Think here. Is all God is just a word, speech, or divine utterance? Just a disembodied voice? The logos is an it. It's just personified.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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Unique, Not Only-Begotten
- Thread starter SolaScriptura
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If you are game to watch the hypostatic union be debunked, I am also experienced in doing that. Your call my friend.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
How could you believe the verses but not the interpretation?
I simply listed the veses.....
Could you take each one and explain how YOU "interpret" it.
And, again, it's not up to us to INTERPRET anything....
this has already been done - we just have to accept it or not.
Could we just stick to those verses without playing verse volley?
How do YOU interpret them?
Please don't just list different verses.
Thanks.
You are right, God wouldn't and didn't do that.
He created through God the Son, the Word of God, who is God:
NKJ John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (Jn. 1:1-3 NKJ)
The Father created all things through His Firstborn Heir of all creation, for whom all things were made:
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col. 1:15-17 NKJ)
And verse 17 confirms the Son cannot be a creature, all created things consist (are held together) in Him.
Our matrix is held together in Him like electromagnetism holds together atoms:
John 1:1-14 is a narrative about the how God manifested a human from His word (a word, speech, or divine utterance.) The word is personified, but a word isn't an actual person. John 1:10 states that He was in the world but the world did not know him. This isn't about Jesus since the New Testament teaches that Jesus came down from heaven. The one in the world was the Father as the OT states. God, the True Light, gives light to people entering the world. When Jesus entered the world God gave light to him.
1 Timothy 3:14 doesn't mean God manifested as a human. It means that he manifested a human. A human God creates to many sin issues like idolatry. That isn't something God would do because God does not tempt anyone to sin according to James 1:13.
Isaiah 7:14 is about a human. The next verse says Immanuel needed time to reject evil and choose good. That isn't a characteristic of God.
God is with us means just that, but it doesn't mean Jesus is the actual God with us. Immanuel is just a name with that definition. God was with Jesus and in effect also with those with whom Jesus was with in the way Acts 10:38 says:
38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how Jesus went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with Him.
At Jesus' water baptism there were not three present. I think you are projecting that assumption into the Bible because you still think there is a Trinity Godhead. What happened at the water baptism was God anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit and this enabled God to use him for healings.
The Word cannot be a "personification", the context says the Word became flesh and John bore witness of HIM, and then the Word is identified as Jesus Christ through whom grace and truth came:
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said,`He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.'"
16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. (Jn. 1:14-17 NKJ)
Personifications aren't born a few months after John the Baptist, nor did we receive grace and truth through a personification, because such things are poetic fiction and not real human flesh like Jesus Christ.
As for 1 Timothy 3:16, text plainly states God was manifested in the flesh:
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. (1 Tim. 3:16-4:1 NKJ)
Jesus was "preached among the Gentiles and believed on in the world," not a personification or nameless human.
Christ's words "they shall all be taught by God" proves what Christ thought of Himself, as He taught them:
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves.
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 "It is written in the prophets,`And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. (Jn. 6:43-45 NKJ)
The prophets didn't prophesy a "personification" would rise from their brethren like Moses:
"The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, (Deut. 18:15 NKJ)
Its absurd to read " "The LORD your God will raise up for you a Personification like me from your midst...."
A Prophet like Moses cannot be a personification that exists in in poetic literature.
Nor do virgins conceive personifications, and a poetic personification wouldn't be a sign to anyone:
"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. (Isa. 7:14 NKJ)
Of course God was always with Jesus. Its absurd use of language to say God was with a "personification"!
Three were present at Jesus' Baptism, the Father speaks CALLING JESUS His Son, not a personification; the Holy Spirit is as a Dove rests upon Jesus, and this isn't a poetic story in a fairy tale, it actually happened to Jesus; John the Baptist couldn't baptize a personification in the Jordan River:
9 It came to pass in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
10 And immediately, coming up from the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove.
11 Then a voice came from heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." (Mk. 1:9-11 NKJ)
The Father wouldn't be pleased by a mere personification.
