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Unique, Not Only-Begotten

I addressed this in post #324

"John 6 says Jesus didn't have a literal pre-existence. Jesus compared himself to the manna that came down from heaven. The manna that came down from heaven isn't God. God sent the manna and God sent Jesus. It isn't as though the manna was sitting up in the sky since eternity waiting to be delivered to the Israelites then for the comparison to be accurate then neither was Jesus."
So you believe He is a glorified Man. A Unitarian outlook.

Yes, Jesus did teach "He" was the living bread that came down from heaven. And stated in that regard,“Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

Many Disciples Desert Jesus

60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

Isn't this clear?

Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!

How about John the Baptists testimony about Jesus?
The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32 He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony.
 
"MY GOD", with the Greek article, " Θεός μου", is clear that it cannot be "god", or "a god". IF you think that this does not mean that Thomas said to Jesus, "YOU ARE GOD", then you are very much deceived! It is your "theology" that is blinding you to the TRUTH in the Bible!

Interestingly, the JW’s also produced the Emphatic Diaglott, by Benjamin Wilson. In the 1864 edition, John 1:1 in the right-hand text reads, “and the Logos was God”. Of this reading they say, “The column on the right hand side of the page is a New Version for general reading. This rendering is based upon that in the left hand Column, and the labors of many talented Critics and Translators of the Scriptures” (Preface, Plan of the Work). They reproduced this work in 1942, with the same reading. So, in the one publication they argue for “a god”, while in another they adopt the correct reading, “God”!

Even the New Testament by George Noyes, who was a UNITARIAN, reads "my Lord and my God!". And, in 1:1, he has, "and the Word was God". And verse 18, "the only begotten God". Even though has "theology" did not allow him to believe that Jesus Christ is GOD, yet, in these places he is honest enough to give what is actually written by John! In Hebrews 1:8, Noyes reads, "but of the Son: Thy throne O God...". Here the Father is Addressing Jesus Christ!

In Isaiah 9:6, the New World Translation by the JW's, reads for Jesus Christ, "Mighty God". the same is for the Father in 10:21!
I have shown this to be wrong, and yet you keep on pushing this LIES!
You have not shown the Bible to be a lie. John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6 all say the only God is the Father. Rather than accept this, you actually reject it it seems.

Do you believe the Father is the only true God?
 
"MY GOD", with the Greek article, " Θεός μου", is clear that it cannot be "god", or "a god". IF you think that this does not mean that Thomas said to Jesus, "YOU ARE GOD", then you are very much deceived! It is your "theology" that is blinding you to the TRUTH in the Bible!

Interestingly, the JW’s also produced the Emphatic Diaglott, by Benjamin Wilson. In the 1864 edition, John 1:1 in the right-hand text reads, “and the Logos was God”. Of this reading they say, “The column on the right hand side of the page is a New Version for general reading. This rendering is based upon that in the left hand Column, and the labors of many talented Critics and Translators of the Scriptures” (Preface, Plan of the Work). They reproduced this work in 1942, with the same reading. So, in the one publication they argue for “a god”, while in another they adopt the correct reading, “God”!

Even the New Testament by George Noyes, who was a UNITARIAN, reads "my Lord and my God!". And, in 1:1, he has, "and the Word was God". And verse 18, "the only begotten God". Even though has "theology" did not allow him to believe that Jesus Christ is GOD, yet, in these places he is honest enough to give what is actually written by John! In Hebrews 1:8, Noyes reads, "but of the Son: Thy throne O God...". Here the Father is Addressing Jesus Christ!

In Isaiah 9:6, the New World Translation by the JW's, reads for Jesus Christ, "Mighty God". the same is for the Father in 10:21!
SS
You're trying to have a serious discussion with someone that is rather unorthodox to say the least.
I applaud you -
 
So you believe He is a glorified Man. A Unitarian outlook.

Yes, Jesus did teach "He" was the living bread that came down from heaven. And stated in that regard,“Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

Many Disciples Desert Jesus

60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

Isn't this clear?

Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!

