Unique, Not Only-Begotten

[Randy]

I would simply refer you back to my previous post which clearly showed that you are indeed misunderstanding. Since you don’t seemed to have read it, please look it over once you have time and/or are open to it. Thanks.

I would refer you to scripture. john 1-1:1-3; 1John 1:1-4-The word of life from the beginning; Hebrews 1-about that Son as contrasted to the angels of God; Col 1: 15-19

I know Jesus and the Jesus I know is a begotten Son who is ALL that the Father is. He is before all things and God brought into existence all those things by Him and through Him and for Him.

He came down from heaven from the Fathers presence and testified to things He saw and heard as one who speaks from above as the only such eye witness.

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him

John the Baptist knew this before the 12 about Jesus

The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33Whoever has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit. 35The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

My understanding will never change as I know the one who gave the understanding to me. If you refuse the clear reading to all such scripture then all we will do is repeat ourselves over and over disagreeing. I have no desire for that outcome.

 

[GodsGrace]

Don't you think Jesus is "the glory" of the only God our savior the Father?

while we wait for the blessed hope, —the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

Jude 1:24
To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen

Paul-Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I'm sorry Randy.
You mentioned my reply above, but I don't understand why.

 

[Runningman]

Is. 7:14-15 does NOT say he will reject sin or choose sin. It says he will reject EVIL and choose good. That's speaking of Jesus's character which directly reflects God's character, it's not about behavior. As long as you think it's about behavior, you don't get it. Jesus didn't "need" to grow in stature/favor before God, it's the fulfillment of Is. 7:14-15 that He grew in stature/favor before God, this is descriptive, not prescriptive.

That is not what Isaiah 7:15 says. Let's post it so we don't get off track into unscriptural ideas. This refers to spiritual development, a process of being perfected, incrementally, step by step. This isn't something God needs to do, but it does absolutely apply to a human.

Isaiah 7
15By the time He knows enough to reject evil and choose good, He will be eating curds and honey.

Hebrews 5
8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from what He suffered. 9And having been made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him

 

[Runningman]

I would refer you to scripture. john 1-1:1-3; 1John 1:1-4-The word of life from the beginning; Hebrews 1-about that Son as contrasted to the angels of God; Col 1: 15-19

I would offer you that they don't explicitly refer to what you're talking about. As 1 John 1 says, John is writing about what they (the disciples) saw, heard, and touched - the word of life - referring to the word of life as an it. This has nothing to do with the literal beginning of the creation of the universe. John and company were not there at the beginning of the universe.

Hebrews 1:1,2, refers to God speaking through and creating through the son in "these last days." In times past God did not speak through the son, but rather through the prophets, but in these last days speaks through the son in regards to the creation of this age, the church age. The universe wasn't created 2,000 years ago.

You also posted Colossians 1:15-19. Often verse 20 is left off when people quote this passage, for some reason, but verse 20 is key as it does clearly demonstrates that Paul is speaking of creation of "all things" in a very limited sense. Jesus being "before all things" with "all things held together" by Jesus is squarely in context of the church. None of the "all things" happened until his crucifixion. Again, it's speaking about the church age, not the literal beginning of space and time. It all happened through the blood of his cross.

Col. 1
20and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross.

I know Jesus and the Jesus I know is a begotten Son who is ALL that the Father is. He is before all things and God brought into existence all those things by Him and through Him and for Him.

You don't know that, you believe that.

He came down from heaven from the Fathers presence and testified to things He saw and heard as one who speaks from above as the only such eye witness.

John 6 says Jesus didn't have a literal pre-existence. Jesus compared himself to the manna that came down from heaven. The manna that came down from heaven isn't God. God sent the manna and God sent Jesus. It isn't as though the manna was sitting up in the sky since eternity waiting to be delivered to the Israelites then for the comparison to be accurate then neither was Jesus.

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him

Delcared him, yes. It refers to knowing God.

John the Baptist knew this before the 12 about Jesus

The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33Whoever has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit. 35The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

It refers to God sending Jesus. God also sent John the Baptist.

John 1
6There came a man who was sent from God. His name was John.

My understanding will never change as I know the one who gave the understanding to me. If you refuse the clear reading to all such scripture then all we will do is repeat ourselves over and over disagreeing. I have no desire for that outcome.

I believe human beings gave you a flawed understanding of scripture, but if you insist you will never change then you have the right to do so.

