Understanding The Law Of Moses - With The Help Of The Prophets And The Apostles

[light breeze]

There is no point in continuing to converse, your understanding of 1 Corinthians 15:56 is out of context, read the whole chapter to understand.

Even looking at the original language it refutes what you think that verse means.

Here's a helpful commentary on that:

"The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin (that is, what makes sin sting at death) is the law of God, which dooms the dying sinner to eternal punishment."
https://heinonline.org/hol-cgi-bin/get_pdf.cgi handle=hein.journals/dlr33&section=24#:~:text=an%20 interpolation%2 C%20thus%3A-,%22The%20sting%20of%20death%20is%20sin%2C%20and%20the%20strength%20of,dying%20sinner%20to%20eternal%20punishment.%22

That doesn't mean the law is sinful, it means it's existence dooms the unrepentant sinner to death, but as Christ followers, we are immune to that condemnation because of the blood.

Repent of the heretical theology of trying to disrespect God's law.

The law has two requirements:
1) keep the commandments
2) die for violating the first requirement.
Jesus fulfilled the second requirement for us.Thus, Jesus did not break, but fulfilled the law, as stated in Matthew 5:17 If a person believes that we have a duty before the law to fulfill the first requirement, then he rejects grace, which consists in the fact that Christ fulfilled the second requirement in our place. If a person accepts grace and the atoning sacrifice in Jesus Christ, then according to the law the second requirement is fulfilled and the law no longer has any requirements for him.You cannot be in Christ if you are bound to the law by its first requirement. But if you are in Christ, it is because you have accepted His grace, which means that the second requirement has already been fulfilled and you are no longer bound by the first requirement.It’s up to you to choose, either you are bound by the first requirement, or you in Christ are free from the law, because the law no longer has requirements for you.
We do not remove the law by faith; we are freed from it through its fulfillment in Jesus Christ.

 

[light breeze]

But we still are required to do good deeds and to obey God.
This is not the same as following the Law

I agree. But
Abraham laid Isaac on the altar. Is this good?

 

[Rookie]

The law has two requirements:
1) keep the commandments
2) die for violating the first requirement.
Jesus fulfilled the second requirement for us.Thus, Jesus did not break, but fulfilled the law, as stated in Matthew 5:17 If a person believes that we have a duty before the law to fulfill the first requirement, then he rejects grace, which consists in the fact that Christ fulfilled the second requirement in our place. If a person accepts grace and the atoning sacrifice in Jesus Christ, then according to the law the second requirement is fulfilled and the law no longer has any requirements for him.You cannot be in Christ if you are bound to the law by its first requirement. But if you are in Christ, it is because you have accepted His grace, which means that the second requirement has already been fulfilled

EXACTLY!

However you cannot find any Biblical basis that now Christians are free to do whatever they want without any direction, and morality, any standard, or any commands. Jesus in Matthew 14 did say if you love me you will keep my commandments. How can we keep His commandments, when according to you, there are no commandments to keep?

What's to guide us on our Christian life? The law comes directly from the Bible, and since according to you, the law is nullified, than does that mean that the Bible is nullified? The same verses your cherry picking to support heresy is coming from the same Bible that you're saying Jesus nullified. And then, since we have no Holiness to live by, who are you or me to tell each other who's wrong or right?

We're just like atheists, except we believe about a God, but like atheists have no law to abide by.

 

[eddif]

EXACTLY!

However you cannot find any Biblical basis that now Christians are free to do whatever they want without any direction, and morality, any standard, or any commands. Jesus in Matthew 14 did say if you love me you will keep my commandments. How can we keep His commandments, when according to you, there are no commandments to keep?

What's to guide us on our Christian life? The law comes directly from the Bible, and since according to you, the law is nullified, than does that mean that the Bible is nullified? The same verses your cherry picking to support heresy is coming from the same Bible that you're saying Jesus nullified. And then, since we have no Holiness to live by, who are you or me to tell each other who's wrong or right?

We're just like atheists, except we believe about a God, but like atheists have no law to abide by.

Let me try.
Ephesians 2:15 kjv
15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

At a point in time only the Jews had the oracles of God.
At a point in time the gentiles had no knowledge of God.

Commandments contained in ordinances.
Something inside of something else.

(Thou shall not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the corn.)
Outside in the law: let working ox eat
That is the ordinance on outside.

Inside is the commandments for today: pay a good preacher if you have the money.

The gentile gets a commandment without having th law of Moses.

