Unique, Not Only-Begotten

[Free]

I'm right. Thomas not only was not blessed according to what Jesus said since he didn't meet the criteria for being blessed. Thomas said he would never believe unless he saw Jesus. Jesus said those who don't see, yet believe, are blessed. John 20:25,29

No, you're going beyond what the text states. It's fallacious reasoning; I've dealt with this already.

Futhermore, Jesus never said he is Thomas' God.

He sure did. I've dealt with this already. This is why you need to start addressing everything I've posted.

What God revealed regarding who Jesus is is that he is the Son of God and the Messiah.

Peter was blessed his answer. Thomas was not blessed.

Matt 16
15“But what about you?” Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven.

And, yet, none of the precludes Jesus from also being God. Do you know of a son that is of a completely different nature than his father?

Contrary to being called good Jesus said only God is good. That's a denial. If Jesus is God, Jesus simply needed to say "I know I am good..." but he didn't affirm that in the slightest.

It could be a rhetorical question, with Jesus trying to get the man to realize what he said. But most likely, it is as Wuest states:

'(10:18) Swete says: "The emphasis is on the word "good," not on the pronoun. The Lord begins by compelling the enquirer to consider his own words. He had used the word 'good' lightly, in a manner which revealed the poverty of his moral conceptions. . . The man is summoned to contemplate the absolute goodness of God, and to measure himself by that supreme standard. Viewed in this light the words are seen not to touch the question of our Lord's human sinlessness or of His oneness with the Father; on the other hand they are consistent with the humility which led Him as Man to refrain from asserting His equality with God."' (Word Studies in the Greek New Testament, vol 1, p. 201)

You did no such thing.

I most certainly did. But, again, it was a rebuttal that you ignored.

You first stated: "Please quote the words God the Son anywhere in the Bible."

I replied: "I didn't say they appear anywhere in the Bible; and they don't need to"

You then replied: "Yes they need to appear in the Bible. Don't try to pass it off as scripture then; it's not."

To which I responded: "No, they don’t. I showed how your argument is not sound." Which led to your response here.

You have stated that God is "unitarian" many times, yet, I asked you to show me where "unitarian" appears in the Bible. I know you won't because you can't; it's not in the Bible. Hence, it shows the fallacy of your argument that if I can't show "God the Son" (or "Trinity," if you were to ask) in the Bible, then the idea isn't biblical. Using your reasoning, since "unitarian" isn't in the Bible, it's not a biblical concept either.

It's a bad argument based on poor reasoning that you (and almost every anti-Trinitarian) should stop making.

John 17:3, Ephesians 4:6, 1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 John 5:20

It would be great if you would stop repeating your arguments which I have dealt with, and instead actually address my rebuttals with something substantive.

https://christianforums.net/threads/unique-not-only-begotten.102180/page-24#post-1842944

Isaiah 45
5I am the LORD, and there is no other;
there is no God but Me.
I will equip you for battle,
though you have not known Me,

And what are you trying to say with this verse?

Or you are.

Not me. I gave verses in which Jesus very clearly states that he is the light of the world, which means he is the "true light" that "was coming into the world" (John 1:9-10), and you're denying that that is the case. Of course, Jesus need not even have said that he is the light of the world in order to understand what John said, since John is only talking about Jesus and his preexistence as the eternal Son of God, the Word.

Jesus called his disciples the light of the world too.

Yes, he did. But they can't be the light of the world if he is not the true light which came into the world. Context matters.

Same applies to the disciples.

Not in the same sense, at all. Their light is a derived light from Jesus, whereas Jesus is the true light. Again, context matters.

John 1
9The true Light who gives light to every man was coming into the world.

John 1
30This is He of whom I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because He was before me.’

God gives it light. Revelation 21:23 calls the Lamb a lamp. Revelation 22:5 says they don't need a lamp.

5There will be no more night in the city, and they will have no need for the light of a lamp or of the sun. For the Lord God will shine on them, and they will reign forever and ever.