I would still offer you what the Bible says, though.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

That is not what Isaiah 7:15 says. Let's post it so we don't get off track into unscriptural ideas. This refers to spiritual development, a process of being perfected, incrementally, step by step. This isn't something God needs to do, but it does absolutely apply to a human.

You're the one who got into unscriptural idea of "choosing not to sin" which is not what Is. 7:15 says at all, not me. Is. 7:15 shows his humanity, he wasn't dropped from the sky. No, God didn't need to do that, he appeared as adult man multiple times in the OT such as his visit to Abraham in Gen. 18. WE need a savior whom we can relate to, God did it for US. We need spiritual and physical development, we need a process of being perfected. Baptism is just a cold bath, it doesn't instantaneously transform you into a saint, it's the start of your journey, not the end. God became a man and dwelt among us for the purpose of demonstration, he was leading by example.

 

[Hopeful 2]

You read James 1:13-14 wrong. God cannot be tempted means God does not yield to temptation, he is immune to temptation, it doesn’t mean temptation doesn’t exist or nobody can try to tempt God. “You shall not tempt the Lord your God,” Matt. 4:7.

Immunity to temptation doesn't mean one isn't still tempted.
It just means they won't fall for the temptation.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Immunity to temptation doesn't mean one isn't still tempted.
It just means they won't fall for the temptation.

Says you who claims yourself sinless like Jesus?

 

[Runningman]

You're the one who got into unscriptural idea of "choosing not to sin" which is not what Is. 7:15 says at all, not me. Is. 7:15 shows his humanity

Humans have to chose not to sin, God can't sin.

he wasn't dropped from the sky. No, God didn't need to do that, he appeared as adult man multiple times in the OT such as his visit to Abraham in Gen. 18.

There is not a single quote or action by Jesus in the Old Testament. He didn't exist.

WE need a savior whom we can relate to,

Agreed.

God did it for US.

What do you think God did exactly?

We need spiritual and physical development, we need a process of being perfected. Baptism is just a cold bath, it's the start of your journey, not the end. God became a man and dwelt among us for the purpose of demonstration, he was leading by example.

God did not become a man and dwell among us. God is the Father and Jesus is a man whom God sent. John 17:3

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

God did not become a man and dwell among us. God is the Father and Jesus is a man whom God sent. John 17:3

Then you're just in denial. God manifested as a man and died for us.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (Rev. 1:8)
Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades. (Rev. 1:17-18)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

There is not a single quote or action by Jesus in the Old Testament. He didn't exist.

"And the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day." (Gen. 18:1)
"I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven, there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days, and was presented before him." (Dan. 7:13)

In the OT his identity was hidden, in the NT he was revealed as Jesus. This is like, "if a tree fell down in a forest and no one saw it, did it happen?"

 

[Runningman]

"And the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day." (Gen. 18:1)
"I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven, there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days, and was presented before him." (Dan. 7:13)

That isn't Jesus. You bolded "son of man" like that means something. The Bible says God is not a son of man.

Numbers 23
19God is not a man, that He should lie,
or a son of man, that He should change His mind.

In the OT his identity was hidden, in the NT he was revealed as Jesus. This is like, "if a tree fell down in a forest and no one saw it, did it happen?"

I don't like the "argument from ignorance" because that's how people just make things up. There is no reason to believe Jesus said or did anything in the Old Testament. That's almost like he didn't exist.

 

[Runningman]

Then you're just in denial. God manifested as a man and died for us.

I'm in denial? You believe God died?

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (Rev. 1:8)

Revelation 1:8 is not a quote by Jesus. Very few, maybe one or two, Bible versions use red-letters for this verse.

Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades. (Rev. 1:17-18)

Jesus died and God resurrected him. God can't die my friend.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Says you who claims yourself sinless like Jesus?

Yes, just as He commnaded...in Matt 5:48...“Be ye therefore perfect, even as you Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt 5:48)
And Paul exhorted in 1 Cor 15:34..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34).
And Peter admonished in 1 Peter 4:1..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
And John witnesses in 1 John 5:18...“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)

Obeying the Lord makes sense to me.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

That isn't Jesus. You bolded "son of man" like that means something. The Bible says God is not a son of man.

Numbers 23
19God is not a man, that He should lie,
or a son of man, that He should change His mind.

Nonetheless God manifested as a man. "I and my father are one." "Before Abraham was, I AM." If you agree that we need a savior we can relate to, then you shouldn't question his humanity.

