Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

[Iconoclast]

More scraps found on the web;
According to Christianity.com, a decree of God is an order or a law that has the force of a judicial decision 1. It can also be a religious ordinance instituted by a council 1. Decrees of God are His will and His purposes, which include His character, how He deals with us, His plans for the future, and what He has already told us will happen 1.

In essence, God’s decree is His sovereign will and plan for the world. It encompasses everything from the smallest details of our lives to the grand scheme of history. It is important to note that God’s decree is not arbitrary or capricious, but rather it is grounded in His perfect wisdom and love

 

[Iconoclast]

God Ordains Whatsoever Comes to Pass, Including Your Suffering​

LAST UPDATED ON: FEBRUARY 26, 2019 AT 1:59 PM
FEBRUARY 26, 2019 BY GRAYSON GILBERT

34 COMMENTS



A while back, I wrote a post titled: God’s Will For Your Life Is That You Would Suffer. The heart of the piece dealt with three aspects of the Will of God and built a theology showing that indeed, God does will that we would suffer. These aforementioned aspects included God’s Decretive Will (His decreed or sovereign will), His Preceptive Will (His revealed will in the Scriptures), and God’s Permissive Will (His allowance of evil, and so forth). In the piece itself, I demonstrated that it is the case, but not necessarily how and why. Stemming from this post, a dear friend asked a good question: When God sovereignly ordains something against His moral will via His permissive will, why would I say, in effect, He desires this to happen? Why would He desire our suffering?

In essence, the logic didn’t quite make sense to see that God would actively cause something to come to pass that violates His revealed will. This is a similar question to the Arminian’s, save the large difference in taking it a step further to ask how such a thing is morally good. For our purposes, this touches heavily on His permissive will – so I want to take some time to explain this more clearly and also provide answers as to why God would desire something, like suffering at the hands of persecutors, yet simultaneously ordain the persecutor to rise against His people. I use suffering as an example because it was the topic of the previous post, as well as the context the question came forth from.
I believe one of the ways we tend to get lost in this is by framing things purely in terms of His “allowing” these things to happen. By virtue of the fact that He has a sovereign will that He exercises freely, He actively brings all things that come to pass. The idea behind this is that God, in exercising His right over all things to do with them as He pleases, does so in utter perfection. In that, God is not passive, but active. It is not enough to say God merely permits the evils of this world to happen (consider Job 1:8). We must be consistent in acknowledging that all things come from His hand – He ordains whatsoever comes to pass and in so doing, He desires it to happen (Pro. 16:33; Eph. 1:11).
Naturally, when you raise such a proposition, the problem of evil comes up (i.e. how can God actively ordain all things, such as for sin to come into the world, and yet be without fault?). Most plainly stated: when God handles anything, it is by virtue of His being, not evil or wicked. He is the fountainhead of all goodness, indeed, the very source of our understanding of good. What then flows from His character, being, and deeds, is utterly and wholly good. The inherit problem in this is not that I have said He is good, but that many cannot reconcile how all His deeds can be good, if it is said that such deeds are perceived as evil in the human mind. I believe the misconception of our Arminian friends in this is that God is inadvertently defined in terms of perceived goodness, rather than actual goodness being defined in terms of God.
God is good, therefore, goodness bears qualitative likeness to God’s own being and flows from his essence. The clearest place one sees this is in His creative genius in Genesis 1-2, and it is no small wonder why the very first words of the Bible set up this portrait for the Christian. Straight away, the Scriptures propose the existence of God, demonstrate His complete mastery over all things by virtue of the fact that He speaks them into existence, and then displays all of His works to be good. In each instance of Creation, God brings something into existence, shapes it for His purposes, and then calls it good. When He has completed His work, He steps back, delights in it, and declares it all to be very good.
The ultimate proposition of the Scriptures then is that whatever God does, it is good. This should be an uncontroversial statement for those who claim Christ. What we need to do then is turn the corner, and simply see that God does many things that don’t align with our initial perception. This does not then flip the former notion of God’s goodness on its head, but rather, reveals a deficiency in our own minds in comprehending His goodness in and through such things. Yet what I would propose here is that the deficiency is not only in the inadvertent defining of God in terms of perceived goodness. It is likewise a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of sin.
We tend to define sin in terms of a tangible thing. However, sin is not a substance, but rather a state of being that falls short of the standard of God. Therefore, nothing God does can be intrinsically sinful or short of that standard. Not one act from the hand of the Creator and Sustainer can be said to fall short of His own standard – He’s the very source of the standard! This is precisely why we see God bearing attributes, which in humanity, quickly lead one into all sorts of gross misconduct. The fundamental difference, again, is that God exercises these things in perfect fashion, in accordance with His will or desire.

