately stoned Israel at various times when they collectively or as a large majority, broke their end of the bargain in the Covenant. He can, He is God! As for battles among kings and killing usurpers and plotters, that is another story. Either way the Prince of peace came and killing abolished among the brethren.

Isaiah 9:

4For as in the day of Midian

You have shattered the yoke of their burden,

the bar across their shoulders,
} ( Represented by the cross put upon Christ.)
and the rod of their oppressor.

5For every trampling boot of battle

and every garment rolled in blood

will be burned as fuel for the fire. } (There will be no blood shed upon His Holy Mountain. This is still unfolding to the time of peace granted to the Elect promised by Mother Mary and the prophets.)

6For unto us a child is born,

unto us a son is given,

and the government will be upon His shoulders.

And He will be called

Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,

Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7Of the increase of His government and peace } ( It will increase to such a point fulfilling what Mother Mary said

in Fatima and Garabandal. In behalf of the Elect, this time of Tribulation- (began with Covid-19 agenda- biological warfare, and will culminate to conventional war, for their Sake those days will be shortened) -" My Immaculate heart will triumph and the world will be granted a certain time of Peace"- Mother Mary. The Elect's final battle will come after ( "those days the length of a Tree") THEN COMES THE END! Nation will rise against nation - Satan's nation against the Nation of true Israel- kingdom against kingdom- REFERENCING TWO HERE is what Christ is actual doing. The Elect's final battle will be against fallen angels and Nephilim. What the Deceiver want's the ignorant ( THE LUKEWARM), masses to believe are aliens and Human 2.0 ).

there will be no end. ( There will be no end to the increase of His peace it is eternal, we are at the end of the age entering the colliding of Age and eternity)

He will reign on the throne of David

and over his kingdom,

to establish and sustain it

with justice and righteousness

from that time and forevermore.

The zeal of the LORD of Hosts will accomplish this.

 

[God Is My Judge]

Stop it.
The topic is Mary - Mother of God

John 2:5 5His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever He tells you.”
She has no problem with me leaning upon her son. It is what she is all about.

 

[Mungo]

Hello Mungo, but how have you been since the last time we discussed: Who Changed The Sabbath To Sunday, and now this? have you read the below article? just asking! as I can see you are of that kind of belief in reasoning.

Why Mary Is Not The Mother Of God | Biblical Christianity

Mary is not the mother of God because she did not give rise to the being of God. “Mother of God” is the Greek term theotokos, which literally means “God-bearer.”

biblical-christianity.com

Love, Walter

The reasons why I support Mary's title of Mother of God is laid out in the OP.
If you think I'm wrong then please show me.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

The reasons why I support Mary's title of Mother of God is laid out in the OP.
If you think I'm wrong then please show me.

Sir, I did say that you are wrong in your belief because I have my beliefs also, but I'm just asking you by reasoning, have you read that article?
Walter

 

[Mungo]

Sir, I did say that you are wrong in your belief because I have my beliefs also, but I'm just asking you by reasoning, have you read that article?
Walter

This is a discussion Forum. My understanding is that it is for discussion between the people on the forum.
I don't read long articles. I don't watch long videos.
I could post you many long articles on this topic from Catholic Answers.
Would you read them all?
If you have problems with what I wrote then point them out and we can discuss them.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

This is a discussion Forum. My understanding is that it is for discussion between the people on the forum.
I don't read long articles. I don't watch long videos.
I could post you many long articles on this topic from Catholic Answers.
Would you read them all?
If you have problems with what I wrote then point them out and we can discuss them.

We have read your discussions but you have not realized the context of ours as of yet to agree but to your faith in Catholic, Why?

 

[Mungo]

We have read your discussions but you have not realized the context of ours as of yet to agree but to your faith in Catholic, Why?

That statement doesn't make sense to me.
What is your problem with the OP?

