Water Baptism, is that ENOUGH?

[Pogo]

Hello, MarkT -

You posted...

It's not just water. You have to confess your sins. There are some churches that do things that are very good. I would say to my Protestant brothers that they should go to a Catholic church and confess their sins. Hey. We're all brothers. I'm sure my Catholic brothers would approve this message.

I agree!

Baptism, as I view things, is just one of the five steps required of one to become a Christian.

One must - 1) Hear, understand, the Truth preached, 2) Believe that Jesus is the one, true, living Son, of Jehovah, the one, true, living God, 3) Confess this belief publicly, 4) Publicly repent of their past sins, and then 5) Be baptized, by total immersion, in water.

BTW - If you truly feel this way, how can you tolerate the practice of infant baptism? I've yet to see an infant grasp the Truth of a sermon, or confess their sins.

May God bless us all,

Pogo

 

[Imagican]

How does one ACCEPT Christ into their hearts? Will a simple act of emersion PLACE Christ into the heart of one that performs such a RITUAL? if so, then WORKS ARE able to 'save' one.

Folks, FIRST comes HEARING, then BELIEF, and then FAITH in that 'belief'. NO amount of ritual whether it be Baptism or communion, or ANY act of WORKS that is able to BEGIN these FIRST THREE

That the commision is that Christ commanded that the APOSTLES go out and Baptize offers NOTHING so far as indication that this is a commandment to those that were NOT apostles. And it most certainly offers NOTHING so far as commandment towards those that have NOT been Baptized. This is NOT a command to BE Baptized but to BAPTISE in the name of.....

Beware of what you CHOOSE to believe that is NOT offered through scripture or Spirit. And beware of what you ALLOW 'others' to teach you to believe.

MEC

 

[Pogo]

Imagician -

As I look back at the original post of this thread, I see that I really just posted my thoughts on the act of baptism itself and never gave a thought to the actual question posed.

So...I see, as I've already posted, that the act of being submerged/immersed, in water, as being the correct example of baptism as commanded in the scriptures.

Now...as to the question of whether baptism is enough?

Let me say that I see baptism as being the final step, of the five steps, required by the scriptures, for one to become an obedient Christian.

In regards to being able to change the state of a person from an 'alien sinner' to that of an obedient Christian...YES...baptism IS enough to do that!

But, if the question is...is baptism enough to KEEP one an obedient Christian, or to guarantee one's eternal salvation...then...NO...baptism is NOT enough to accomplish that!

Imagician, you raise some good points in your most recent post. I'll attempt a response later.

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[dadof10]

Antecdotal evidence is not "one better". I'm sorry to hear that you ran into a bad priest. That happens, but it is FAR from the norm.

Yeah, I have heard that quite a few times. Mainly to excuse the thousands of priests who sexually molest boys, particularly in the USA, although not exclusively. We have our fair share of them here.

Do you attend church services anywhere? Do you think your pastor commits sin? If so, does that mean that your church condones sin?

 

[MarkT]

BTW - If you truly feel this way, how can you tolerate the practice of infant baptism? I've yet to see an infant grasp the Truth of a sermon, or confess their sins.

Hi Pogo

Well, the water is an appeal to God for forgiveness. Now whether the appeal is made before or after we sin, it is still an appeal for forgiveness. Let's say the infant is baptised. An appeal is made. Then later on as an adult, the man confesses his sins. An appeal was already made. When God hears the confession, he forgives the man.

 

[Imagican]

BTW - If you truly feel this way, how can you tolerate the practice of infant baptism? I've yet to see an infant grasp the Truth of a sermon, or confess their sins.

Hi Pogo

Well, the water is an appeal to God for forgiveness. Now whether the appeal is made before or after we sin, it is still an appeal for forgiveness. Let's say the infant is baptised. An appeal is made. Then later on as an adult, the man confesses his sins. An appeal was already made. When God hears the confession, he forgives the man.