Jesus is the true light in John 1:9-10, "who gives light to every man." Hence, he gave light to his disciples.

That's been proven false as far as I am concerned.

Except that it hasn't. Not even close. You've ignored most everything contrary and difficult for your position.

Quote it a million times if you wish. I have already proven beyond a doubt that Jesus isn't the True Light who was in the world. The True Light gives light to men, Jesus is a man.

Again, not even close. You ignore the context of John 1:9-10 and read the Father into those verses which is completely unwarranted. Can you provide even one source to back up your position? I would like to see just one.

That's demonstrably false. Do you have an example of Jesus saying or doing anything pre-incarnate? You need this. If you don't have this, you're simply making things up.

Why do you keep using this argument? I've already dealt with the irrelevancy of it. What is it that you don't understand about the grammar of "was coming into the world"? Who "was coming into the world"? Who did John the Baptist bear witness about? Who is the main focus of John's prologue?

So, again, all of those "he," "him," and "his" pronouns in verses 2-4, 10-12, and 15, are references to the Son. The only time the Father comes in is verse 14 (and then v. 18). The Messiah, the Son, the preincarnate Word, is the true light. Notice that John "came as a witness, to bear witness about the light," which is then restated again as the Son in verse 15.

And no verse shows his deity.

Many do, but you have to actually deal with them and not dismiss them out of hand. Again, as per anti-Trinitarian MO, you take everything piecemeal, whereas you need to everything together at the same time. What you're doing is like trying to do a puzzle by looking at one piece at a time, thinking you've seen the whole puzzle, and then putting that piece back in the box. Trinitarians, on the other hand, put all the pieces together first, to see how they all fit, before coming to an understanding.

I show I understand the word. You show you don't understand it.

What does this have to do with anything?

 

[Free]

Hebrews 1:8 is a quote from Psalm 45 about a human king with a queen. It has nothing to do with Jesus being God. Jesus didn't have queen.

Quite right. I was tired and not sure what I was thinking. Regardless, Heb 1:8 has the Father calling the Son God, and Psalms 110:1 in no way proves that Jesus isn't YHWH; not in the slightest. It's a Messianic Psalm, and David, the king of Israel, is calling the Messiah his Lord, his Sovereign, despite his Lord being his son (Matt 22:42-45; cf. Matt 1:1).

So, you first have to show how the son of David, who is obviously Jesus, can be David's superior and Sovereign, despite David being a king.

Because Jesus loved righteous and hated wickedness, he got annointed? That isn't God. God doesn't have peers to be anointed above because He's already above everyone.

You're missing the point: the Father calls the Son God.

Verse 10 begins with and which means it is joined with verse 10. The Lord refers to the preveiously mentioned God. The God who anointed Jesus is the Father.

Your reasoning here makes no sense. The "And" connects back to verse 8, with the Father still speaking "of the Son." So, in verse 10 the Father is calling the Son LORD, which is YHWH, being that it is a quote from Psalms 102 about YHWH (mentioned 8 times in that passage).

Acts 4:23-31 clearly shows the Sovereign Lord and Creator is God and Jesus isn't.

It does? Where? Would Luke contradict John, Paul, and the author of Hebrews?

Jesus is His servant.

Perhaps it's time you addressed Phil 2:5-8, which I have posted more than once. Jesus being God's servant in no way whatsoever precludes him from being God and equal to the Father.

The Son is heir of all things and we are co-heirs with Jesus. It has nothing to do with deity.

Romans 8
17And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Again, your typical evasion tactic. You didn't even actually address what Heb 1:2 states:

Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. (ESV)

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

It's more than opinion. Again, you really need to start actually addressing these passages. It's very dishonest and disrespectful to continually ignore what people are posting, especially if it's difficult for your position.

So, the quote in verses 10-13 support verse 2, which support John 1:1-3, 1 Cor 8:6, and Col 1:16-17, among others.