I don't like the "argument from ignorance" because that's how people just make things up. There is no reason to believe Jesus said or did anything in the Old Testament. That's almost like he didn't exist.

But the prophecy of him as the messiah is everywhere. "In the beginning was the Word," that's in the OT; "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us," that's the NT. Just because Jesus wasn't incarnated in the OT doesn't mean he all of a sudden popped up out of thin air in the NT. He was not an afterthought or a reaction, he existed before the foundation of the world.

Revelation 1:8 is not a quote by Jesus. Very few, maybe one or two, Bible versions use red-letters for this verse.

Then that's just an issue of bible version and your personal preference. I only have one NJKV, which uses red letter for this verse, also Rev. 22:12-13, where the exact same rhetoric was uttered: "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”"

Jesus died and God resurrected him. God can't die my friend.

He can't die in heaven as a deity, but he can on earth as a man. "There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another." (1 Cor. 15:40) He died because the wages of sin is death, and He took over all the sins of mankind onto himself. "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" (Jn. 1:29)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yes, just as He commnaded...in Matt 5:48...“Be ye therefore perfect, even as you Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt 5:48)
And Paul exhorted in 1 Cor 15:34..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34).
And Peter admonished in 1 Peter 4:1..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
And John witnesses in 1 John 5:18...“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)

Obeying the Lord makes sense to me.

Keep your heresy to yourself, and repent your self righteousness.

 

[Runningman]

Nonetheless God manifested as a man. "I and my father are one." "Before Abraham was, I AM." If you agree that we need a savior we can relate to, then you shouldn't question his humanity.

You don't have any scriptural proof for that. Being one with God isn't something exclusive to Jesus.

John 17
21that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

But the prophecy of him as the messiah is everywhere. "In the beginning was the Word," that's in the OT; "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us," that's the NT. Just because Jesus wasn't incarnated in the OT doesn't mean he all of a sudden popped up out of thin air in the NT. He was not an afterthought or a reaction, he existed before the foundation of the world.

He did not exist before the foundation of the world except for in prophecy. The "word" (logos) of John 1:1 refers to words, a speech, or utterance. It's fundamentally God's foreknowledge and plans. Every single person exists in the word (logos) of God. It does not mean what you seem to think.

Then that's just an issue of bible version and your personal preference. I only have one NJKV, which uses red letter for this verse, also Rev. 22:12-13, where the exact same rhetoric was uttered: "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”"

First and last isn't a reference to deity.

Matt 19
30But many who are first will be last, and the last will be first.

He can't die in heaven as a deity, but he can on earth as a man. "There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another." (1 Cor. 15:40) He died because the wages of sin is death, and He took over all the sins of mankind onto himself. "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" (Jn. 1:29)

The lamb of God is not God.

Revelation 21
22But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

Begin here with the fact that the only true God is the Father. That means Jesus is not God.

John 17
1When Jesus had spoken these things, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may glorify You. 2For You granted Him authority over all people,a so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. 3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You don't have any scriptural proof for that. Being one with God isn't something exclusive to Jesus.

"Hear O Israel, the Lord is God, the Lord is ONE."

He did not exist before the foundation of the world except for in prophecy. The "word" (logos) of John 1:1 refers to words, a speech, or utterance. It's fundamentally God's foreknowledge and plans. Every single person exists in the word (logos) of God. It does not mean what you seem to think.

This one is exclusively referring to Jesus in Deut. 18:18 - " I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him."

First and last isn't a reference to deity.

Matt 19
30But many who are first will be last, and the last will be first.

But alpha and omega, beginning and the end are.

Begin here with the fact that the only true God is the Father. That means Jesus is not God.

Haven't we discussed this before? Jesus is the manifestation of God. When your face is on camera, is that you or somebody else? Or use a closer analogy, imagine yourself controlling a character in a digital realm, you can communicate with others and others can only know you through your character, is that character you or somebody else?

The bottom line is, Jesus is the only way to know God, if you deny his deity, then there's no alternative, any idea of God in your mind is just an idol. God is in heaven, he's like the sun, if you look directly into the sun you'd be blinded. "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live."(Ex. 33:20) Insofar you don't seem to have proposed any idea, you just keep arguing that Jesus is not God, Jesus is not God for the sake of arguing. If he's not God, then who is? Zeus? And how do you know God? Through the pope?

 

[Runningman]

"Hear O Israel, the Lord is God, the Lord is ONE."