How about John the Baptists testimony about Jesus?
The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32 He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony.
Like the disciples who didn't understand Jesus and deserted him, you are also misunderstanding him. The remaining disciples went on to say Jesus is the Holy One of God, not that Jesus is God.

John 6
67So Jesus asked the Twelve, “Do you want to leave too?”
68Simon Peter replied, “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that You are the Holy One of God.
 
You have not shown the Bible to be a lie. John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6 all say the only God is the Father. Rather than accept this, you actually reject it it seems.

Do you believe the Father is the only true God?

NO, the Bible is VERY CLEAR that Jesus Christ is GOD.

Are you a Jehovah's Witness or Unitarian?
 
You have not shown the Bible to be a lie. John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6 all say the only God is the Father. Rather than accept this, you actually reject it it seems.

Do you believe the Father is the only true God?
There is only ONE FATHER.
There is only ONE SON.
There is only ONE HOLY SPIRIT.

But they are all GOD.

Because you don't understand the trinity, does not mean it isn't right.
One must believe the trinity to be considered a Christian.
 
You have not shown the Bible to be a lie. John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6 all say the only God is the Father. Rather than accept this, you actually reject it it seems.

Do you believe the Father is the only true God?

read this, and now try to prove it wrong!

 
Scripture does not show Jesus is God. Begin with John 17:3 that explicitly identifies the Father as the Only True God. That means there are no other Gods aside from the Father. I have the entire Bible on my side, with dozens of explicit verses that plainly say what I believe.

Also, your claim that I am not a Christ because I don't believe Jesus is God is false. I think if you try to find a passage to support your conclusion, you will not find it.
Notice that the word CHRISTIAN has Christ in it.
It means one that believes in Christ.
But the Christ the bible teaches - not your Christ.

John 17:3 Jesus is the sent one of God. Just as is also stated in John 13:20
1Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
2even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
3“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
4“I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.
5“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Let's take a look at the above verses.

Verse:
1. Father. God is Jesus' Father, which is what Jesus called the Godhead while He was on earth.
He asks God Father to glorify His Son.
Is God's Son, God?
If God has a Son, is he God, or is He a human?
When you have a son, what is he?

2. Jesus can give eternal life.
Can a man give eternal life?

3. God Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD. I hope you know that there were many gods that were being worshipped at the time of Jesus. God Father, the Almighty, is the one true God.
And the one true God sent Jesus....
You never answered the question about the prophesies Jesus fulfilled.

4. The work as to save mankind. Do you at least believe this?
If so, how does a mere man save mankind?
Could YOU have saved mankind?
Doesn't the OT state that GOD HIMSELF will save us and give us a new heart? Ezekiel.

5. Jesus is stating that He had the glory the Father has BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.
Before anything existed, Jesus was. He is the great I AM.

John 8:58
...“You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born,
I am.”
Exodus 3:14
Tell them, 'I Am Who I Am.' When you go to the Israelites, tell them, 'I Am' sent me to you.”
 
G3056 logos
Strong's Concordance
logos: a word (as embodying an idea), a statement, a speech
Original Word: λόγος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: logos
Phonetic Spelling: (log'-os)
Definition: a word (as embodying an idea), a statement, a speech
Usage: a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy.


God did. Please see Acts 4 where the Sovereign Lord they prayed to is God and when Jesus was mentioned he was referred to as God's holy servant. Very clear.
Do you know any of the creeds?
What the Apostles believed that Jesus taught them?

To start, LOGOS does not mean word.
It means the will of God, the reason of God.
Yes, even an idea that God has.

God speaks to us through the logos.
And WHO is the logos?


John 1:1
IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD (LOGOS)
AND THE WORD (LOGOS) WAS WITH GOD
AND THE WORD (LOGOS) WAS GOD.

So the logos, or word, was God.

Do you not believe John?

Logos:

What is the Logos?​

Logos is broadly defined as the Word of God, or principle of divine reason and creative order, identified in the Gospel of John with the second person of the Trinity incarnate in Jesus Christ.