 

[Iconoclast]

The Decree of God​

God’s decree is his eternal plan, whereby, according to his decretive will and for his glory, he foreordained everything that comes to pass.

8 Characteristics​

The following list features the major characteristics of the decree of God:1

1. Single: “the counsel of his will” (Eph. 1:11)
2. Comprehensive: “works all things” (Eph. 1:11), including the ordination of the good actions of people (Eph. 2:10) as well as sinful acts (Prov. 16:4; Acts 2:23; 4:27–28), events that are contingent from a human perspective (Gen. 45:8; 50:20; Prov. 16:33), the means and ends of acts (Ps. 119:89–91; Eph. 1:4; 2 Thess. 2:13), and the length (Job 14:5; Ps. 39:4) and place of a person’s life (Acts 17:26)2
3. Unconditional and not based on outside influences: “according to the counsel of his will” (Eph. 1:11; see also Acts 2:23; Rom. 8:29–30; Eph. 2:8; 1 Pet. 1:2)
4. Eternal: “who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began” (2 Tim. 1:9; see also Eph. 1:4)
5. Effectual: “declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose’” (Isa. 46:10; see also Ps. 33:11; Prov. 19:21)
6. Immutable: “he is unchangeable, and who can turn him back?” (Job 23:13–14; see also Ps. 33:11; Isa. 14:24; 46:10; Acts 2:23)
7. Ordaining sin and controlling its effects: “God gave them up . . .” (Rom. 1:24, 26, 28; see also Pss. 78:29; 106:15; Acts 14:16; 17:30; Rom. 3:25)
8. Purpose of the decree: to manifest and bring praise to God’s glory (Rom. 11:33–36; Eph. 1:6, 12, 14; Rev. 4:11)

8 Characteristics of the Decree of God

God’s decree is his eternal plan, whereby, according to his decretive will and for his glory, he foreordained everything that comes to pass.

www.crossway.org

 

[Iconoclast]

From John Samson​

God Ordains ‘Whatsoever Comes to Pass’​

Posted on June 22, 2017
Do you believe that God ordains whatsoever comes to pass? In this brief clip from his teaching series Chosen By God, R.C. Sproul explains how this question distinguishes between atheists and theists.