 

[Edward]

It's my understanding that the Immaculate conception has been more or less proven. Biblical Archeologist Ron Wyatt found the Ark of the Covenant in a cave under Golgatha. And when he got a good a good look at it, it had a dark dried substance on it's top. So he scraped off a sample into a film canister and then took it to a lab to be ID'd. It was dried blood. They didn't think they could do much to it for testing because dried blood is dead blood.

So Ron asked them to reconstitute it and try anyway and after 48 hours he will come back to witness what they are able to fond out. So they did. It was Ron's dime so they did it.

The blood was still alive under the microscope, human but missing 23 (?) Chromosones. They're supposed have 46 I think. 23 from the mom and 23 from the dad. And this blood, had no dad chromosone! So the lab people said who's blood is this? They should not be alive. The blood shows no father chromosones...

That brought Ron to tears. This is the Savior's blood.

The ark of the Covenant was directly underneath the cross hole. And at the moment Jesus gave up the ghost, there was an earthquake and the rocks split and created a channel for the blood (and water) to be carried down to the Mercy seat and be there as the offering for man's salvation!

There is a ton of videos on Youtube with Ron Wyatt telling the story and showing the videos.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

That statement doesn't make sense to me.
What is your problem with the OP?

Conclusion​

Mary is not the mother of God in the sense that she gave rise to the being of God. We normally use the word “mother” to refer to the one who gave rise to us as individuals, and from whom we derived our human nature. Yet the divine Person who became Jesus, the eternal Son of God (Colossians 1:13-17), the Logos (John 1:1-14), has existed eternally and is the Creator of Mary.

Mary was used to bring the Incarnate One into the world, but she did not add to or give rise to the Eternal son who came into the world through her. Her Child was fully divine (hence she is theotokos) but she herself did not give rise to the divinity of her Son. For this reason, there can be nothing about the term theotokos that in any way exalts Mary, but only Christ.

Of course, if this is true, then the vast majority of the use of the phrase “Mother of God” in our world today is simply in error. Prayers addressed to “Mother of God” that seek her intercession and ascribe to her power and glory and honor are using the title in a way completely foreign to the biblical truths that gave rise to it in the first place.

And the fact that, in general, the term is avoided as improper outside the narrow spectrum in which it speaks to the important truth of the uni-personality of Christ, as well as His full deity, is a testimony to the spiritual sensitivity of believing Christians.

We cannot help but conclude that the use of “Mother of God” as a title for Mary that leads to her being seen in quasi-divine categories is nothing but a gross misunderstanding of the true relationship between the Blessed Virgin of Nazareth and the eternal God who sent the eternal Son to be born of her.

Walter

 

[Mungo]

It's my understanding that the Immaculate conception has been more or less proven. Biblical Archeologist Ron Wyatt found the Ark of the Covenant in a cave under Golgatha. And when he got a good a good look at it, it had a dark dried substance on it's top. So he scraped off a sample into a film canister and then took it to a lab to be ID'd. It was dried blood. They didn't think they could do much to it for testing because dried blood is dead blood.

So Ron asked them to reconstitute it and try anyway and after 48 hours he will come back to witness what they are able to fond out. So they did. It was Ron's dime so they did it.

The blood was still alive under the microscope, human but missing 23 (?) Chromosones. They're supposed have 46 I think. 23 from the mom and 23 from the dad. And this blood, had no dad chromosone! So the lab people said who's blood is this? They should not be alive. The blood shows no father chromosones...

That brought Ron to tears. This is the Savior's blood.

The ark of the Covenant was directly underneath the cross hole. And at the moment Jesus gave up the ghost, there was an earthquake and the rocks split and created a channel for the blood (and water) to be carried down to the Mercy seat and be there as the offering for man's salvation!

There is a ton of videos on Youtube with Ron Wyatt telling the story and showing the videos.

This has nothing to do with the topic.
Please keep to the topic.

 

[Edward]

Mary is not the mother of God in the sense that she gave rise to the being of God.

This is absolutely correct. The Word became flesh...and Mary was honored with being allowed (even chosen!) to participate in this wonderful work of God.