Sure, let's look at how Jesus is absolutely not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob or the I AM. This is not how Jesus is remembered .

Acts 3
13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus.

Exodus 3
14God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
15God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.

Yet again, you're ignoring the clear meaning of a text and calling Jesus a liar. Jesus himself stated:

Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” (ESV)

Jesus is comparing the temporary existence of Abraham with his timeless existence as the I Am. This is in full agreement with John 1:1-2. Everything John states about the Word, the eternal Son, is absolutely crucial for and forms the basis for everything else about Jesus throughout his gospel and into his epistles.

 

[Free]

1 John 1:1,2 says the word of life is an it. I see it right there on the pages. I am not reading paragraph after paragraph of your workaround to attempt undo that.

Of course not. That way you don't have to actually deal with anything difficult for your position. At least you're consistent.

No. I think we are going in circles at this point. I don't need anymore theology and reason and loopholes and semantics. Jesus didn't say he's God or do anything that demonstrated it.

He claimed it and proved it, which is why the disciples believed it, culminating in Thomas's statement and John's gospel, among other things.

Previously refuted.

Again, not even close. You've taken things completely out of context.

Where did Jesus get his way, truth, and life from? This isn't a trick question.

John 14
6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

John 8
40But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing.

John 12
49I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it. 50And I know that His command leads to eternal life. So I speak exactly what the Father has told Me to say.”

Jesus wasn't claiming to "know the way and the truth and the life," although he certainly did know, he claimed to be "the way and the truth and the life," just as he claimed to be the light of the world and the I Am.

I will respond in any way I wish to respond. If I want to give you more then I will. If I don't then I won't. However, it is not my intention to make anyone feel disrespected. I am sorry to hear you feel that way.

Well, every anti-Trinitarian ignores those things that are too difficult for their position. It's dishonest but there is nothing I can do about that. It is also disrespectful. You'll notice that I consistently respond to every objection, it's just unfortunate that it is never reciprocated by anti-Trinitarians. That really says everything. I want to learn because I am interested in the truth.

 

[Free]

But why is Thomas less blessed? Thomas didn't confess a man-god, rather the apostolic fathers were impressed without written proof there, by the miracle. It is obvious that Thomas did not think his God and his lord were the same.

No, Thomas called Jesus his Lord and his God. That is indisputable. He was blessed, but in some way not as blessed as those who wouldn't see the risen Jesus in the flesh and yet would believe. How could he not be blessed by having been witness to Jesus's ministry and then his resurrection, being called to be a disciple and then an apostle? Again, if Thomas isn't blessed, then none of the other disciples were either, since they all doubted until they saw evidence.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't have a problem. The Trinity isn't in the Bible.

The Trinity states that there is ONE GOD....
There are 3 PERSONS in One God. You could read up on what a Person of the Trinity is. Not enough time for me.

So who are these Persons?:

GOD FATHER:

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth.

John 3:16
For God so loved the World....

1 John 1:5
God is light and in Him there is no darkness.


GOD SON

Mark 5:7
When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”


John 5:18
This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.


2 Peter 1:1
To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with outs by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

John 20:28
Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

Hebrews 1:3
[Jesus] is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.

According to you, only those who believe Jesus is God are Christians. That's not in the Bible.

It's not according to me.
Arians believed Jesus was a man.
Perhaps you're an arian?
Arians were heretical.
They were unorthodox.
This is plain history.

The context says the word is God and that Jesus was created.

The Word is JESUS.

The Word was WITH GOD.
WHO was with God?

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
WHO became flesh and dwelt among us?

Doesn't say Jesus is God.

WHO is the great I AM?
Exodus 3:14

Jesus said He is the I AM.
So WHO is Jesus?
Can a man be the great I AM?

Hebrews 1:10 begins with "and" in most versions. Since it begins with "and" then it is joined to Hebrews 1:9. The Lord refers to the previously mentioned God which would be the Father.