Correct and it refers to there being one true God known as YHWH. John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6 say there is one God. That means Jesus is not God.

This one is exclusively referring to Jesus in Deut. 18:18 - " I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him."

The prophet Jesus wasn't raised up among his brethren until after his birth.

But alpha and omega, beginning and the end are.

No, those are letters of the Greek alphabet. It isn't a direct reference to deity.

Haven't we discussed this before? Jesus is the manifestation of God. When your face is on camera, is that you or somebody else? Or use a closer analogy, imagine yourself controlling a character in a digital realm, you can communicate with others and others can only know you through your character, is that character you or somebody else?

I am not sure what you're getting at, but no a picture of me or a video game character is not me. In the same way, Jesus is not God. Any representation of God would be an idol and it's a sin. Exodus 20:4

The bottom line is, Jesus is the only way to know God, if you deny his deity, then there's no alternative, any idea of God in your mind is just an idol.

That's a false gospel so I would be careful pushing that around. The gospel states to believe that God sent his Son, the Messiah. This is what we are told to believe in the Bible. Your gospel of "believe Jesus is God to be saved" is not found in the Bible.

God is in heaven, he's like the sun, if you look directly into the sun you'd be blinded. "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live."(Ex. 33:20) Insofar you don't seem to have proposed any idea, you just keep arguing that Jesus is not God, Jesus is not God for the sake of arguing. If he's not God, then who is? Zeus? And how do you know God? Through the pope?

The Father is the only true God. John 17:3. That's YHWH.

Isaiah 63
16Yet You are our Father,
though Abraham does not know us
and Israel does not acknowledge us.
You, O LORD, are our Father;
our Redeemer from Everlasting is Your name.

 

[Randy]

I would offer you that they don't explicitly refer to what you're talking about. As 1 John 1 says, John is writing about what they (the disciples) saw, heard, and touched - the word of life - referring to the word of life as an it. This has nothing to do with the literal beginning of the creation of the universe. John and company were not there at the beginning of the universe.

Hebrews 1:1,2, refers to God speaking through and creating through the son in "these last days." In times past God did not speak through the son, but rather through the prophets, but in these last days speaks through the son in regards to the creation of this age, the church age. The universe wasn't created 2,000 years ago.

You also posted Colossians 1:15-19. Often verse 20 is left off when people quote this passage, for some reason, but verse 20 is key as it does clearly demonstrates that Paul is speaking of creation of "all things" in a very limited sense. Jesus being "before all things" with "all things held together" by Jesus is squarely in context of the church. None of the "all things" happened until his crucifixion. Again, it's speaking about the church age, not the literal beginning of space and time. It all happened through the blood of his cross.

Col. 1
20and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross.


You don't know that, you believe that.


John 6 says Jesus didn't have a literal pre-existence. Jesus compared himself to the manna that came down from heaven. The manna that came down from heaven isn't God. God sent the manna and God sent Jesus. It isn't as though the manna was sitting up in the sky since eternity waiting to be delivered to the Israelites then for the comparison to be accurate then neither was Jesus.


Delcared him, yes. It refers to knowing God.


It refers to God sending Jesus. God also sent John the Baptist.

John 1
6There came a man who was sent from God. His name was John.

I believe human beings gave you a flawed understanding of scripture, but if you insist you will never change then you have the right to do so.

I would still offer you what the Bible says, though.

We will have to disagree. And I do have understanding from above on who Jesus actually is not just what I believe but what I know from above. Just as I have the Spirit of Christ in me and know Him not just believe in Him. But I gave you unambiguous scripture that states together that God spoke to us in these last days and created through that same Son as the writer contrasts that Son with the Angels of God. Showing the Superiority of Jesus's Sonship to the angels of God.

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word


He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The Father is the only true God. John 17:3. That's YHWH.

How do you know that since John 17:3 is part of Jesus's high priestly prayer? Since you deny his deity, why bother quoting his words? Why quoting any NT at all?

I am not sure what you're getting at, but no a picture of me or a video game character is not me. In the same way, Jesus is not God. Any representation of God would be an idol and it's a sin. Exodus 20:4

So the picture on your driver's license is not you, you've stolen somebody else's identity? If you're Zoom or Facetime or livestreaming or a security camera, that's not you but an imaginary flat person on the screen, even though everybody sees your face knows it's you? Don't be silly, man. You're better than that.