Transcript
The third chapter the Westminster Confession begins with these words: “God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and immutably—that is without possibility of changing it—God did freely and immutably ordain whatsoever comes to pass…” semicolon.
Let me take a breath there at the point of the semicolon. “God from all eternity according to his own holy and wise counsel did freely and immutably ordained or foreordain whatsoever comes to pass…” I paused at that point in the seminary classroom, and I said to my students, “how many of you believe that statement?”
You have to understand this was a Presbyterian seminary, so these fellows were pretty well steeped in the Augustinian tradition.
And I got like a 70% vote there, that large number believed it. I said, “okay, how many of you don’t believe that statement?”
And 30 or so hands went in the air.
And I said, “fine. Now let me ask another question.” I said, “without fear of recriminations, nobody’s going to jump all over you; we just would like to know. Feel free to state your position. How many of you would call yourselves atheists?”
And nobody put their hand up, and I went into my Lieutenant Columbo routine. “There’s just one thing here I can’t understand,” I said.
And looked at those thirty who had raised their hand. I said, “do you mind if I ask you a personal question?”
I said, “I can’t figure out why those of you who raised your hand saying you did not believe this statement didn’t raise your hand when I asked if you were atheists.”
And they looked at me with a mixture of puzzlement, with the same kind of looks I’m seeing in your eyes here today.
I was saying because if you don’t believe this statement, you understand that fundamentally at the bottom line you’re an atheist. And that was about the most outrageous thing they ever heard in their lives.
I said, “well, let’s understand that this statement that I’ve just read that ‘God has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass’ is not a statement that is unique to Calvinism or to Presbyterianism. It doesn’t distinguish the Reformed tradition from other traditions. It doesn’t even distinguish Christians from Jews or from Muslims. This statement here distinguishes theists from atheists. And they were still puzzled as I continued this harangue. And so don’t you see that if there’s anything that happens in this world outside the foreordination of God—that if there’s no sense in which God is ordaining whatsoever comes to pass—then at whatever point something happens outside the foreordination of God it is, therefore, happening outside of the sovereignty of God.
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[Iconoclast]

What Does Decree Mean? A Biblical Definition of Decree​

LAST UPDATED ON: AUGUST 14, 2015 AT 10:17 AM
AUGUST 14, 2015 BY JACK WELLMAN

2 COMMENTS

What does the Bible mean by “decree?” How is it used in the Bible and what is the biblical definition of decree?

A Secular Definition of Decree​

To make a decree is to have an authoritative order having the force of law. It could be the judgment of a court of equity as well as being an official order, edict, or decision, as that of a church, government, court, or by God and is something that is or seems to be foreordained and is unbreakable. Decrees are typically enforced and if not upheld, those who break decrees are punished and there could be legal consequences with the severity of the punishment equal to that of the level of whatever the decree prohibits. One example of a decree is that in most nations, the citizens have to pay taxes and this is completely compulsory.

A Governmental Decree​

Governments often declare decrees that are administered for the entire population where the government has the authority to create them and order them as well as enforce them and for those who refuse to obey those decrees, they are subject to the judgments of the governmental authorities. For example, in ancient Judea “a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered” (Luke 2:1). This decree commanded by Caesar Augustus was mandatory and was like a census for the purposes of taxing the population. The local citizens had to return to their place of origin or birth so that taxes could be levied and the number of citizens could rightly be ascertained. The Roman government didn’t take lightly to anyone refusing to follow the decrees of Caesar. This follows what Solomon wrote about God that “By me kings reign, and rulers decree what is just” (Prov 8:15).

God’s Decree​

God has been working for thousands of years on His plan or decree of redemption for mankind, particularly those who submit to God in repentance and faith. This has been hidden for thousands of years but became crystal clear at the cross of Christ where He shed His blood for the forgiveness of sins. In writing about this mystery, Paul declared “Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory” (1st Cor 2:6-8). This is why Jesus said “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do” (Luke 23:24). They didn’t know what they were actually doing and so if Christ hadn’t ask the Father to forgive them for this great sin done in ignorance, they could not have been forgiven for it. Ignorance is no excuse for sin.

Disaster Decreed​

God Himself declares or gives Jeremiah this decree for the disobedient nation of Israel and of Judah “The Lord of hosts, who planted you, has decreed disaster against you, because of the evil that the house of Israel and the house of Judah have done, provoking me to anger by making offerings to Baal” (Jer 11:17). We might think this is harsh but love is equal to discipline for every son and daughter God loves He also disciples (Prov 3:12; Heb 12:6). The opposite of love is not hate; it is indifference. This is why the psalmist wrote “Your decrees are very trustworthy; holiness befits your house, O Lord, forevermore” (Psalm 93:5) and “he established them forever and ever; he gave a decree, and it shall not pass away” (Psalm 148:6). If God punished the nations of Israel and Judah for their disobedience, what makes us think that He won’t do the same for any nation that turns its back on God?