Read verse 8 of Hebrews 1.
It states: OF THE SON HE SAID....
God Father is speaking of the Son.
"Oh Lord" is addressed to the Son.

Isaiah 7:15 in context says Immanuel needs times to know good and reject evil. That's undeniably not a description of God. That's a description of a man.

So a virgin gave birth to this child?
It's accepted Christian theology that this is a shadowing of Jesus.
A prophecy fulfilled by Christ.

The definition of the name Immanuel is God is with us. It doesn't mean "Jesus is God."

And WHO came to be with us?
It was Jesus --- God saves.
Interesting name....Jesus was the savior.

And the OT proclaims that God Himself will save His people.
Psalms 34:22
The LORD redeems the soul of His servants,
And none of those who take refuge in Him will be condemned.

Jesus never said he is God, contrary to what you're saying. How do you account for that?

Why was he killed?
You never did reply to this question.

Why can Jesus be tempted and God can't be tempted?

Jesus was sent to earth in order to be tempted but not to sin.
He was the unblemished Lamb of God.

Why did Jesus not say or do anything that clearly indicates he is God?

He forgave sin.
Can you forgive sin?

Why do you have no examples of Jesus pre-existing or doing something only God can do?

Many verses have been given to you.
You don't accept them because you have your own version of Christianity.

Do you truly believe the Father is the only true God as scripture plainly says?

Yes. Of course.
Within the Father, who is the Godhead, reside Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
One God.
Three Person in One God.

Jesus acknowledged this.
He said to baptize in the name of
The Father
The Son
The Holy Spirit

Each holding the same authority/importance.

 

[Runningman]

And, yet, none of the precludes Jesus from also being God. Do you know of a son that is of a completely different nature than his father?

Yes and a son is not his own father.

It could be a rhetorical question, with Jesus trying to get the man to realize what he said. But most likely, it is as Wuest states:

'(10:18) Swete says: "The emphasis is on the word "good," not on the pronoun. The Lord begins by compelling the enquirer to consider his own words. He had used the word 'good' lightly, in a manner which revealed the poverty of his moral conceptions. . . The man is summoned to contemplate the absolute goodness of God, and to measure himself by that supreme standard. Viewed in this light the words are seen not to touch the question of our Lord's human sinlessness or of His oneness with the Father; on the other hand they are consistent with the humility which led Him as Man to refrain from asserting His equality with God."' (Word Studies in the Greek New Testament, vol 1, p. 201)

It was a deflection. Jesus was called good then attributed goodness to God. Jesus diverted attention away from himself. Jesus distanced himself from being inherently good or God. This is called a denial.

We can do an exercise by simply using different examples:

Why do you call me good? No one is good—except John alone.
Why do you call me cool? No one is cool—except Jane alone.
Why do you call me nice? No one is nice—except Jeff alone.
Why do you call me sweet? No one is sweet—except Jess alone.

If you called someone good and they said "Why do you call me good? No one is good—except X person alone." Then you would know they weren't claiming to be the person they were deferring to. Why do you make an exception for Jesus? Can you prove Jesus is inherently good?

You have stated that God is "unitarian" many times, yet, I asked you to show me where "unitarian" appears in the Bible. I know you won't because you can't; it's not in the Bible. Hence, it shows the fallacy of your argument that if I can't show "God the Son" (or "Trinity," if you were to ask) in the Bible, then the idea isn't biblical. Using your reasoning, since "unitarian" isn't in the Bible, it's not a biblical concept either.

Unitarian is the name of a theology, but I don't claim the word is in the Bible. It's described in the Bible. We believe in One God, the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son. I can quote explicit declarations of all of this from the Bible. Trinitarianism can't do this.

Not me. I gave verses in which Jesus very clearly states that he is the light of the world, which means he is the "true light" that "was coming into the world" (John 1:9-10), and you're denying that that is the case. Of course, Jesus need not even have said that he is the light of the world in order to understand what John said, since John is only talking about Jesus and his preexistence as the eternal Son of God, the Word.