So Mark, is this a supposition that one can appeal FOR another. That I could MAKE that appeal for 'someone ELSE'?

Now I am well aware that we are able to pray for others. That does NOT mean that our prayers will have ANY effect whatsoever so far as the Salvation of ANOTHER. But what you have offered is an indication that WE are able to appeal FOR others in that 'by Baptising an infant' WE have made an appeal FOR them. Is this Biblical and if so, where would I find information concerning such? I'm not asking WHAT you 'believe' for that is of no consequence IF it is NOT scritpurally offered even in INDICATED words. So please, enlighten me, if it IS scriptural, then guide me to where I would find such an offering.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[dadof10]

I think what Francis is saying is that if you want to find out how important Scripture is to the Catholic Church, (the Magisterum) you should go to official Catholic sources,

[quote:a79c4]I'm not asking you to consult the Magisterium for "the truth", but to find out what the Catholic Church actually teaches.

In the first quote you said that the catholic chhurch is the magisterum. Then you asked me not to consult the magisterium, I should consult the catholic church.

If the catholic church is the magisterium, then consulting them is consulting the catholic church.[/quote:a79c4]

Right. Consulting the Magisterium and consulting official Catholic teaching are the same thing. Let me try one more time:

If a person wants to find out what a church teaches, shouldn't that person consult the official documents of that church? Isn't that reasonable?

When discussing doctrine it does no good to cite the Magisterium or official Catholic teaching to a non or anti-Catholic because you won't accept it as authoritative. That's why I put quotation marks around the words "the truth". I mean your idea of what the truth is.

Here is what I'm trying to say, with no American literary devices:

I only ask you to consult the official teaching of the Catholic Church (the Magisterium) to discern what the Catholic Church teaches. An RE teacher, a book by Lorraine Boettner or Dave Hunt, a friend , your Pastor; all these are not official Catholic sources and as such could contain some true Catholic teaching, but also (especially in the case of the anti-Catholic books) much error.

If you are going to disagree with Catholic doctrine, you should at least know what true Catholic doctrine is. Does this sound reasonable?

 

[dadof10]

I will make it clear in case you have not worked it out. I don't support catholic doctrine, I don't support Baptist doctrine, I don't support Protestant doctrine as I don't need to because all I need to live a life of faith is recorded in scripture. If anything, no matter who proposes it is not backed up by scripture and baptism in the trinitarian names is not because there is only one verse in total and no doctrine is ever based on one verse of scripture and too many of the RC doctrines are not based on any scripture as are some protestant ones, so you can argue all you want and it will fall on deaf ears unless the scriptures support you in its overal revelation.

Great. Another rant. If all doctine needs to be backed up by Scripture, then so does the doctrine of Sola-Scriptura, right? Chapter and verse, please.

If you want another example. priests are not a NT revelation. The priesthood of all believers is so you don't need a clergy class that dresses up like a woman and tells everyone what they can do.

Very mature. I see you are putting all those degrees to good use. I'm sure your professors would be proud.

 

[MarkT]

Imagican

So Mark, is this a supposition that one can appeal FOR another. That I could MAKE that appeal for 'someone ELSE'?

Now I am well aware that we are able to pray for others. That does NOT mean that our prayers will have ANY effect whatsoever so far as the Salvation of ANOTHER. But what you have offered is an indication that WE are able to appeal FOR others in that 'by Baptising an infant' WE have made an appeal FOR them. Is this Biblical and if so, where would I find information concerning such? I'm not asking WHAT you 'believe' for that is of no consequence IF it is NOT scritpurally offered even in INDICATED words. So please, enlighten me, if it IS scriptural, then guide me to where I would find such an offering.

Strange as it may sound, I think the water is the appeal. Or we could say the appeal is by water or through water. So it is the spirit of the person being baptised who is making the appeal and not the person doing the baptising. The person doing the baptising would be a witness.