Unrighteous Decrees​

God knows the tendencies of the human heart and so did Paul in writing “Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them” (Rom 1:32). This shows that those who sin not only love their sin but the give their hearty approval of those who do. God says of such people “Woe to those who decree iniquitous decrees, and the writers who keep writing oppression, to turn aside the needy from justice and to rob the poor of my people of their right, that widows may be their spoil, and that they may make the fatherless their prey” (Isaiah 10:1-2). That happened in ancient Israel and it is still happening today around the world but God has said “This is the wicked man’s portion from God, the heritage decreed for him by God” (Job 20:29).

Conclusion​

God has decreed that through Jesus Christ we can be forgiven of our sins and be declared righteous in His sight (2nd Cor 5:21) if we repent and trust in the only name given to us where we can be saved (Acts 4:12). Otherwise, God has also decreed disaster for those who refuse to humble themselves and that day of reckoning is coming, either after the person dies (Heb 9:27) or when Christ returns (Rev 20:12-15), and there is nothing you can do about it or to change it for God declares “for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose’” (Isaiah 46:9-10).

Article by Jack Wellman​

Jack Wellman is Pastor of the Mulvane Brethren church in Mulvane Kansas. Jack is also the Senior Writer at What Christians Want To Know whose mission is to equip, encourage, and energize Christians and to address questions about the believer’s daily walk with God and the Bible. You can follow Jack on Google Plus or check out his book Blind Chance or Intelligent Design available on Amazon.

 

[Iconoclast]

https://www.wrs.edu/assets/docs/Courses/Theology_2/Chapter_7--Gods_Decrees_and_Providence.pdf

It is important to realize that while God is sovereign over all events, even sinful events, the actual sin arises in the heart of the free moral creature. God cannot sin, nor can he tempt his creatures to sin (Jas 1:13-15). Theologians distinguish two wills in God: his decretive will, by which he has foreordained whatever comes to pass, and his preceptive will, in which he states the laws he commands us to keep. These sometimes are called God’s “revealed will” vs. his “secret will.”Also very good is the classic work by Francis Turretin, Institutes of Elenctic Theology, Topic 3, Question 15: “May the will be properly distinguished into the will of decree and of precept, good purpose (eudokias) and good pleasure (euarestias), signified, secret and revealed? We affirm.” (1:220-225)Some assert that God is “responsible” for evil events, either moral or natural, since he ordains all these events. This is inaccurate, since responsibility entails accountability to a superior. God has no superior, hence he is accountable to no one. It is imprecise to say that God is responsible for anything, as though there were a higher moral standard to which he must conform (or as though he must conform to our own sense of morality). God is good, and he defines that goodness by his own nature and will. This point is forcefully made by Gordon H. Clark, Religion, Reason and Revelation (1961), ch. 5, “God and Evil” (republished separately in 1996 by the Trinity Foundation under the title “God and Evil: The Problem Solved”

 

[Iconoclast]

ibid;
Means of God’s providenceGod is absolute in his sovereignty. He does not depend on any actions of his creatures in order to determine what he will do. His will is not conditional.On the other hand, God does act through means. The Confession speaks of “the liberty or contingency of second causes” (3:1), and that his decrees can “fall out” from second causes “either necessarily, freely, or contingently” (5:2). That is to say, events he has determined may be brought about by what we would call “ordinary means” (1:7). There are various levels of these means:
Necessarily—the event follows as a matter of necessary consequence or law. A rock falls because of gravity. Jonah’s vine dies because the worm attacked it. Rains fall because of the ongoing water cycle.

Freely—the event follows as a matter of free choice under a given set of circumstances. Paul’s thorn in the flesh results in his being humble before God and fellow Christians (a less spiritual person might react to the same circumstance in a totally different way). Pharaoh decides to break his word to Moses (an honest pharaoh would have kept his promise; remember that even though God hardened his heart, Pharaoh acted freely). During the same evangelistic meeting some are converted and others are not; different children from the same family often make opposite moral choices.