Once again, the disciples are also called the light of the world in Matt 5:14. Jesus is also called the light of the world. Jesus and his disciples are men, yes? Well, in John 1:9 it says the True Light gives light to men. Then that means Jesus isn't the True Light since the context says "he was in the world" then later it says Jesus "came from above."

I think the confusion regarding this is because many Bibles mistranslate John 1. There are good reasons to view the "Word" as something personified or a characteristic of God, but not actually God Himself.

Yes, he did. But they can't be the light of the world if he is not the true light which came into the world. Context matters.


Not in the same sense, at all. Their light is a derived light from Jesus, whereas Jesus is the true light. Again, context matters.


Jesus is the true light in John 1:9-10, "who gives light to every man." Hence, he gave light to his disciples.

The true Light is God, not Jesus. I like Revelation 21:23 because it shows that God is a greater light than Jesus. God can light a city, but the Lamb is a lamp; lamps do not light an entire city. Then Revelation 22:5 says they don't need a lamp anymore because God will light the city. This refers to the Lordship of Jesus coming to an end as 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 says.

Why do you keep using this argument? I've already dealt with the irrelevancy of it. What is it that you don't understand about the grammar of "was coming into the world"? Who "was coming into the world"? Who did John the Baptist bear witness about? Who is the main focus of John's prologue?

To keep these posts more concise and easier to follow I am just going to begin cutting off the parts where we start going in circles.

 

[Runningman]

Heb 1:8 has the Father calling the Son God, and Psalms 110:1 in no way proves that Jesus isn't YHWH; not in the slightest. It's a Messianic Psalm, and David, the king of Israel, is calling the Messiah his Lord, his Sovereign, despite his Lord being his son (Matt 22:42-45; cf. Matt 1:1).

My point is that since Hebrews 1:8 is quoted from Psalm 45, do you hold the belief that God is a human king with a queen?

So, you first have to show how the son of David, who is obviously Jesus, can be David's superior and Sovereign, despite David being a king.

I will ask you the same question Jesus asked the Pharisees regarding Psalm 110:1. They also wanted to say Jesus is David's son but the point is Jesus is saying David's Lord is the Son of God. Jesus is called the Son of God all over the Bible. Believing Jesus is the Son of David is not a point of the gospel.

Matt 22
45So if David calls Him ‘Lord,’ how can He be David’s son?”

The "And" connects back to verse 8, with the Father still speaking "of the Son." So, in verse 10 the Father is calling the Son LORD, which is YHWH, being that it is a quote from Psalms 102 about YHWH (mentioned 8 times in that passage).

Hebrews 1:10 begins with the conjunction "And," indicating a continuation or addition to the previous statement. The previous statement in Hebrews 1:9 is about God anointing someone above their companions with the oil of joy. The one who was anointed has a God. The "O Lord" in Hebrews 1:10 refers back to the previously mentioned God which would be the Father. Therefore "O Lord" is a direct reference to God, specifically to the God who laid the foundations of the earth and created the heavens.

The one who created the heavens and earth is the Sovereign Lord and Creator as Acts 4:23-31 says. Jesus is God's servant.

Perhaps it's time you addressed Phil 2:5-8, which I have posted more than once. Jesus being God's servant in no way whatsoever precludes him from being God and equal to the Father.

Verse 5 begins with telling the Philippians to have the same mind as Jesus. After that, Paul describes that mind of Jesus. Paul wasn't telling them to believe that they are themselves God because that isn't what Jesus believed about himself in his mind.

Again, your typical evasion tactic. You didn't even actually address what Heb 1:2 states:

Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. (ESV)

The word "world" in Hebrews 1:2 is aión. It doesn't mean world or universe. Aión means an age, a cycle of time. The context is regarding the last days, not the first days.

So, the quote in verses 10-13 support verse 2, which support John 1:1-3, 1 Cor 8:6, and Col 1:16-17, among others.

How does 1 Cor 8:6 help at all?

Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” (ESV)

Jesus is comparing the temporary existence of Abraham with his timeless existence as the I Am. This is in full agreement with John 1:1-2. Everything John states about the Word, the eternal Son, is absolutely crucial for and forms the basis for everything else about Jesus throughout his gospel and into his epistles.

It's just about the prophecies regarding Jesus that existed before Abraham. Jesus didn't literally exist before Abraham. Will you please quote any examples of Jesus saying or doing anything in the Old Testament?

 

[Runningman]

He claimed it and proved it, which is why the disciples believed it, culminating in Thomas's statement and John's gospel, among other things.

When someone is resurrected it means they are God? There is a resurrection coming for those counted worth. It doesn't follow that being resurrected is an indicator of that person being God.

Jesus wasn't claiming to "know the way and the truth and the life," although he certainly did know, he claimed to be "the way and the truth and the life," just as he claimed to be the light of the world and the I Am.

But where did he get his truth and life from? He said it came from God. He had to be taught these things from God according to John 8:28. Does "God incarnate" need to be taught the word of God?

Well, every anti-Trinitarian ignores those things that are too difficult for their position. It's dishonest but there is nothing I can do about that. It is also disrespectful. You'll notice that I consistently respond to every objection, it's just unfortunate that it is never reciprocated by anti-Trinitarians. That really says everything. I want to learn because I am interested in the truth.

Reminder, I will begin ignoring and cutting out these kind of replies going forward.

 

[Runningman]

The Trinity states that there is ONE GOD....

So far so good.

There are 3 PERSONS in One God. You could read up on what a Person of the Trinity is. Not enough time for me.

Verse?

So who are these Persons?:

GOD FATHER:

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth.

John 3:16
For God so loved the World....

1 John 1:5
God is light and in Him there is no darkness.

John 17:3 says the Father in your Trinity is the only true God. While I know you believe the others in your Trinity are also God, but this explicitly says the Father is the only true God. The word "only" means and no one or nothing more besides; solely or exclusively. That rules out others being God in your Trinity. That's simply what it says.

GOD SON
Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

Matthew 9:6-8 proves that Jesus received the authority to forgive sins from God. That means Jesus didn't have this authority without God's go-ahead and it also means Jesus isn't God.

6But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...” Then He said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your mat, and go home.” 7And the man got up and went home.

8When the crowds saw this, they were filled with awe and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.

John 5:18
This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

They misunderstood what Jesus was saying because Jesus denied being equal with God.

John 14
28You heard Me say, ‘I am going away, and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I.

2 Peter 1:1
To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with outs by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

God and Savior Jesus are two different persons. See the next verse where it is clear that Jesus and God are seperate.

2 Peter 1
2Grace and peace be multiplied to you through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

John 20:28
Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

I am not a follower of Thomas. I am a follower of Jesus who called his Father his God.

John 20
17“Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’ ”

Hebrews 1:3
[Jesus] is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.

God's glory isn't God.

It's not according to me.
Arians believed Jesus was a man.
Perhaps you're an arian?
Arians were heretical.
They were unorthodox.
This is plain history.

Wouldn't Arians say that about Trinitarians though?

The Word is JESUS.

Word (Logos) doesn't mean Jesus. It means a word, speech, or divine utterance. That's the definition of logos.

The Word was WITH GOD.
WHO was with God?

A word, speech, or divine utterance isn't God. The word is being personified.

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
WHO became flesh and dwelt among us?

The Logos of God created a man.

WHO is the great I AM?
Exodus 3:14

Jesus said He is the I AM.
So WHO is Jesus?
Can a man be the great I AM?

Exodus 3:14,15 say the I AM is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Acts 3:13 says that Jesus is His servant. That means Jesus isn't the I am. Jesus didn't claim to be God in John 8:58.

Read verse 8 of Hebrews 1.
It states: OF THE SON HE SAID....
God Father is speaking of the Son.
"Oh Lord" is addressed to the Son.