 

[dadof10]

Folks, FIRST comes HEARING, then BELIEF, and then FAITH in that 'belief'. NO amount of ritual whether it be Baptism or communion, or ANY act of WORKS that is able to BEGIN these FIRST THREE

Where does Scripture call Baptism or Communion, "works"? In fact, where in Scripture do we see the word "works" refer to anything but the Jewish ritual Law, specifically circumcision? The "works" Paul is talking about are works of the Law, as it says in Galatians. Jewish ritual Law, not acts of charity, or sacraments.

 

[Pogo]

Imagician –

You posted…

How does one ACCEPT Christ into their hearts?

As I have already posted above, I see the scriptures telling us that there are five, distinct, steps that one must observe to become a born again Christian.

When one - 1) hears the Gospel preached, and then 2) believes in their heart that Jesus is the one, true, living Son, of Jehovah, the one, true, living God – then, at this point in time, it would seem to me that one HAS, indeed, accepted Christ into their heart.

But, while this is a very necessary part of the trip, I don't see this as the end of the journey. This belief that one experiences must be followed by confessing it publicly, repentance, and finally, baptism, before one can call onself a Christian. A BELIEVER!

Is this NOT what the scriptures tell us?

Folks, FIRST comes HEARING, then BELIEF, and then FAITH in that 'belief'. NO amount of ritual whether it be Baptism or communion, or ANY act of WORKS that is able to BEGIN these FIRST THREE

Apparently, I’m the only one holding these views on this issue, which, until I see evidence to the contrary, is perfectly fine with me.

As I see it…BELIEF, once it is combined with OBEDIENCE, becomes FAITH.

You know how we always hear old adages such as, “Old so-and-so can sure “talks-the-talk, but s/he doesn’t walk-the-walk!â€Â

Isn’t this just another, kinder, way of saying that someone is a hypocrite? No??? Yes!!!

Let me use another, worldly example.

Let's say that one is driving their car on a road that is posted with a speed limit of 55 MPH. Just because one knows that the speed limit is 55 doesn't keep one from going 60 MPH, or more! One can believe what the speed limit is, and yet still violate it, becoming an outlaw.

But, it is the ones who not only believe what the posted speed limit says, but who also obey the speed limits, that will be deemed law abiding citizens, right!

Somebody PLEASE say AMEN!!!

Will a simple act of emersion PLACE Christ into the heart of one that performs such a RITUAL? if so, then WORKS ARE able to 'save' one.

I have no idea…but, I personally, DO think that at this very point in time, it does cause our name to be entered into a book in heaven. At that point we climbed out of the sea of alien sinners, and became a Christian. And, if we shall endure, obediently in our faith, heaven will be our reward.

When one presents themselves before a congregation to confess their belief (faith) and to repent for their past sins, THAT is all I have to see, to convince me that their heart is in the right place, and of their sincerity. Not that convincing me, or you, or anyone else, of anything, is required or necessary to one’s salvation!.

The scriptures talk of those who walk around believing, but not obeying. Some of them were called Pharisees.

Works ALONE will not save one! Nothing ALONE, will save one.

It takes a combination of things!

We are saved by God’s grace, through our faith in Christ, and obedience to His commands.

Faith without works is dead!

That the commision is that Christ commanded that the APOSTLES go out and Baptize offers NOTHING so far as indication that this is a commandment to those that were NOT apostles. And it most certainly offers NOTHING so far as commandment towards those that have NOT been Baptized. This is NOT a command to BE Baptized but to BAPTISE in the name of.....

I’m sorry, but I don’t know quite what to make of this statement, other than it seems self-contradictory.

Beware of what you CHOOSE to believe that is NOT offered through scripture or Spirit. And beware of what you ALLOW 'others' to teach you to believe.

I agree!