Contingently—the event depends upon another event before it can occur. Paul’s travel plans depend on the absence of certain obstacles (e.g., Jews plotting to kill him, prevention by the Holy Spirit, stormy season at sea). All “if . . . then” statements in the Bible (including covenant formulations) point to the results as being contingent events, depending upon the actions of second causes

 

[Hopeful 2]

You do not understand God's holiness to think you are sinless.

As God commands that we be as holy as He is, it behooves us to comply.
I Peter 1:15-16..."But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy."
I hope you don't have a problem with that.

You men are badly deceived and do not understand salvation properly. We are twice instructed to mortify sin, because it was still there.

You have cited Rom 8:13..."For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."
It is the deeds of the body that must be killed...(or in the case of converts, kept dead.)
Paul writes an A-B choice, and their outcomes.
Live after the flesh, and die.
Kill the deeds of the flesh, and live.
If, as you say, sin is still there, the disobedient will die a second death.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I doubt anyone who says what you do knows the Lord and his word.

It seems odd to me that you would see the obedient as ignorant of God's word.
Isn't it the sinner who acts as though he is ignorant of God's commandments ?
Where does God, Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, or James, ever say "keep on sinning" ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

You're conflating salvation, justification, sancification and spiritual maturity.

No, just the onset of justification and sanctification.
They both happen at the application of the blood of the sacrificial Lamb.
Salvation, or not, will occur on the day of judgement.
Spiritual maturity is something you have invented.
Though all men grow in grace and knowledge, what can measure maturity ?

As I said, for some people the seed of gospel sprout up immediately, but no one bears fruit immediately;

As John writes in 1 John 3:9-10, God's seed cannot bring forth the devil's fruit.
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."
If there is no fruit, there was no conversion.
Every prayer of a just man is fruit of the seed from which he has been reborn.

also, yield varies from person to person. Your dualistic view of "saints and ain'ts" only apply to the next life where your name is either written on the Book of Life or not, but not this life.

It is the POV of John in 1 John 3:9-10.
I agree with John.

Only God gets to decide who's clean and who's unclean, not you.

Of course, but, as it is written in 1 Cor 2:15 "he that is spiritual judgeth all things..."

His conversion was the start, not the end.

Correct.
And conversion is dependent on leaving the old behind while pressing forward in something new.

Yes, and they will fail, five out of seven, including the Ephesian chruch. This is why the Lord himself declared at the end of each of the seven letters to the seven churches: "he who has an ear, let him hear!"

I agree, so which of the seven will you emulate ?

This "submission" requires intentional and mindful effort, otherwise we just submit to our own autopilot mode, like everybody else.

I agree, but what does that say for the un-submissive ?
Their effort is wasted on trying to legitimize sin.

Those who walk in darkness don't believe sin exists,

I disagree.
All men are born with a conscience.
Proverb 4:19 sums it up for me..."The way of the wicked is as darkness:..."
Walking in darkness, and walking in sin, are synonymous.
Neither walk in God, who is the light. (1 John 1:5)

we're all born sinless,

I agree.

it's the fault of the world, the society or our own parents. A true follower of Christ is highly aware of their sin when being scrutizied in the light of Christ.

If he is a sinner it is because he is not following Christ.
Follow Christ and quit sinning !

Paul spoke of his struggle in Rom. 7, why did he if he were supposedly in fellowship with God and washed of all sins by the blood? Why was he still a wretched man?

The "troubles" Paul wrote of in Rom 7 were from his pre-conversion days living unsuccessfully trying to keep the law.
This is obvious from verse 5..."For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.".
And concluded in Rom 7:25..."I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; "
He isn't in the "flesh" anymore !
Rom 8 makes the before and after distinction even clearer !

 

[Hopeful 2]

"What is truth?" - Pontius Pilate.

Truth is the unassailable.
The truth that can make you free is this...you can live without sinning !

You know, there's a difference between "ignore" and "neglect". "Ignore" is intentional, "neglect" is unintentional as a result of forgetfulness, distraction or fear. Therefore if you neglect somebody or something, you wouldn't have known it at the moment.