That's quoted from Psalm 45 where it speaks of a human king with a queen who has a God over him. Where the word god is used in the Bible, it is not always a reference to the supreme God.

1 Cor 8:5,6 say there are many gods, but only one God known as the Father.

So a virgin gave birth to this child?
It's accepted Christian theology that this is a shadowing of Jesus.
A prophecy fulfilled by Christ.

Isaiah 7:14,15 describes a human.

And WHO came to be with us?
It was Jesus --- God saves.
Interesting name....Jesus was the savior.

Jesus didn't begin his ministry until the water baptism of John. That's when God gave him the go-ahead and anointed him. Acts 10:37,38

And the OT proclaims that God Himself will save His people.
Psalms 34:22
The LORD redeems the soul of His servants,
And none of those who take refuge in Him will be condemned.

John 3:16 says that God saves through Jesus. God saves and Jesus saves isn't intended to create the false dichotomy that they are the same person. God and Jesus can work together without being the same person.

Why was he killed?
You never did reply to this question.

Acts 2
23He was delivered up by God’s set plan and foreknowledge, and you, by the hands of the lawless, put Him to death by nailing Him to the cross.

Jesus was sent to earth in order to be tempted but not to sin.
He was the unblemished Lamb of God.

God can't be tempted nor does He tempt anyone. A man being God would be a temptation to worship a creation as God. It would be idolatry and temptation to sin.

On that note, there are no examples of Jesus being worshipped as God in the Bible. Since that's the case, it's clear no one believed Jesus is God in the Bible.

He forgave sin.
Can you forgive sin?

I could if God gave me the authority like He did to Jesus.

Many verses have been given to you.
You don't accept them because you have your own version of Christianity.

Same to you.

Yes. Of course.
Within the Father, who is the Godhead, reside Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
One God.
Three Person in One God.

Just admit that it's not in the Bible and I am good with that.

Jesus acknowledged this.
He said to baptize in the name of
The Father
The Son
The Holy Spirit

Each holding the same authority/importance.

Yes he said that, but he didn't say they are 1 God in 3 persons did he?

 

[7thMoon]

No, Thomas called Jesus his Lord and his God.

No, he called Jesus his lord, and YHWH his God. What you say is totally disputable. Thomas was less blessed, because he doubted. I did not say he was unblessed.

 

[7thMoon]

Verse 5 begins with telling the Philippians to have the same mind as Jesus.

This is important, since you cannot emulate a god-man who doesn't truly suffer nor is not 100% human. How are we supposed empty ourselves of divinity which we don't have. The answer is that the messiah emptied himself of other statuses.

 

[7thMoon]

No, Thomas called Jesus his Lord and his God. That is indisputable. He was blessed, but in some way not as blessed as those who wouldn't see the risen Jesus in the flesh and yet would believe. How could he not be blessed by having been witness to Jesus's ministry and then his resurrection, being called to be a disciple and then an apostle? Again, if Thomas isn't blessed, then none of the other disciples were either, since they all doubted until they saw evidence.

I should probably say Early Church Fathers instead of apostolic fathers for clarity.

 

[7thMoon]

Yes and a son is not his own father.


It was a deflection. Jesus was called good then attributed goodness to God. Jesus diverted attention away from himself. Jesus distanced himself from being inherently good or God. This is called a denial.

We can do an exercise by simply using different examples:

Why do you call me good? No one is good—except John alone.
Why do you call me cool? No one is cool—except Jane alone.
Why do you call me nice? No one is nice—except Jeff alone.
Why do you call me sweet? No one is sweet—except Jess alone.

If you called someone good and they said "Why do you call me good? No one is good—except X person alone." Then you would know they weren't claiming to be the person they were deferring to. Why do you make an exception for Jesus? Can you prove Jesus is inherently good?


Unitarian is the name of a theology, but I don't claim the word is in the Bible. It's described in the Bible. We believe in One God, the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son. I can quote explicit declarations of all of this from the Bible. Trinitarianism can't do this.