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[Imagican]

That the commision is that Christ commanded that the APOSTLES go out and Baptize offers NOTHING so far as indication that this is a commandment to those that were NOT apostles. And it most certainly offers NOTHING so far as commandment towards those that have NOT been Baptized. This is NOT a command to BE Baptized but to BAPTISE in the name of.....

I will attempt to explain further to the best of my ability:

Though many would automatically assume that the apostles being commissioned to Baptize means that ALLmust be Baptized, this is simply NOT what is offered in the commision. The commission was given TO the apostles. It was NOT a statement made TOWARDS those that would BE Baptized, but offered TO the apostles as a 'thing to do'.

I guess if you insist upon the importance of Baptism BEING crucial to Salvation, then it would be very EASY to read what you CHOOSE to believe INTO scripture. But what is offered NEVER states that one MUST be Baptized. Not ONCE that i can recall. There are statements that refer to Baptism, but not ONE that states that one MUST BE Baptized in water in order to be 'saved'. But, if you were to CHOOSE to read INTO what has been offered, then you could SURELY read the NECESSITY into scripture.

Over and over and over again the scenario of 'the man on the deserted island' has been used to PLAINLY show that there would certainly be instances where Baptism would be IMPOSSIBLE, (unless one is able to simply Baptize themselves), and that under these circumstances, Water Baptism would play NO PART whatsoever in the Salvation of an indivual.

Do you TRULY believe that God is confined by Baptism? That He is UNABLE to reveal Himself to whom, how and WHEN He chooses? And that He is able to forgive with or without Baptism. That the sybolism of 'cleansing' through water is not NEAR as important as Baptism in the Spirit? Beware of what you offer to others in respect to what MUST be done or how important WORKS of this sort truly are. For how YOU judge such is HOW you will be judged. And that judgement will certainly be conformed to and around those that you TEACH as well.

I have NOT offered that Baptism has no place in Christianity. Just that it is NOT what some would have others believe so far as importance. For God is able to conform the hearts of those that He chooses with or without it. And NO amount of water is able to cleanse those that refuse to be 'born again' in Spirit. Those that 'play the game' have little benefit from Baptism or ANY OTHER ritual. For it is NOT the outward ritual that pleases God so much as the inward change that becomes manifest when one IS truly 'born of The Spirit'.

Can water accomplish 'rebirth'? Not that I am aware of. Can it be an outward sign and an open commitment and witness to others? Certainly. But even these cannot be guaranteed simply by being Baptized in water. For I can assure everyone reading these words that there WILL be and HAVE been MANY MANY MANY that receive waterBaptism that will NOT be 'saved'. PROOF? Let us read on these words:

Matt 7:1:

20] Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
[24] Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
[25] And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
[26] And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
[27] And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Now I ask: As IMPORTANT as the churches have MADE Baptism, is there any doubt that those mentioned above as being the 'many will say to me in that day' are ones that would 'consider themselves Christians'? That these mentioned would have INDEED BEEN Baptized? And if this is the case, then this is your PROOF as to 'just how important water Batptism IS'.

I know, I know; this guy doesn't BELIEVE what our churches have 'taught us'. You're RIGHT. For the scriptures do NOT bear out the teachings offered through the churches as concerns Baptism. Important? Can be. But exclusively? NO WAY. For we will be judged by what's in our hearts and NOT by what we have DONE; but WHY we DID IT. For it IS that which is in the 'heart' that manifests itself in our actions. So, playing the game can be 'very dangerous' indeed. For it is utter deception of one's neighbors and abhorant to God. For one CANNOT deceive Our Father.

Paul even mentioned that he was GLAD that He had only Baptized a couple of specific people in one of his letters. The reason? Those that he spoke to were quibbling over WHO Baptized them as if some that Baptized were greater than others. Strife over something as rudimentary as Baptism and this was NOT pleasing to Paul or God. For it is NOT the 'dunking in water' that pleases our Father, it is the circumcision that we allow to take place in OUR HEARTS that is able to bring us TO Him. And anyone that doesn't understand this is simply attempting to follow the teachings of men instead of LISTENING to the Spirit that IS able to offer the truth that 'sets us free'.

