Understanding The Law Of Moses - With The Help Of The Prophets And The Apostles

[Rookie]

Christians are led by the Holy Spirit. I did not say that Christians are not guided by anything.
By the way, what commandment of Law tells us that we must offer our son on the altar?

Not our son, but ourselves (Romans 12:1)

First of all, I did not claim that the law was nullified. I wrote that we are free from it because the law has already been fully fulfilled for us.

And you can easily make a new believer think they can do whatever they want to do.

Secondly, you call a statement that you yourself came up with heresy.
And yet, do you acknowledge that the power of sin is the law, as written in Corinthians 15:56? Or is your mind rebelling against this statement?

I was just giving a synopsis of everything you said. As I will repeat read the Scripture I gave you in Romans.

 

[light breeze]

I like the NT.
It's the full revelation of God.
Spoken to us by Jesus.
Proven by the words of the Apostles.
And by the resurrection of our Lord.

It's clear and simple to understand.
Difficult to misunderstand what Jesus taught.

For instance, in the OT the concept of hell was not clear.
Some believed it and some did not.
The devil was portrayed by a snake in the Garden because it was considered to be evil.
Some did not believe in the Devil as a being.

Jesus made everything clear.

It's clear if you believe
It is not easy for everyone to accept that keeping the commandments of the law does not bring praise before God.
Romans 4:2
"For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God."

 

[light breeze]

Not our son, but ourselves (Romans 12:1)

This verse is not talking about the law of commandments.
If you consider yourself obligated before the law to keep its commandments, then you yourself will be responsible, because you have rejected grace and redemption in Christ.

 

[light breeze]

I was just giving a synopsis of everything you said. As I will repeat read the Scripture I gave you in Romans.

That is, your mind is actually rebelling

 

[journeymanisnothing]

No John the Baptist presented confession of sin and the need for Jesus.

What I am looking for is how others see Repentance in tne Old and New Testament.

I might have good enough scriptures but you might see something better.

The thread is not just about what eddif thinks. Oh I have thoughts, but others may have input I never considered. On the evidence of two or three witness shall a thing be established. Those witnesses can be people, biology, OT, NT, word of knowledge, etc.

Your sons and daughters shall prophecy.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

John the baptizer said repent and follow Jesus. All of the Prophets said repent and follow God. I believe the only difference is,

God.....in these last days spoken unto us by his Son Heb.1:1-2

Is that your understanding?

 

[eddif]

It's not necessary for salvation

By the way, what commandment of Law tells us that we must offer our son on the altar?

Wow so much I would like to say and so little intelligence to get it said.

Let’s start with light breeze
God is basically the one offering his son.

Revelation 13:8 kjv
8. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So God understood that sin would require the death of his only begotten son at creation.

I highly doubt man knew that in the beginning. However at a point Satan must have known.

A false god arose that demanded the sacrafice of children. Moloch (?).
Eventually pagans (and Some of the people of Israel) began to offer their children to the false God.

If we can not separate the thoughts we become confused.

Satan wants children. light breeze the command comes from Satan at times.

Can I totally understand Abraham and God? No. But I do understand the source difference.
……….

Soldiers
Acts 2:37 kjv
37. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Three things are needed. One thing is salvation.
Acts 4:11 kjv
11. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Repentance is not salvation, but it makes us need salvation. We need saving from our sin.

Salvation comes from believing in Jesus.

The Holy Spirit gives the power to Witness to others.

Ok is it necessary? Interesting question we just need to delete.
The instructions are
Repent
Believe in Jesus
Receive the Holy Spirit

There are a lot of questions we need to ignore. Satan started questions in the Garden of Eden. Useless questions can lead us astray.

2AM oh well
Did / Does it make sense?

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

John the baptizer said repent and follow Jesus. All of the Prophets said repent and follow God. I believe the only difference is,

God.....in these last days spoken unto us by his Son Heb.1:1-2

Is that your understanding?