But a man running from scripture, its plain obvious meaning, could be a personification of a fool.
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The word can be personification because if "the word is God" is literal than all God would be is a word, speech, or divine utterance. We know from the wealth of scripture that God is much much more than that and so is Jesus who didn't even know the word until he learned it from God. In other words, the word of God, the Logos, wasn't something in his nature.
1 John 1:1,2 refers to the word as an it.
Revelation 20:4 clearly differentiates between the word of God and Jesus.
Proverbs 8 personifies wisdom, yet we do not think wisdom is another person do we?
Classic ad hominem. Way to represent Trinitarians.
No. John is precise, the Word verbalizes God's thought, makes it concrete reality. This is like your thoughts "gaining form" when you verbalize thought, all creation in the Mind of God became "real" as the Word "made it concrete reality" speaking it into existence:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. (Gen. 1:1-3 NKJ)
John alludes to this saying "in the beginning", he is pointing to "the Word" as the mouth of God:
The Word spoke (="God said") and all things came into existence, hence it is written:
All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (Jn. 1:3 NKJ)
By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And all the host of them by the breath of His mouth. (Ps. 33:6 NKJ)
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col. 1:16-17 NKJ)
He existed before anything else, and he holds all creation together. (Col. 1:17 NLT)
The Word created our Matrix, its "held together" by the power of His Infinite Mind, He gives "form" to everything. All things are held together in Him as Electromagnetism holds atoms together:
"for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said,`For we are also His offspring.' (Acts 17:28 NKJ)
Only a Person who is God The Word could do this. John describes what Christ does, He verbalizes God's thought so in Him all things "consist, come together" and become concrete reality. And God the Word "in the beginning" "said" and not one thing came into existence apart from Him speaking it into being.
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No, its about the Son not about the word Hebrews 1
Father into your hands I commit my Spirit.
It is stated He had a rational soul and a human body.
Mary conceived by the Spirit of God and Jesus is Gods Son not Joseph's .
Carry_Your_Name
Member
See, this just has proved that you don’t know God, since you deny Jesus, the only access to God.
Carry_Your_Name
Member
Thanks, but no. Also you never responded to the argument that the miracles Jesus performed testified of his deity.
No, the text clearly shows the Word was with God, and by nature is also God. Your absurd interpretation requires God alone is being discussed when its clear two entities are being discussed, God and the Word who is also God in nature:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (Jn. 1:1-3 NKJ)
AND your interpretation reverses whom John is talking about, the Word.
You have him talking about God and describing the nature of God, when John is talking about the Word and describing His nature as the same as God.
Nothing about your "personification" makes a bit of sense. Its nonsense.
It seems you don't know who Jesus is. I say Jesus is the Son of God and Messiah and enjoy quoting those scriptures. You don't have any "God the Son" scriptures. Looks like I am in the right.
Others performed the same miracles of Jesus and even more. For example, Jesus never spoke in tongues. How do you justify making Jesus God when others did more than him?
The word is with God because it refers to something that is without God, a characteristic of God, but not God Himself. The biggest clue that would help you here is that God isn't simply a word, speech, or a divine utterance, but that is something God has, i.e., the word is with God. The best translation for John 1:1 is that the word is godly, not that the word is actually literally God. Therefore it's personification.
If what you were saying is true, we should expect to find scripture stating what you're saying, but there isn't. The word (logos) is an it in 1 John 1:1,2. I hope that helps.
Carry_Your_Name
Member
You’re getting the wrong impression. To be crystal clear, the Trinity is real, I believe it, the only thing I don’t agree with the OP and other trinitarians is how the Trinity works. It’s not a triangle, not “three coequal persons”, but a linear relationship - the Spirit points to the Son, the Son leads to the Father.
God creates through words, but God isn't just a word. Does that make sense?
Okay I hear you. I think when people refer to the Trinity doctrine they are actually referring to the Athanasian Creed. Do you agree with what it says?
Carry_Your_Name
Member
Since when is speaking in foreign language a miracle? If that’s a miracle, then I’m performing that miracle right here, right now.