Unique, Not Only-Begotten

[Randy]

Power to perform all those supernatural miracles.

The Spirit of God clearly acted on Jesus's point of will as if He was the Father. The Fathers works He performed testify that the Father was in Him and they are one as Jesus stated if you don't believe what I say then believe by the Fathers works He performed in that oneness.

But I was asking about the Son who was before the world began.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

But I was asking about the Son who was before the world began.

Then yes and no. The Word was God at the beginning before the world began, but the Word didn't become flesh and dwell among us until it came to pass at God's appointed - or scheduled - time.

 

[7thMoon]

Nevertheless, both are capitalized in Jn. 20:28. If you don't accept it, that's just your unbelief.

But I believe and trust that the caps are interpretative.

 

[7thMoon]

How so? Please be specific.

Remember, Thomas literally said, “the Lord of me and the God of me.” God has the article, so it must be capitalized as it means the one true God.

Why the doubling of the 1st person pronoun? A single one would have be sufficient.

Obviously, 2 subjects are addressed.

 

[7thMoon]

That is merely your opinion.

No, it’s fact that I have and can substantiate with significant proof.

It is more difficult to prove then you think. Keep in mind that the textbooks could be wrong with authority, and are not consistent on the article, other than consistently wrong.

 

[7thMoon]

How much Greek do you know? I have shown BEYOND any doubt to the HONEST mind, that μονογενής, does not, and cannot mean "ONLY-BEGOTTEN"!

But, like a few others on here, you have NO interest what this actually means, but bang on about your nonsense THEORIES!!!

Do you know what monos means?

 

[7thMoon]

You don't believe this?
True God FROM True God
I know you refuse this
Begotten from the Father before all worlds.

My point in Hebrews is in regard to the creation.
About the Son
He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.

Doesn't negate this understanding from the very same writer who is contrasting Jesus's "Sonship" vs the Angels of God. A sonship that clearly is before the world was made and far superior to the angels of God.

n the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe

Wow, you really don't like chapter and verse.

 

[Randy]

Then yes and no. The Word was God at the beginning before the world began, but the Word didn't become flesh and dwell among us until it came to pass at God's appointed - or scheduled - time.

It is testified of Jesus that He is the one and same word of life. The eternal life with the Father from the beginning. As in "that life appeared" still the Jesus they saw and heard and touched. He is a living being.

The Incarnation of the Word of Life​

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes,which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our[a] joy complete.


He was a being, (the Son), before that incarnation

Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:

“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.

When they grumbled at His testimony that He is bread of life who came down from heaven and the need to eat His flesh and drink His blood for life

He stated to them, Does this offend you? 62Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit e and life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

 

[Randy]

Wow, you really don't like chapter and verse.

You don't know me how then do you know what I like and don't like?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

But I believe and trust that the caps are interpretative.

ANd I believe the scholars who translated the bible and used the caps there are smarter than both you and I.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus wasn't giving life to the world until he came down from heaven.

John 6
33For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

Jesus wasn't in the world until he came down. That means he isn't God.

John 1
9The true Light who gives light to every man was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him.

What was Jesus doing in heaven?
How long had He been there?

John 10:30
The Father and I are One.

Did the Father always exist?
then so did Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

WITH Whom, not THROUGH.

God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, JOINTLY Created the entire Universe!

I agree.
See post 708.

The Trinity works together.
It cannot be separated.
Though each Person has a function/work to accomplish,
it takes all 3 to be in unison.

Did you hear:
THROUGH HIM
WITH HIM
IN HIM
FROM HIM
BY HIM

Jesus is ALL

Romans 11:36
36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
1 Corinthians 1:30
30But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus,

Everything is WITH, THROUGH AND IN, etc.

I see no need to separate.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's too bad, but thank you for your honesty.

Always.

Omnipresence.

Omnipresence means that God is everywhere all at once and at any given moment.
It DOES NOT mean that He is in our world, although He does see our world.

Let me ask you something RM,
I you're a carpenter and make a cabinet....
are YOU in that cabinet?

Or is it separate from you?

John 4:24
24“God is spirit,
Do you really believe some human type created the universe?

And doesn't John 1:9 says the True Light gives light to men coming into the world?


The entire Old Testament testifies of God the Father being in the world and interacting with mankind.

No one has ever see God Father. Except Jesus.
John 6:46
46“Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.

The OT speaks of messengers, which are angesls.
Or it speaks of the Son coming to earth.

GOD FATHER IS NOT VISIBLE.
He is spirit.

Do you not believe the NT?

 

[7thMoon]

ANd I believe the scholars who translated the bible and used the caps there are smarter than both you and I.

You would be surprised how overrated they are then.