"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1

The concept of the Logos has had a crucial and far-reaching influence upon philosophical and Christian thought. The term has a long history, and the development of the idea it embodies is really the unfolding of man's conception of God. To understand the relationship of the Deity to the world has been the goal of all religious philosophy. While diverging views as to the Divine manifestation have been conceived, the Greek word logos has been used with a certain degree of agreement by a series of thinkers to express and define the nature and form of God's revelation.


Logos means in classical Greek both "reason" and "word." The translation "thought" is probably the best equivalent for the Greek term, since it indicates, on the one hand, the faculty of reason, or the thought inwardly conceived in the mind; and, on the other hand, the thought outwardly expressed through the vehicle of language. The two ideas thought and speech, are indubitably blended in the term logos; and in every employment of the word, in philosophy and Scripture, both concepts of thought and its outward expression are closely connected.




Logos in the Bible​

According to gotquestions.org, In the New Testament, the Gospel of John begins, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was at the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men” (John 1:1-4). Here it is clear that the “Word” or Logos is a reference to Jesus Christ.

The Gospel of John 1:1-14 - The Word Became Flesh

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. There was a man sent from God whose name was John. He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth"


John argues that Jesus, the Word or Logos, is eternal and is God. Further, all creation came about by and through Jesus, who is presented as the source of life. Amazingly, this Logos came and lived among us: “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth” (John 1:14).

John’s Gospel begins by using the Greek idea of a “divine reason” or “the mind of God” as a way to connect with the readers of his day, who mostly spoke Greek, and introduce Jesus to them as God. Greek philosophy may have used the word in reference to divine reason, but John used it to note many of the attributes of Jesus. In John’s use of the Logos concept, we find that

-Jesus is eternal (“In the beginning was the Word”) Jesus was with God prior to coming to earth (“the Word was with God”)
source: https://www.christianity.com/wiki/c...in-the-bible-definition-and-significance.html
 
read this, and now try to prove it wrong!

No thanks. It seems you're only trying to attack and dismantle the clear scripture about the Father being the only true God according to John 17:3.
 
There is only ONE FATHER.
There is only ONE SON.
There is only ONE HOLY SPIRIT.

But they are all GOD.

Because you don't understand the trinity, does not mean it isn't right.
One must believe the trinity to be considered a Christian.

Jesus = Son of God
Father = God
Holy Spirit = God's Spirit (not another person)

I think it's very clear and scriptural that since Jesus is the Son of God then he isn't God. The Bible gives us the best possible words to describe the relation between himself and his Father. Jesus is God's offspring, therefore he isn't his own offspring. Logic and reason begins to break down quickly following that rabbit trail.
 
Like the disciples who didn't understand Jesus and deserted him, you are also misunderstanding him. The remaining disciples went on to say Jesus is the Holy One of God, not that Jesus is God.

John 6
67So Jesus asked the Twelve, “Do you want to leave too?”
68Simon Peter replied, “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that You are the Holy One of God.
Why did some disciples abandon Jesus?

I do want to say RM, that the Apostles didn't really understand who Jesus was until after the resurrection.
You surely remember that Jesus kept trying to make them understand that He must die, but they refused to believe, or more correctly, they couldn't believe.

Luke 9:18...
 
Jesus = Son of God
Father = God
Holy Spirit = God's Spirit (not another person)

I think it's very clear and scriptural that since Jesus is the Son of God then he isn't God. The Bible gives us the best possible words to describe the relation between himself and his Father. Jesus is God's offspring, therefore he isn't his own offspring. Logic and reason begins to break down quickly following that rabbit trail.
So if YOU have a baby,
he won't be human?
 
Do you know any of the creeds?
What the Apostles believed that Jesus taught them?

To start, LOGOS does not mean word.
It means the will of God, the reason of God.
Yes, even an idea that God has.

God speaks to us through the logos.
And WHO is the logos?


John 1:1
IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD (LOGOS)
AND THE WORD (LOGOS) WAS WITH GOD
AND THE WORD (LOGOS) WAS GOD.

So the logos, or word, was God.

Do you not believe John?

Logos:

What is the Logos?​

Logos is broadly defined as the Word of God, or principle of divine reason and creative order, identified in the Gospel of John with the second person of the Trinity incarnate in Jesus Christ.