The OT pretty much says God, and turn from wicked ways. The hints abound about:
A Messiah
A suffering servant
A Virgin bearing a son
Much more

When the Son is revealed and finished his work, it all becomes clearer.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Rookie]

This verse is not talking about the law of commandments.
If you consider yourself obligated before the law to keep its commandments, then you yourself will be responsible, because you have rejected grace and redemption in Christ.

So which circles back to the synopsis of your argument, Christians are not bound to any standard, so, therefore, they can do whatever they want and define the standard for themselves and claim the Holy Spirit behind it and trust that I know what's good & evil, & I know how the Spirit's voice is, so I don't need the Bible, God's Word, or His perfect will & law to measure up against it (which according to your ideology, it's sinful, which is another contradictory and means since God owns something sinful, we shouldn't trust Him because He lied about being sinless, therefore the whole Bible is tainted and cannot be trusted).
Since the law says do not murder, do not steal, do not commit adultery, honor your parents, do not envy, do not have any other Gods before Him, and taking light breeze's argument that the law is sinful and we are free from it.

That means the command to not murder is evil, therefore I can still.
The command to obey my parents is evil, therefore I can disrespect them all I want.
That means that the command against envying, murdering, lying, and idolatry is evil, since the law is evil, and that is apart of the law, I can therefore not commit evil by not obeying the law, and I can steal, murder, lie, and worship whatever or whoever I want before God.

You can deny it, but that is what you're argument is saying...

And also to note, the same claims your getting your ideology from, comes from the same Word, Written Will of God you're trying to say is sinful. How can you use something from itself to prove itself is a fraud, unless it's contradictory.


If you truly believe this isn't the case, then only 2 things are possible. You're interpretation of Scripture is wrong, or my interpretation of what your interpretation of Scripture is wrong (which before you rush to pick option 2, explain how it's wrong and how that reconciles with Romans? You don't use Scripture to refute Scripture, all of it is God-breathed and coaligns with each other - 2 Timothy 3:16-17)

That is, your mind is actually rebelling

Opinion without any evidence behind it, doesn't even make any sense.

 

[eddif]

I suppose for this post I wii go back to: commandments contained in ordinances.

Thou shall not muzzle an ox as it is treading out the corn is an ordinance.

If anyone can help. See this statement. Please post. Allowing / feeding the good working ox seems to be an ordinance. Paying a worker seems to be a commandment.

We have to be sure we realize the difference.

The commandments (IMHO) seem to be the truth placed in our hearts. The commandments are not from our carnal mind.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Mr. G Lee]

This thread is not meant to be a battle field. This is an age old discussion, that can get out of hand. If I get out of line remove me. The Moderators and Administrators may drop by at any time, and can ask for clarification at any time (ten times in a row if necessary). Forum rules will apply.
Jewish background people are welcome, gentile background peoples are welcome, Christian background people are welcome, Sons and Daughters are welcome.
Scriptures are really needed. Traditions will be discussed.

That said. This thread is not trying to get anyone circumcised or follow the law of Moses. But. We may discuss all aspects and why for a time it was done. The reasons why will be discussed.

Matthew 5:17 kjv
17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Moses is used to represent the letter of the law God's instrument of "death" along with the prophets the testimony of the law . Two represents God has spoken throughout the Bible

The law of His faithfulness . .His righteousness . . . . .(1#) Let there be and (2#) the testimony of the law it was good revealed by the prophets (sola scriptura)

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Both the power of life and death one tongue. . .as it is written

 

[journeymanisnothing]

The OT pretty much says God, and turn from wicked ways. The hints abound about:
A Messiah
A suffering servant
A Virgin bearing a son
Much more

When the Son is revealed and finished his work, it all becomes clearer.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Jesus is already revealed by the work he finished,

declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: Rom.1:4

The commandments show mankind sinning against God and his loving us in spite of it. The commandments show mankind sinning against Jesus and his loving us in spite of it. The commandments show mankind sinning against our Lords' disciples and us loving them in spite of it,

Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter. Psa.44:22

conformed to the image of his Son Rom.8:29

 

[light breeze]

So which circles back to the synopsis of your argument, Christians are not bound to any standard, so, therefore, they can do whatever they want and define the standard for themselves and claim the Holy Spirit behind it and trust that I know what's good & evil, & I know how the Spirit's voice is, so I don't need the Bible, God's Word, or His perfect will & law to measure up against it (which according to your ideology, it's sinful, which is another contradictory and means since God owns something sinful, we shouldn't trust Him because He lied about being sinless, therefore the whole Bible is tainted and cannot be trusted).
Since the law says do not murder, do not steal, do not commit adultery, honor your parents, do not envy, do not have any other Gods before Him, and taking light breeze's argument that the law is sinful and we are free from it.

That means the command to not murder is evil, therefore I can still.
The command to obey my parents is evil, therefore I can disrespect them all I want.
That means that the command against envying, murdering, lying, and idolatry is evil, since the law is evil, and that is apart of the law, I can therefore not commit evil by not obeying the law, and I can steal, murder, lie, and worship whatever or whoever I want before God.

You can deny it, but that is what you're argument is saying...

And also to note, the same claims your getting your ideology from, comes from the same Word, Written Will of God you're trying to say is sinful. How can you use something from itself to prove itself is a fraud, unless it's contradictory.


If you truly believe this isn't the case, then only 2 things are possible. You're interpretation of Scripture is wrong, or my interpretation of what your interpretation of Scripture is wrong (which before you rush to pick option 2, explain how it's wrong and how that reconciles with Romans? You don't use Scripture to refute Scripture, all of it is God-breathed and coaligns with each other - 2 Timothy 3:16-17)

Opinion without any evidence behind it, doesn't even make any sense.

Galatians 5;4
"You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."
-----------
"you who attempt to be justified by law" . What does it mean ? This means that a person believes that, guided by the letter of the law, he is doing the right thing. In his opinion this is the will of God. But what is written in this verse? It is written that such a person has estranged himself from Christ, that he has fallen from grace. He has something to boast about, but not before God, as Romans 4:2 says. To whom do you seek to boast?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Galatians 5;4
"You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."
-----------
This means that a person believes that, guided by the letter of the law, he is doing the right thing.

Hi light breeze.
It means he thinks he's better than others. That's all Paul meant. He's saying the one who thinks he doesn't need forgivness doesn't know God... for all have sinned.

Paul isn't saying no sinner can be sorry and ask God for mercy.

On a personal note, I've enjoyed responding to you a few times in different threads without reply, if you happened to read them. Sometimes silence is golden.

 

[Rookie]

Galatians 5;4
"You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."
-----------
"you who attempt to be justified by law" . What does it mean ? This means that a person believes that, guided by the letter of the law, he is doing the right thing. In his opinion this is the will of God. But what is written in this verse? It is written that such a person has estranged himself from Christ, that he has fallen from grace. He has something to boast about, but not before God, as Romans 4:2 says. To whom do you seek to boast?

Did you read my post? If so, why are you repeating the theory I already dissected and proven fallacious? If I'm wrong, or any of these Bible scholars here are wrong, dissect our argument piece by piece, and show us our error. I already proved that your theory is made on taking verses out of context and twisting the meaning of them.

But you won't have to with me, because I despise tasteless bickering, so I will bow out.

May you go with God, and God go with you.

So long light breeze.

 

[eddif]

2 Timothy 3:14 kjv
14. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15. And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

It helps to read the whole passage.

It really is tough to stick with the hidden things of the OT. Creation through till John the Baptist.

Unto salvation. Not righteousness on the external ordinances, but the understanding of the shadows of things to come.

The picture of the moving shadow of a bird does not carry all the information. But it does cause you to look up to see what caused the shadow. Jesus is the reality, the light, the truth that helps identify Jesus.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[light breeze]

Hi light breeze.
It means he thinks he's better than others. That's all Paul meant. He's saying the one who thinks he doesn't need forgivness doesn't know God... for all have sinned.