God don't need man to do anything. That's why it is an Honor to Mary to participate in bringing God this Glory!

The Mother of our Savior perhaps.
Not the Mother of God.

I'm guessing that Mary is likely the single most closet person to God than any humankind has ever been. So...I'd give her very very very much respect!

 

[Edward]

This has nothing to do with the topic.
Please keep to the topic.

Isn't this a thread about Mary and the Immaculate conception?

Sorry if I posted wrong. I didn't read all the posts in this thread but know I heard something about Mary, Immaculate Conception...so I went on that.

The thread is about Mary, isn't it?

 

[T. E. Smith]

I disagree with your analysis but this is going off topic so I won't explain further. If you wish to argue against the whole basis of Christianity then please take it to the main part of the Forum.
The topic is Understanding Mary - Mother of God.
Please keep to it.

Very well.

 

[Mungo]

Isn't this a thread about Mary and the Immaculate conception?

Sorry if I posted wrong. I didn't read all the posts in this thread but know I heard something about Mary, Immaculate Conception...so I went on that.

The thread is about Mary, isn't it?

Read the Title

Understanding Mary - Mother of God​

It's not about he Immaculate Conception.

 

[Mungo]

Conclusion​

Mary is not the mother of God in the sense that she gave rise to the being of God. We normally use the word “mother” to refer to the one who gave rise to us as individuals, and from whom we derived our human nature. Yet the divine Person who became Jesus, the eternal Son of God (Colossians 1:13-17), the Logos (John 1:1-14), has existed eternally and is the Creator of Mary.

Giving rise to someone is a very peculiar phrase. Leaving that aside I agree that Mary did not give Jesus his divine nature but she gave him his human nature.

Mary was used to bring the Incarnate One into the world, but she did not add to or give rise to the Eternal son who came into the world through her. Her Child was fully divine (hence she is theotokos) but she herself did not give rise to the divinity of her Son. For this reason, there can be nothing about the term theotokos that in any way exalts Mary, but only Christ.

I don't like the term "being used" but that apart I agree.

Of course, if this is true, then the vast majority of the use of the phrase “Mother of God” in our world today is simply in error. Prayers addressed to “Mother of God” that seek her intercession and ascribe to her power and glory and honor are using the title in a way completely foreign to the biblical truths that gave rise to it in the first place.

That may be your opinion but I disagree. It is normal and correct that when a woman conceives a child in her womb, nurtures that child in her womb for 9 months, and then to give birth to that child, she is considered the mother of that child.

And the fact that, in general, the term is avoided as improper outside the narrow spectrum in which it speaks to the important truth of the uni-personality of Christ, as well as His full deity, is a testimony to the spiritual sensitivity of believing Christians.

That’s not a fact, just an opinion.

We cannot help but conclude that the use of “Mother of God” as a title for Mary that leads to her being seen in quasi-divine categories is nothing but a gross misunderstanding of the true relationship between the Blessed Virgin of Nazareth and the eternal God who sent the eternal Son to be born of her.

Walter

The title Mother of God does not lead Mary to being seen in a divine capacity, quasi or otherwise. The Catholic Church is very clear on that.

 

[Edward]

Read the Title

Understanding Mary - Mother of God​

It's not about he Immaculate Conception.

Gotcha'.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Giving rise to someone is a very peculiar phrase. Leaving that aside I agree that Mary did not give Jesus his divine nature but she gave him his human nature.


I don't like the term "being used" but that apart I agree.



That may be your opinion but I disagree. It is normal and correct that when a woman conceives a child in her womb, nurtures that child in her womb for 9 months, and then to give birth to that child, she is considered the mother of that child.


That’s not a fact, just an opinion.

The title Mother of God does not lead Mary to being seen in a divine capacity, quasi or otherwise. The Catholic Church is very clear on that.

Thank you, but where in the bible can a person find that title? the closest that I can find is:

Luke 1:26-33


​

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Walter