The Jew loses an ordinance in the Law of Moses, but gains a commandment for today through new understanding.

Both Jew and gentile have the central core truth of the law written on their hearts and minds. This happens when:
Repentance
Salvation in Christ
Baptism in Holy Spirit
Are complete.

The gentile Your (atheist),and The Jew becomes (Christians)

Both have law in new Heart of Flesh
And new mind of Christ.

Best I can do, and it may not be good enough.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[journeymanisnothing]

The law has two requirements:
1) keep the commandments
2) die for violating the first requirement.

The law was and always has been for repentance and allows for it.

Jesus fulfilled the second requirement for us.

For us in the sense of if he had not endured sinnsers breaking the law by abusing and lying about him, sinners would have been executed.

Thus, Jesus did not break, but fulfilled the law, as stated in Matthew 5:17

Yes and therefore our Lord was showing mankinds injustice toward him. Sin against our Father and his Son

If a person believes that we have a duty before the law to fulfill the first requirement, then he rejects grace, which consists in the fact that Christ fulfilled the second requirement in our place.

No he didn't . Grace is how Christ didn't call on the law and accuse those who conspired to put an innocent man to death and bore false witness against him. Both of those sins are punishable by death under the law. Our dear Savior kept silent (Isa.53:7, Act.8:32

light breeze:
If a person accepts grace and the atoning sacrifice in Jesus Christ, then according to the law the second requirement is fulfilled and the law no longer has any requirements for him.

No this isn't what Gods' grace says. Gods' grace says sinners beat my Son without mercy and he decided not to wipe them out. God tells us the Son is exactly as his Father.

light breeze:
You cannot be in Christ if you are bound to the law by its first requirement.

No. If anyone hasn't repented of sin he is bound by the commandments,

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Deu.24:16

light breeze:
But if you are in Christ, it is because you have accepted His grace, which means that the second requirement has already been fulfilled and you are no longer bound by the first requirement.It’s up to you to choose, either you are bound by the first requirement, or you in Christ are free from the law, because the law no longer has requirements for you.
We do not remove the law by faith; we are freed from it through its fulfillment in Jesus Christ.

Exactly the opposite. Killing Jesus violated the law in many ways, horrible sins, punishable only by the deaths of the guilty, unless pardoned by Jesus,

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Rom.3:19
[/QUOTE]

 

[journeymanisnothing]

it is not a requirement , but a thirst

Like Paul said,

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Phil.3:10

Paul wanted to know how it felt to love even people who mistreated others in nightmares are made of. Because that's what the Lamb did. And Paul got his desire,

I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. Act.9:16

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree. But
Abraham laid Isaac on the altar. Is this good?

Abraham obeyed God.
Is that good?

 

[eddif]

The law was and always has been for repentance and allows for it.

We probably need a round table discussion about Repentance.

wondering I think this will ultimately need to be another thread, but for now a few comments to try and deal with the Old Testament concept (under the law).”
The New Testament takes Repentance to a higher level (there goes them thar levels again).

What am I implying?

This link may help if it does not hinder. Double talk? Possibly.


Repentance in the bible

I could not post the link so it has to be your job to search and find. Words in old and New Testament about repentance.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[GodsGrace]

We probably need a round table discussion about Repentance.

wondering I think this will ultimately need to be another thread, but for now a few comments to try and deal with the Old Testament concept (under the law).”
The New Testament takes Repentance to a higher level (there goes them thar levels again).

What am I implying?

This link may help if it does not hinder. Double talk? Possibly.

https://www.wordsoffaithhopelove

Repentance in the bible

I could not post the link so it has to be your job to search and find. Words in old and New Testament about repentance.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Actually I don't have to look up repentance or the idea of a higher level.
I think I know a bit about both.

These days people use the word REPENTENCE to mean - being sorry for something.

Actually, it means to change direction.
A person repents of something and they decide to go the other way.
A sinner that repents means that he has considered his sinful life and decides to walk in the other direction,
in the direction of God.

As to the higher level, I think you might be referring to
Matthew 5:20 Jesus is saying that the commandments are not to be annulled.
20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

In verse 17 Jesus states that He did not come to Abolish the Law but to fulfill it.
Whatever we want to believe that fulfill means...Jesus DID SAY that He did not come to ABOLISH it.

Then He went on to say that we must do what the Pharisees say and not what they do.