 

[Free]

Why the doubling of the 1st person pronoun? A single one would have be sufficient.

Obviously, 2 subjects are addressed.

Your conclusion doesn't follow. Thomas is addressing Jesus only. That he repeated the first person pronoun is for emphasis, not because he is addressing two subjects. There is only one subject, Jesus.

There is also more context that you are not taking into account, even though Thomas's statement does stand on its own. Look at what Thomas first says when 'the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord."'

Joh 20:24 Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came.
Joh 20:25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.” (ESV)

Notice Thomas's demands in verse 25:

1. Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails,
2. and place my finger into the mark of the nails,
3. and place my hand into his side,
4. I will never believe.

Then:

Joh 20:26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.”
Joh 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” (ESV)

Notice Jesus's response in verse 27:

1. Put your fingers here,
2. see my hands,
3. put out your hand, and place it in my side.
4. Do not disbelieve, but believe.

Jesus directly responds to each of Thomas's demands with commands to do exactly what Thomas stated. This shows the omniscience of Jesus, to which Thomas responds:

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God! (LITV)

Note that Thomas "said to Him;" that is what appears in the Greek. He was directly addressing Jesus. More than that though, is Jesus's response:

Joh 20:29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (ESV)

As I have stated already, Jesus doesn't rebuke Thomas. Instead, Jesus says, "Have you believed because you have seen me?". Believed what? First, that he has risen from the dead, and second, that he is God. It was Thomas's statement--"My Lord and my God"--that was the evidence that Thomas now believed, having come out of his previous unbelief. A lack of rebuke from Jesus for Thomas calling him his God, is proof that Jesus is God.

And, again, this fits perfectly with John 1:1. John beings his gospel by stating that the eternal Word is God, who then takes on human flesh, and ends his gospel with Thomas claiming that the incarnate Word, Jesus, was his God. That is a consistent message throughout John's gospel.

 

[Free]

It is more difficult to prove then you think. Keep in mind that the textbooks could be wrong with authority, and are not consistent on the article, other than consistently wrong.

No, it is not at all difficult to prove. I know you won't provide proof because I know that you cannot; it is impossible that you are correct about the article. That you claim textbooks are consistently wrong about the article says everything I need to know.

 

[Runningman]

Where, exactly, did Jesus say that Thomas isn’t blessed? I don’t see that in either the English or the Greek.

John 20:29

Nothing changes the fact that Thomas said directly to Jesus, “The Lord of me and the God of me” and Jesus accepted those words, which lines up with the totality of the biblical evidence about Jesus.

Jesus never said he is Thomas' God.

Salvation has everything to do with Jesus being God. If he is not God, we have no salvation.

That's a false gospel.

The Logos was a “person,” in intimate relationship with God, having existed for eternity past, through whom God created everything that he ever created.

The logos is personified.

That remains to be seen, but that is not the point in John 1:10, nor is it a point I made.

Care to address the points I made and the passages I used to support those points?

No, I just go for the premise. If the premise is flawed the house of cards falls.

 

[Runningman]

First of all, OP is pointing out some potential inaccurate translation that has caused misunderstandings and wrong doctrines. All scripture is inspired by God, but not every English translation. All English translations have errors and inaccuracies, including KJV and NKJV. So far not a single common English translation gets king Saul's age right in 1 Samuel 13:1. We're encouraged to scrutinize teachings and doctrines like the Bereans, not weaponzing it to attack others who don't disagree with you like what you've been doing.

Second, you don't know God as the father without the son. If you regard God as God the Father, then you've already accepted Jesus as God the Son, because he is the only way to God, and he and God are one. This is like the Herodians who questioned Jesus whether it was legal to pay taxes to Caesar, while the coin they had was the only acceptable currency at the time to pay taxes to Caesar.

So you agree with the OP that Jesus is not the Son of God?

 

[Runningman]

Well you certainty belief that but you are mistaken.

My beliefs are correct.

John's testimony was about Jesus. And those verses are one of several that note the world was made through Him.

No, the world was made through the logos which are spoken words. In Genesis, in the beginning, God spoke and created.

The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

This was shown to be God, not Jesus.

God the Father created all things by, through and for Jesus.

Just in context of the church as I already showed.

 

[Runningman]

What was Jesus doing in heaven?
How long had He been there?

He didn't literally pre-exist. His existence in heaven was in the foreknowledge of God. That's my view and due to lack of Biblical evidence to the contrary it can't be contested.

John 10:30
The Father and I are One.

Did the Father always exist?
then so did Jesus.

According to your thinking, since Jesus is one with God and the disciples are one with God then the disciples existed eternally. This is why we study and discuss so we can come to the knowledge of these things. This means you're misunderstanding what it means to be one with God.

John 17
21that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.