As a sin requires lust, enticement, temptation, and conception, (James 1:14-15), your definition of neglect is not sinful.
It may have a physical price to pay though.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is part of how I see you just do not know yet.

Judas was an example, you do not grasp it......he was not made to sin

Here again you brush over the verse that answers your question. You do not read carefully. What was planned was that wicked men were used to sin against Jesus but it accomplished God's design.

I said that all Christians believe that the crucifixion was planned/predestinated/decreed/ordained - use the word you like best.

I said that it's useless to speak of the sacrifice of Jesus because it was planned from before the beginning of time.

This leaves nothing to discuss.

 

[GodsGrace]

The difference between God ordaining what comes to pass and God making a decree about what happens is a subtle one. According to the Westminster Confession, God has “freely and immutably ordained whatsoever comes to pass” 1. This means that everything that happens in the world is a result of God’s sovereign will and plan.

On the other hand, making a decree about what happens is more like a command or an order. When God makes a decree, He is issuing a directive or a proclamation about what should happen 2. For example, when God decreed that the Israelites should observe the Sabbath, He was giving them a commandment to follow 3.

In essence, both concepts are related to God’s sovereignty and control over the world. However, ordaining what comes to pass is more about God’s overarching plan for the world, while making a decree is more about specific commands or directives that God gives to His people.

I hope this helps clarify the difference between these two concepts.

The answer is found in the fact that although God foreordains whatsoever comes to pass, he causes the bringing of those things to pass in widely different ways. He does not cause the bringing to pass of the actions of personal beings in the same way as the way in which he causes the bringing to pass of events in the physical world.

In essence, God ordains things by having a plan for the world and allowing events to unfold according to His will. However, He also gives humans the freedom to make choices and decisions that can affect the course of history.

I think you're speaking to me Jason.

No. I don't see any difference in the above.

If God decrees something, ordains something, or predestines something - IT WILL COME TO PASS.

It's God we're speaking of, right?
The same God that is so sovereign that He couldn't even give humans free will, according to the reformed.
(because that would mean God was following what WE wanted instead of what HE wants. Strange ideas).

 

[Iconoclast]

As God commands that we be as holy as He is, it behooves us to comply.
I Peter 1:15-16..."But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy."
I hope you don't have a problem with that.

You have cited Rom 8:13..."For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."
It is the deeds of the body that must be killed...(or in the case of converts, kept dead.)
Paul writes an A-B choice, and their outcomes.
Live after the flesh, and die.
Kill the deeds of the flesh, and live.
If, as you say, sin is still there, the disobedient will die a second death.

So, not only do you claim sinless perfection, but a gospel of works....

 

[Iconoclast]

I said that all Christians believe that the crucifixion was planned/predestinated/decreed/ordained - use the word you like best.

I said that it's useless to speak of the sacrifice of Jesus because it was planned from before the beginning of time.

This leaves nothing to discuss.

Who crucified Jesus?
Was it sinful people?
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

23 Him,
being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God,
ye have taken,
and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

 

[Iconoclast]

I said that all Christians believe that the crucifixion was planned/predestinated/decreed/ordained - use the word you like best

The words are not all the same. If you do not see that, you will never understand.

.

I said that it's useless to speak of the sacrifice of Jesus because it was planned from before the beginning of time.

This leaves nothing to discuss.

This why you do not learn.

 

[Iconoclast]

No, just the onset of justification and sanctification.
They both happen at the application of the blood of the sacrificial Lamb.
Salvation, or not, will occur on the day of judgement.
Spiritual maturity is something you have invented.
Though all men grow in grace and knowledge, what can measure maturity ?

As John writes in 1 John 3:9-10, God's seed cannot bring forth the devil's fruit.
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."
If there is no fruit, there was no conversion.
Every prayer of a just man is fruit of the seed from which he has been reborn.

It is the POV of John in 1 John 3:9-10.
I agree with John.

you are way of, the word for commit is to practice.