Then in verse 20 Jesus says our RIGHTEOUSNESS must surpass that of the pharisees or we will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
This is because the Pharisees were following The Law but did not have love or faith in God.
We MUST HAVE love for God and faith in God.

This is how we surpass the Pharisees.
Love and Faith.

 

[eddif]

Abraham obeyed God.
Is that good?

This is too good a chance to pass up.

Genesis 15:6 kjv
6. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Galatians 2:16 kjv
16. Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

2 Peter 1:5. kjv
5. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

( I know moral excellence lol)
6.

Actually I don't have to look up repentance or the idea of a higher level.
I think I know a bit about both.

These days people use the word REPENTENCE to mean - being sorry for something.

Actually, it means to change direction.
A person repents of something and they decide to go the other way.
A sinner that repents means that he has considered his sinful life and decides to walk in the other direction,
in the direction of God.

As to the higher level, I think you might be referring to
Matthew 5:20 Jesus is saying that the commandments are not to be annulled.
20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

In verse 17 Jesus states that He did not come to Abolish the Law but to fulfill it.
Whatever we want to believe that fulfill means...Jesus DID SAY that He did not come to ABOLISH it.

Then He went on to say that we must do what the Pharisees say and not what they do.

Then in verse 20 Jesus says our RIGHTEOUSNESS must surpass that of the pharisees or we will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
This is because the Pharisees were following The Law but did not have love or faith in God.
We MUST HAVE love for God and faith in God.

This is how we surpass the Pharisees.
Love and Faith.

No fair leaping to mainly just to the New
Testament.

No fair leaping to the head of the table and dominating the Round table conversation. LOL

2 Chronicles 7:14 kjv
14. If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
15. Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attent unto the prayer that is made in this place.
16. For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.
17. And as for thee, if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, and do according to all that I have commanded thee, and shalt observe my statutes and my judgments;
18. Then will I stablish the throne of thy kingdom, according as I have covenanted with David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man to be ruler in Israel.
19. But if ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them;
20. Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it to be a proverb and a byword among all nations.

From the other side of the table (does a round table have a side?), may I comment?

To little redneck the above scripture is an OT classic. Jesus has not come yet, it is under the law, and compares to the wilderness wandering very well.

If the people sinned they could change directions and get their life / land back. The Jerusalem made by man.

There is no conversation about eternal life. The messiah is not mentioned. This IMHO is Old Testament repentance(?). Round and round the mountain without a real solution.

There was a promised land ahead though. Which we may discuss.


John the Baptist had a realization of sins a baptism and believe in the one who comes after me (Jesus). Much better deal but limited repentance.

I hope maybe others might Join in.

Mississippi total redneck
eddif

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I agree. But
Abraham laid Isaac on the altar. Is this good?

Yes, because before that God said,
in Isaac shall thy seed be called. Gen.21:12

So Abraham believed God would raise Isaac from the dead. Heb.11:17-19

 

[journeymanisnothing]

We probably need a round table discussion about Repentance.

wondering I think this will ultimately need to be another thread, but for now a few comments to try and deal with the Old Testament concept (under the law).”
The New Testament takes Repentance to a higher level (there goes them thar levels again).

What am I implying?

This link may help if it does not hinder. Double talk? Possibly.

Repentance in the bible

I could not post the link so it has to be your job to search and find. Words in old and New Testament about repentance.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Repentance is turning from our sinful way of living and following Christ.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. 2Cor.7:10

 

[eddif]

Repentance is turning from our sinful way of living and following Christ.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. 2Cor.7:10

Can you go to the Old Testament?

 

[eddif]

Galatians 3:23 kjv
23. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Galatians 4:4 kjv
4. But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5. To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Old Covenant Jews needed Jesus to come under the law.

Starting with John the Baptist the kingdom was taught. Not arrived yet but taught.

IMHO on the day of Pentecost, the kingdom started arriving. The last trump is the full arrival. That is the Jews

For the gentiles their kingdom days started with Peter preaching in the house of Cornelius.

Not too involved.

I know I used NT scriptures, but they related to previous times.

Turning from is related to Repentance.
But
There is no lasting OT
solution for sin till Jesus died on the cross.

There is one name under heaven for salvation.

Might be another name / title for Repentance.

Might be another name / title for power to witness.

Repentance seems to take a massive change starting with John the Baptist.

Then what could a redneck know
eddif

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Can you go to the Old Testament?

You already did in 2Chr.7:14. Are you saying since the Messiah has come, sinners don't have to humble themselves, pray and seek God? Jesus taught repentance.