I have pretty much offered what is able to be offered in this thread. Once again, it is apparent that many would choose to follow men rather than God through Christ and His apostles. And for this reason, many would refute WHATEVER is offered concerning Baptism for the sake of what they have CHOSEN to believe.

Water Baptism, is it ENOUGH? No WAY, my friends. And the REASON that I opened this thread was to dispell any 'false beliefs' that many may have concerning what the churches TEACH. And ONE of the biggest PARTS of the reasoning behind their 'teachings' is an attempt at Baptizing in THEIR NAME. For each have their own specific rituals concerning the act itself. JUST like what concerned Paul in his writtings concerning Baptism, so too are there the same strifes TODAY concerning it.

So, drag it around and around and you'll STILL end up right back where we started from. And the answer is as obvious as can be. And even those that RECOGNIZE the answer would STILL insist upon arguing against what they ALREADY know in their hearts.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Pogo]

Ohhhhhhh...MEC!

I am simply stuuuuuunnnnnnned!

WOW!!!

You've been so...dead on...so right...on so many things!

I realize that I'm WAY more conservative than you in several areas...but...NOW!!!

What a position!!!

Usually, I plow all the way through a thread before offering a comment. But, this time, after two pages, I threw my two cents in.

I need to take a long walk...I need to ponder on this!

Later.

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[Pogo]

Ah, Imagican –

The answers to this dilemma was right at the ends of my finger tips!

Each passage, relating to baptism, carries it's own answer to you position.

It's just as the lepers who washed in the Jordan River, the water wasn't magic, it was the obedience to the command, the water was symbolic, as it is in baptism.

Let’s examine a few of the scriptures.

John 3:5 KJV
(5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus tells Nicodemas that unless man is born of water and of the Spirit…

WATER IS ESSENTIAL FOR BAPTISM!!!

Acts 22:16 KJV
(16) And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Paul was asked, “What are you waiting for, get up, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.â€Â

“BE BAPTIZED.†WORK WAS REQUIRED ON PAUL’S PART!

WATER IS ESSENTIAL FOR BAPTISM!!!

Matthew 28:19-20 CEV
(19) Go to the people of all nations and make them my disciples. Baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,
(20) and teach them to do everything I have told you. I will be with you always, even until the end of the world.

“…BAPTIZE (IMMERSE/SUBMERGE) THEM…†WATER IS ESSENTIAL FOR BAPTISM

“…MAKE THEM MY DISCIPLES…TEACH THEM TO DO EVERYTHING I HAVE TOLD YOU.â€Â

Verse 20, above, contradicts your position on verse 19!

THIS HAS TO MEAN, NOT ONLY TO BAPTIZE (IMMERSE/SUBMERGE) EVERYONE IN WATER, BUT, ALSO, TO TEACH EVERYONE TO BAPTISE OTHERS AS WELL!!!

Imagician, this is SO simple!!!

Baptism in water is repeated over, and over, and over!!! If we ignore the scriptures, it is to our own peril!

You asked -

Do you TRULY believe that God is confined by Baptism?

No, I don't. I don't think that anything confines God!

It is we who are confined by the commands God has put in place. He is the one who has placed His hoops wherever He desired. It is our job to jump through them!

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[marksman]

Right. Consulting the Magisterium and consulting official Catholic teaching are the same thing. Let me try one more time:

Then why are you asking me not to consult the magesterium?

 

[marksman]

If you are going to disagree with Catholic doctrine, you should at least know what true Catholic doctrine is. Does this sound reasonable?

You had better tell that to all my catholic workmates as according to you they don't know what they are talking about. Obviously the church is not very good at teaching their devotees.

 

[marksman]

Great. Another rant. If all doctine needs to be backed up by Scripture, then so does the doctrine of Sola-Scriptura, right? Chapter and verse, please.