"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1

The concept of the Logos has had a crucial and far-reaching influence upon philosophical and Christian thought. The term has a long history, and the development of the idea it embodies is really the unfolding of man's conception of God. To understand the relationship of the Deity to the world has been the goal of all religious philosophy. While diverging views as to the Divine manifestation have been conceived, the Greek word logos has been used with a certain degree of agreement by a series of thinkers to express and define the nature and form of God's revelation.


Logos means in classical Greek both "reason" and "word." The translation "thought" is probably the best equivalent for the Greek term, since it indicates, on the one hand, the faculty of reason, or the thought inwardly conceived in the mind; and, on the other hand, the thought outwardly expressed through the vehicle of language. The two ideas thought and speech, are indubitably blended in the term logos; and in every employment of the word, in philosophy and Scripture, both concepts of thought and its outward expression are closely connected.




Logos in the Bible​

According to gotquestions.org, In the New Testament, the Gospel of John begins, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was at the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men” (John 1:1-4). Here it is clear that the “Word” or Logos is a reference to Jesus Christ.

The Gospel of John 1:1-14 - The Word Became Flesh


John argues that Jesus, the Word or Logos, is eternal and is God. Further, all creation came about by and through Jesus, who is presented as the source of life. Amazingly, this Logos came and lived among us: “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth” (John 1:14).

John’s Gospel begins by using the Greek idea of a “divine reason” or “the mind of God” as a way to connect with the readers of his day, who mostly spoke Greek, and introduce Jesus to them as God. Greek philosophy may have used the word in reference to divine reason, but John used it to note many of the attributes of Jesus. In John’s use of the Logos concept, we find that

-Jesus is eternal (“In the beginning was the Word”) Jesus was with God prior to coming to earth (“the Word was with God”)
source: https://www.christianity.com/wiki/c...in-the-bible-definition-and-significance.html
I believe John, but since I know the Father is the only true God (John 17:3) then rather than see the logos as another person who is God I see the logos as not a person, but personified.

For example, how many times is the word clearly called an it or something entirely separate from Jesus?

1 John 1:1,2 calls the word (logos) of life an it.

Revelation 1:2 very clearly shows the word (logos) of God as something else seperate to Jesus.

2who testifies to everything he saw. This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
 
I agree with the above because of all the evidence I see in God's word .

But this is the part I don't agree with .
We don't get to decide.
To be Christian one must:

BELIEVE IN GOD
BELIEVE JESUS IS GOD (OR WE'RE WORSHIPPING A MAN)
BELIEVE HE DIED AND WAS RESURRECTED
BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY

If you don't believe in the above, what exactly makes you be Christian?
 
Why did some disciples abandon Jesus?

I do want to say RM, that the Apostles didn't really understand who Jesus was until after the resurrection.
You surely remember that Jesus kept trying to make them understand that He must die, but they refused to believe, or more correctly, they couldn't believe.

Luke 9:18...
Great, and who did the disciples say Jesus is?
 
I believe John, but since I know the Father is the only true God (John 17:3) then rather than see the logos as another person who is God I see the logos as not a person, but personified.

Well, you're right!
Jesus is something or other personified.
This is what is known as the INCARNATION.
The incarnation means that God took on flesh.
Carne means meat/flesh.

God couldn't communicate with humans beyond a certain point,
so He sent His Son as a human so that He could reveal to us the one true God.

If God created the entire universe, He could surely figure out a way to send HIMSELF to earth.
I think that we have to accept that it's not possible for us to understand God, a spirit being,
but maybe we should accept what the NT states, both before Jesus was resurrected and certainly AFTER
He was resurrected and the Apostles understood better what had happened.

To the point that they all went to horrifying deaths.
Would they do this for a human?

Thomas didn't say OMG, etc....
He said MY LORD AND MY GOD.
He was calling Jesus HIS GOD.

For example, how many times is the word clearly called an it or something entirely separate from Jesus?

1 John 1:1,2 calls the word (logos) of life an it.

Revelation 1:2 very clearly shows the word (logos) of God as something else seperate to Jesus.

2who testifies to everything he saw. This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
I don't quite understand the above.
 
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