Of course, but, as it is written in 1 Cor 2:15 "he that is spiritual judgeth all things..."

Correct.
And conversion is dependent on leaving the old behind while pressing forward in something new.

I agree, so which of the seven will you emulate ?

I agree, but what does that say for the un-submissive ?
Their effort is wasted on trying to legitimize sin.

I disagree.
All men are born with a conscience.
Proverb 4:19 sums it up for me..."The way of the wicked is as darkness:..."
Walking in darkness, and walking in sin, are synonymous.
Neither walk in God, who is the light. (1 John 1:5)

I agree.

If he is a sinner it is because he is not following Christ.
Follow Christ and quit sinning !

The "troubles" Paul wrote of in Rom 7 were from his pre-conversion days living unsuccessfully trying to keep the law.
This is obvious from verse 5..."For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.".
And concluded in Rom 7:25..."I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; "
He isn't in the "flesh" anymore !
Rom 8 makes the before and after distinction even clearer !

You have no understanding of romans 7 or 8

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

No, just the onset of justification and sanctification.
They both happen at the application of the blood of the sacrificial Lamb.

No they're not. You're conflating those two.

Spiritual maturity is something you have invented.
Though all men grow in grace and knowledge, what can measure maturity ?

Nope, it's your ignorance, not my invention. For it is written:

For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. (Heb. 5:12-14)

As John writes in 1 John 3:9-10, God's seed cannot bring forth the devil's fruit.
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."
If there is no fruit, there was no conversion.
Every prayer of a just man is fruit of the seed from which he has been reborn.

It is the POV of John in 1 John 3:9-10.
I agree with John.

And I agree with the Lord himself:

"he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty." (Matt. 13:23)

Of course, but, as it is written in 1 Cor 2:15 "he that is spiritual judgeth all things..."

"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. " (Matt. 7:1-2)

Correct.
And conversion is dependent on leaving the old behind while pressing forward in something new.

And being consistent, no backsliding like Peter or the original receivers of the Hebrew letter.

I agree, but what does that say for the un-submissive ?
Their effort is wasted on trying to legitimize sin.

That effort I talked about is no other than our free will. The problem with the teaching of free will is not free will itself, but free will to do WHAT. As Thomas Jefferson said, "rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God." We are given a free will to resist tyrants and serve God, not resist God and serve tyrants.

I disagree.
All men are born with a conscience.
Proverb 4:19 sums it up for me..."The way of the wicked is as darkness:..."
Walking in darkness, and walking in sin, are synonymous.
Neither walk in God, who is the light. (1 John 1:5)

I agree.

Then do you disagree or agree? Which one is it? Conscience alone is not sufficient. Paul, before his conversion, as Saul of Tartus brutally persecuted early Christians with good conscience, believing he was purging evildoers for God.

If he is a sinner it is because he is not following Christ.
Follow Christ and quit sinning !

You're deceiving yourself.

The "troubles" Paul wrote of in Rom 7 were from his pre-conversion days living unsuccessfully trying to keep the law.
This is obvious from verse 5..."For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.".
And concluded in Rom 7:25..."I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; "
He isn't in the "flesh" anymore !
Rom 8 makes the before and after distinction even clearer !

I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? (Rom. 7:18-24)

Paul's struggle therein was PRESENT, not a thing of the past, deliverance was future. Go back to school and learn some grammar, man. English is not my mother tongue, and I know this better than you.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Truth is the unassailable.
The truth that can make you free is this...you can live without sinning !

As a sin requires lust, enticement, temptation, and conception, (James 1:14-15), your definition of neglect is not sinful.
It may have a physical price to pay though.

You're accusing me what you're guilty of - legitimizing and justifying sin.

 

[Hopeful 2]

So, not only do you claim sinless perfection,

Absolutely...

but a gospel of works....

The gospel is this..."Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" (1 Cor 15:1-4)
If man won't obey God, the gospel can't help them.

Are you offering a gospel of disobedience ?
If so, you aren't the first.

Do you have the will to please God ?