I notice that you didn't produce any scripture to refute what I said. Probably why you played the man not the ball. The fact that you called the explanation of my position a "rant" indicates that you cannot mount a reasonable debate.

 

[marksman]

Very mature. I see you are putting all those degrees to good use. I'm sure your professors would be proud.

I was taught that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Once again you have not produced one scripture to counteract what I have said. My teenage debating team would leave you for dead.

 

[Imagican]

1 Corinthians 1:

[11] For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
[12] Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
[13] Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
[14] I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
[15] Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
[16] And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
[17] For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
[18] For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
[19] For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
[20] Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
[21] For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
[22] For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
[23] But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
[24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Pogo, my brother,

A few questions and then perhaps you will have a 'better' understanding of what i have attempted to offer.

Did David Koresh Baptize in the name of Christ? How about Jim Jones? And were these that were Baptized by the likes of these receive ANYTHING of significance in their Baptism? Think about this carefully and perhaps you will SEE that the 'water' most likely had LITTLE effect on those that were following 'false prophets'. If anything, these were most likely CONDEMNED through their Baptism.

Now, how about one that comes to God 'on their own'? Through acceptance of the Holy Spirit into their hearts WITHOUT being Baptized into ANY particular denomination. Are these any less loved by God than those that have been Baptized into 'false religions'? Now, another question: Which denomination IS THE denomination in which one is to BE Baptized INTO?

Now, with these things in mind, how important IS Baptism? Would it be 'better' to serve in an unrighteous religion and be Baptized, or to serve RIGHTEOUSLY and NOT be Baptized? We are talking 'water' here.

Pogo, I am well aware of what the churches teach. But there is much more to the truth than what is often offered by the churches. For we can plainly see through their 'short comings' that they most certainly DON'T have it 'all figured out'.

Blessings, my brother

MEC

And once again, I notice that you didn't reply to my offering concerning the words of Christ offered to those that claim to have done 'many things in His name. The ones that He tells to 'go away from Him for He doesn't even know them'. Who are these? Were they Baptized in His name?

Which is MORE important: Faith or works? And I would ask this: which is more important, being Baptized or LEARNING to 'love our God and our neighbors'?

And Pogo, what about the man that is stranded on the deserted island? Without Baptism, is it IMPOSSIBLE for him to BE SAVED? And which is 'better': to be Baptized into 'false beliefs' or to follow in righteousness WITHOUT Baptism being involved? Once again we speak of 'water'.

I know people like to speak in absolutes. But absolutes are oftentimes able to ONLY limit us in our understanding. For once we 'create' an absolute, then at that point we have cut ourselves off from any other understanding.

And Pogo, the most important thing is that 'without charity' NOTHING so far as ritual means ANYTHING of significance. For obedience for the 'sake' of obedience has NO ability to teach understanding. That is what has caused the 'stumbling block in Christ' for the Jews. They have yet to learn what the example taught. instead they simply learned to be 'followers' of law instead of understanding the PURPOSE of the law. It is no different with those that today seek to obtain the gift offered through 'ritual' instead of understanding WHAT the ritual signifies. For it IS our hearts through which we will be judged.

 

[MarkT]

Imagican

John was sent by the Father to baptize Jesus. Was he sent for nothing? It wasn't until Jesus was baptized that the Father said, "this is my beloved Son.' Perhaps the same thing happens to the believer when he is baptized - God calls him his son. So I wouldn't say baptism is for nothing. Baptism is sufficient to be enrolled in the church; to be called a son.

Your argument is that being dunked in water doesn't necessarily do anything. Well, if that's all it is to you, then you're probably right. But I think it does do something for those who believe. That's not to say the new wineskin for the Holy Spirit isn't created by hearing and faith. Apparently you can receive the new wineskin, and then make an appeal for forgiveness (be baptized in water).

I also understand your frustration. But like I said, Catholics do some things very well. You should go.