 

[eddif]

You already did in 2Chr.7:14. Are you saying since the Messiah has come, sinners don't have to humble themselves, pray and seek God? Jesus taught repentance.

No John the Baptist presented confession of sin and the need for Jesus.

What I am looking for is how others see Repentance in tne Old and New Testament.

I might have good enough scriptures but you might see something better.

The thread is not just about what eddif thinks. Oh I have thoughts, but others may have input I never considered. On the evidence of two or three witness shall a thing be established. Those witnesses can be people, biology, OT, NT, word of knowledge, etc.

Your sons and daughters shall prophecy.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[GodsGrace]

This is too good a chance to pass up.

Genesis 15:6 kjv
6. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Galatians 2:16 kjv
16. Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

2 Peter 1:5. kjv
5. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

( I know moral excellence lol)
6.

No fair leaping to mainly just to the New
Testament.

No fair leaping to the head of the table and dominating the Round table conversation. LOL

2 Chronicles 7:14 kjv
14. If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
15. Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attent unto the prayer that is made in this place.
16. For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.
17. And as for thee, if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, and do according to all that I have commanded thee, and shalt observe my statutes and my judgments;
18. Then will I stablish the throne of thy kingdom, according as I have covenanted with David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man to be ruler in Israel.
19. But if ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them;
20. Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it to be a proverb and a byword among all nations.

From the other side of the table (does a round table have a side?), may I comment?

To little redneck the above scripture is an OT classic. Jesus has not come yet, it is under the law, and compares to the wilderness wandering very well.

If the people sinned they could change directions and get their life / land back. The Jerusalem made by man.

There is no conversation about eternal life. The messiah is not mentioned. This IMHO is Old Testament repentance(?). Round and round the mountain without a real solution.

There was a promised land ahead though. Which we may discuss.


John the Baptist had a realization of sins a baptism and believe in the one who comes after me (Jesus). Much better deal but limited repentance.

I hope maybe others might Join in.

Mississippi total redneck
eddif

I like the NT.
It's the full revelation of God.
Spoken to us by Jesus.
Proven by the words of the Apostles.
And by the resurrection of our Lord.

It's clear and simple to understand.
Difficult to misunderstand what Jesus taught.

For instance, in the OT the concept of hell was not clear.
Some believed it and some did not.
The devil was portrayed by a snake in the Garden because it was considered to be evil.
Some did not believe in the Devil as a being.

Jesus made everything clear.

 

[eddif]

I like the NT.
It's the full revelation of God.
Spoken to us by Jesus.
Proven by the words of the Apostles.
And by the resurrection of our Lord.

It's clear and simple to understand.
Difficult to misunderstand what Jesus taught.

For instance, in the OT the concept of hell was not clear.
Some believed it and some did not.
The devil was portrayed by a snake in the Garden because it was considered to be evil.
Some did not believe in the Devil as a being.

Jesus made everything clear.

One of the reasons (probably the main reason I do parables and Old Testament stuff is for the Jewish people who have so much information and have no idea that there is an underlying hidden truth.

If you want to actually show appreciation to a Jewish person you have to jump through all this convoluted stuff. If you can get a handle on seeing they see not and hearing they hear not; you have this apprection for the truth we miss in creation and Jewish history, If we only heard about sowing a seed in good ground, I highly doubt we would understand salvation. And, those Jews that finally understood the deeper meaning shared that knowledge with the rest of the world. They put the candle as high as they could.

So I understand I could just shut up and not struggle with all this, but it seems I can not.


Just about as long as understanding the law of Moses is, the understanding of Repentance is complex. All I have now is just a small. amount. Till I share I will not get more.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

I like the NT.
It's the full revelation of God.
Spoken to us by Jesus.

Let’s go with this:

Let us make man in our image. This is the Father, the Word ( later to become Jesus, and the Spirir the Holy later revealed as breathing operating life.

An immune system before sin. Kidneys before sin(?), lungs before breathing,

Angels before nerves (? Messengers). Without the OT some of the facts would be missing.

eddif

 

[Rookie]

Let’s go with this:

Let us make man in our image. This is the Father, the Word ( later to become Jesus, and the Spirir the Holy later revealed as breathing operating life.

An immune system before sin. Kidneys before sin(?), lungs before breathing,

Angels before nerves (? Messengers). Without the OT some of the facts would be missing.

eddif

The Old Testament is like the first half of the movie, the New Testament is the last half. Can't have on half without the other.