If it meant only that, then Paul would not have written anything about the fact that he who keeps the law of the commandments has no praise before him. Don't lie to yourself. If a wife wants to please her husband, she does what pleases him. She won't cook a dish he doesn't like. He also won’t give flowers that she doesn’t like.
Galatius 3;5

Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?--

Show me at least one person who would receive the Holy Spirit through fulfilling the law of commandments.
Just as the light of the moon can only be seen at night, so it is with the commandments of the law. Whoever wants to watch them will himself be plunged into darkness. Those who walk in the light of love and mercy have no need of the letter of the law. Why do you still need a law? Are you not in the light of love?

Paul isn't saying no sinner can be sorry and ask God for mercy.

Yes. And all who are under the law are still under the dominion of sin

Romans 6;14
For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Peter 2nd 3;18
You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;
but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

 

[light breeze]

Did you read my post? If so, why are you repeating the theory I already dissected and proven fallacious?

You have only proven that you argue with verses from the epistles and the Gospel.
I showed you a verse from Corinthians 15:56

the strength of sin is the law.

You are arguing and trying to prove that these words mean something completely different from what the meaning of these words says. How can this be taken seriously?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

If it meant only that, then Paul would not have written anything about the fact that he who keeps the law of the commandments has no praise before him.

That's what I just said light breeze. You said he who keeps the law has no praise from God. I said, the one who thinks he doesn't need forgivness doesn't know God... for all have sinned. Hello?

Don't lie to yourself.

I don't lie to myself. People who think Jesus was cursed by his Father are the liars. The scribes, the so called masters of the law said Jesus was cursed by his Father. That's what Calvanists believe, but the truth is,

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed 1Cor.12:3

All Calvanist false doctrine is built on believing a lie.

If a wife wants to please her husband, she does what pleases him. She won't cook a dish he doesn't like. He also won’t give flowers that she doesn’t like.
Galatius 3;5

I agree, which is why Gal3:5 means our Husband is pleased when we relaize the law condemns all sinners and we repent.

Show me at least one person who would receive the Holy Spirit through fulfilling the law of commandments.

I'm not saying that, because of Gods' purpose for the law was never to show how good we are. It's to show how evil we are.The law was meant to show wrongdoing as specifically sin against God.

I have to run out. I want to continue this later. Please just consider this.

You believe God needed to slay his Son to "pay" for our sins. The truth is, wicked sinners slew our Savior without immediately facing justice, but will face judgment later if they don't repent.
You understand sinning against Jesus is sinning against God himself, agreed? Finish later...

Just as the light of the moon can only be seen at night, so it is with the commandments of the law. Whoever wants to watch them will himself be plunged into darkness. Those who walk in the light of love and mercy have no need of the letter of the law. Why do you still need a law? Are you not in the light of love?

Yes. And all who are under the law are still under the dominion of sin

Peter 2nd 3;18
You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;
but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

 

[Rookie]

You have only proven that you argue with verses from the epistles and the Gospel.
I showed you a verse from Corinthians 15:56

I already proven your understanding of Scripture to be wrong with Romans 7. I would recommend humbling and actually evaluating (2 Corinthians 13:5-7). You did not disprove me with Scripture you've simply committed eisigesis.

You are arguing and trying to prove that these words mean something completely different from what the meaning of these words says. How can this be taken seriously?

Or what you think and want it to say vs what taking the full context of the entire chapter of Corinthians 15, and not living to prove your truth but THE Truth. Many theologians can agree with me.

 

[eddif]

1 Timothy 1:8 kjv
8. But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9. Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10. For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11. According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

I knew this was a needed subject to discuss. I know it is a subject that we all think we know the answer.

The passage above is IMHO correct.

We just need the rules that go with using the law.

I am open to see if we can get a peaceful list of laws. Not carved in stone laws we throw at each other, but laws written in our new heart of flesh.

Be nice folks.

Mississippi redneck
eddif