Once again, the disciples are also called the light of the world in Matt 5:14. Jesus is also called the light of the world. Jesus and his disciples are men, yes? Well, in John 1:9 it says the True Light gives light to men. Then that means Jesus isn't the True Light since the context says "he was in the world" then later it says Jesus "came from above."

I think the confusion regarding this is because many Bibles mistranslate John 1. There are good reasons to view the "Word" as something personified or a characteristic of God, but not actually God Himself.


The true Light is God, not Jesus. I like Revelation 21:23 because it shows that God is a greater light than Jesus. God can light a city, but the Lamb is a lamp; lamps do not light an entire city. Then Revelation 22:5 says they don't need a lamp anymore because God will light the city. This refers to the Lordship of Jesus coming to an end as 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 says.


To keep these posts more concise and easier to follow I am just going to begin cutting off the parts where we start going in circles.

I think you have a problem with the Greek word αγαθος. It means perfect or ideal. There is none perfect or ideal except God. It is Jesus perfect or without blemish?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I also think that I don't make a special exception for Jesus. If he is a Son of God and others a Son of God then either they are God or they aren't. Since we can safely say that human beings are not God then Jesus isn't God. I think that's fair. I may have mentioned this to you once already, but what Jesus did others did too.


I believe he is a man through whom God worked. God also works through other men. A half man half God isn't God. At best that would be a demigod which is equally unscriptural. If Jesus is a God Man then he isn't even a human being.

Think of it like this... if someone's father is not a human and someone's mother is a human then they're a hybrid, not even a human.

Contrary to what you may feel, the Bible describes Jesus as a man even post-resurrection and post-ascension.

By some estimates, 1 Timothy was written some 30 years after God took Jesus to heaven. Do you call God a man between God and men?

5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

This is all your unbelief that God can not appear and incarnate as a man. You're putting God in a box by denying His prerogative and ability to do so, and you're accusing me what you're guilty of.

 

[7thMoon]

This is all your unbelief that God can not appear and incarnate as a man. You're putting God in a box by denying His prerogative and ability to do so, and you're accusing me what you're guilty of.

Unbelief is better than being lied to.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Unbelief is better than being lied to.

Only if you disregard the whole bible as a lie. Without Jesus, whoever or whatever you believe as God is a lie.

 

[7thMoon]

Only if you disregard the whole bible as a lie. Without Jesus, whoever or whatever you believe as God is a lie.

For someone who believes the English translations are the scriptures, you could come to that conclusion. To believe that God cannot be an entity of matter is not a lie. A lie would be to say God is a man so as to repent like a man. God is not a man so as to repent or regret like a man.

 

[Runningman]

This is important, since you cannot emulate a god-man who doesn't truly suffer nor is not 100% human. How are we supposed empty ourselves of divinity which we don't have. The answer is that the messiah emptied himself of other statuses.

Indeed. I only touched the first verse, but I think it's clear that since the Philippians were instructed to have the mind of Jesus then Paul wasn't building a case for the deity of Jesus. Afterall, the fastest way to say something is to say it directly. Paul did directly say who True God is and he said that's the Father.

1 Thessalonians 1
9For they themselves report what kind of welcome you gave us, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God 10and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.

 

[Runningman]

I think you have a problem with the Greek word αγαθος. It means perfect or ideal. There is none perfect or ideal except God. It is Jesus perfect or without blemish?

What I saw in a lexicon is that it means inherently good. Can you let me know what your source is please.

 

[Runningman]

This is all your unbelief that God can not appear and incarnate as a man.

God denied being man. Being man is not something He does.

Hosea 11
9I will not execute the full fury of My anger;
I will not turn back to destroy Ephraim.
For I am God and not man—
the Holy One among you—
and I will not come in wrath.

You're putting God in a box by denying His prerogative and ability to do so

To the contrary. I am simply taking God at His word that He isn't a man.

and you're accusing me what you're guilty of.

??

What do you think I accused you of?